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I was kind of wishy-washy on whether I should post this as a new thread or in the "Tarrasque+Magic Jar=Instant Apotheosis?" thread, but when in doubt, always start a new thread.
I'm running a game that is meant to reach epic levels. To give you the basic gist of the story, the continent the players live on is home to a very large forest that is unspeakably tainted by a "rift" in the astral plane that caused aspects of other planes to warp it. Eventually the players will come to find that the cause of this was when other heroes eons ago attempted to save the world from the tarrasque's destruction by 'sealing' it in a pocket dimension. But because the tarrasque is so powerful, the magicks necessary to do so were so volatile that a rift occurred.
Obviously, this somewhat rules out any "Plane Shift" methods of defeating the tarrasque. Which is fine; I felt the "Plane Shift" idea was a bit cheap.
But it does leave me in a bit of a bind. I'm looking for some way that it might be possible to defeat the tarrasque RAW, without having to invent some ridiculous macguffin or be reduced to a convenient Deus Ex Machina.
I'm hoping my players will figure out something pretty clever on their own, but in case they can't, I need a back-up plan. Something they can discover to make it possible. Any ideas?
Well, the aforementioned thread has a couple ideas outside of Magic Jar.
You could also dig into 3.5 material, and basically have them grind out the thing's HP and allow them to Wis it remain dead.
Another idea, would be to have a part of their quest result in depowering the Tarrasque.
as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)
As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
Well, in the other thread about the Tarrasque you mentioned, someone spoke of ability drain.
While I spoke of stirges, this is actually incorrect - they cause damage which the Tarrasque is immune to.
Since the Tarrasque isn't immune to ability drain, that'd be the way to go, actually, specifically constitution, as anything with a CON of 0 is dead (and this is not, IIRC a death effect).
In another thread (this one about magic shenanigans), I mentioned that using a variant oracle (specifically a Juju oracle) meant that you could create undead that weren't inherently evil. While I don't have my Serpent Skull AP (where it appears in the write-up of Juju) I'll re-post the conversation between myself and another here:
* Undead-as-evil worries? Not if you're an Oracle with the Juju mystery (found in Serpent's Skull AP)! Feel free to create entirely non-evil undead! Warning: Pharasma might still dislike you. As in, she will.
Mindless undead made through Spirit Vessels are neutral. Intelligent undead share the alignment of the caster. And the spell to create undead, if done through Spirit Vessels, doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor.
So, again, I don't have my SS AP out right now, but with the Spirit Vessels in Juju, if you (or someone in the party) could create a wraith, that'd be a great way to go about killing the Tarrasque.
The thing is, the save is really low, so it'd be very resistant to it, however, if you simply had said wraith hover in big T's space (as the wraith is incoporeal and can do that), it'll statistically fail one out of every twenty saves (natural 1's). If that's not good enough for you, up the wraith's charisma - the higher the charisma the higher the save. The DC for the wraith's ability is 12+CHA modifier (by extrapolation, since it's CHA-based, the 'typical' wraith has +5 CHA mod and a DC 17), so what you could do is use tricks like wish to enhance the CHA netting a total of +3 from the typical wraith - 21 CHA+5 = 26, total modifier of 8) and, with a long-lasting eagle's splendor, you've got another +3 (IIRC? I'm really not sure) boosting the save to at least 20.
With a headband of charisma that's first been brought to the ethereal plane, then placed around the neck of said wraith, you might get it higher - I don't recall for sure at the moment, but I think it goes up to +8 to CHA netting a nice +4 to the modifier, total DC 24 - still only allowing Big T to fail on a 1 or lower (it's got a 31 fortitude roll)! I'm not sure, but blending a circlet of persuasion into the charisma-enhancing-circlet might up the DC by three (total 27).
The major problem with the three non-wish things is that I'm not certain that the headband and eagle's splendor stack, or that the circlet of persuasion adds to the DC.
Now, you can do this with a normal wraith, too (an evil one) especially if you're able to control it (not a guarantee with the Create Greater Undead spell necessary to do this - look at the bottom of the spell description for the "greater" spell), but you might be setting yourself up to cause even more destruction by enhancing it's DC! That's one biiiiiiiiiiiiiig reason to make the wraith non-evil or (preferably) good.
One final thing to think about: after some CON draining, Big T's fortitude save will start lowering anyway - it'll be an exponentially easier destruction once a few CON-drains hit him. The average CON drain (by dice rolls) is 3, meaning that each hit he'll drop (again, on average) about +1.5 (rounded down) of his fortitude off. If all the things work and stack, you'd have to hit him with four to get him to fail by 2 or less. If the circlet doesn't work (I don't think it does) you'd have to hit him with six. If the headband doesn't stack with the eagle's splendor you'd have to hit him with six drains and if they don't go as high as I'm thinking (the headband only grants a +6) than it's eight. That means (on average) about 160 rounds (sixteen minutes) of staying out of its way before the pace begins to pick up! That's a lot!
Obviously, this is not optimal, but this is one way to definitively kill the Tarrasque - and no wraith will result, because the wraith entry specifically say it only spawns if humanoids are killed. Tarrasque =/= humanoid, ergo no evil spawn. Huzzah!
There were some threads about using somekind a delayed trigger immovable rods to throw into the tarrasq's mouth. Get him to stay still.
Well, the Tarrasque has a 41 STR, so it'd beat the STR-check (DC 30) 20% of the time (roll of 15), and, IIRC, once it's power is broken, the immovable rod ceases functioning (although I could be making that up, I don't remember for sure). Regardless, bestow curse is a better spell to use for that purpose, I think, though you'd have to overcome it's spell resistance, I admit. Also, you'd have to get your GM's permission to create a delayed-trigger immovable rod? I don't know for sure if that's what you mean, or if there's some other way to do that.
ALT: Gain high acid resistance and damage reduction (and probably some spell shenanigans to resist that crushing damage). Get swallowed by Tarrasque. Use immovable rods. Cut your way out. Pose for the Pathfinder Chronicle Portrait.
as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
This might be something awesome for a "new" group of characters to do, while the primary characters are attempting to hold off/contain the damage done by T.
Why doesn't the Tarrasque kill the wraith? It's natural attacks count as epic, so it shouldn't have any issue eating the wraith.
Congratulations on reviving an almost two year old thread
as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
The Sphere of Annihilation can be undone by the will of a god.
The Tarrasque is the Herald of Rovagug. He can return if Rovagug so wills.
For future reference, RAW a witch with the grand hex forced reincarnation can reincarnate a tarrasque (SR does not apply) and then you can just focus on killing something much smaller.
1. Tarrasque regeneration cannot be disabled by any mechanism.
2. The provided table is only for humanoid creatures, for non-humanoid creatures, the DM provides a list of creatures of the same type as the target. The tarrasque is typed as magical beast(godspawn).
Just recreate one of the other godspawn. What a great move.
I was kind of wishy-washy on whether I should post this as a new thread or in the "Tarrasque+Magic Jar=Instant Apotheosis?" thread, but when in doubt, always start a new thread.
I'm running a game that is meant to reach epic levels. To give you the basic gist of the story, the continent the players live on is home to a very large forest that is unspeakably tainted by a "rift" in the astral plane that caused aspects of other planes to warp it. Eventually the players will come to find that the cause of this was when other heroes eons ago attempted to save the world from the tarrasque's destruction by 'sealing' it in a pocket dimension. But because the tarrasque is so powerful, the magicks necessary to do so were so volatile that a rift occurred.
Obviously, this somewhat rules out any "Plane Shift" methods of defeating the tarrasque. Which is fine; I felt the "Plane Shift" idea was a bit cheap.
But it does leave me in a bit of a bind. I'm looking for some way that it might be possible to defeat the tarrasque RAW, without having to invent some ridiculous macguffin or be reduced to a convenient Deus Ex Machina.
I'm hoping my players will figure out something pretty clever on their own, but in case they can't, I need a back-up plan. Something they can discover to make it possible. Any ideas?
could you turn it into a vampire? then it gains vampire weakness?
could you turn it into a vampire? then it gains vampire weakness?I was kind of wishy-washy on whether I should post this as a new thread or in the "Tarrasque+Magic Jar=Instant Apotheosis?" thread, but when in doubt, always start a new thread.
I'm running a game that is meant to reach epic levels. To give you the basic gist of the story, the continent the players live on is home to a very large forest that is unspeakably tainted by a "rift" in the astral plane that caused aspects of other planes to warp it. Eventually the players will come to find that the cause of this was when other heroes eons ago attempted to save the world from the tarrasque's destruction by 'sealing' it in a pocket dimension. But because the tarrasque is so powerful, the magicks necessary to do so were so volatile that a rift occurred.
Obviously, this somewhat rules out any "Plane Shift" methods of defeating the tarrasque. Which is fine; I felt the "Plane Shift" idea was a bit cheap.
But it does leave me in a bit of a bind. I'm looking for some way that it might be possible to defeat the tarrasque RAW, without having to invent some ridiculous macguffin or be reduced to a convenient Deus Ex Machina.
I'm hoping my players will figure out something pretty clever on their own, but in case they can't, I need a back-up plan. Something they can discover to make it possible. Any ideas?
It would return to life in 3 rounds.
It's also not affected by the vampires energy drain.
as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
The Sphere of Annihilation can be undone by the will of a god.
The Tarrasque is the Herald of Rovagug. He can return if Rovagug so wills.
Certainly if you use the Golarion setting. But for people who don't, a sphere of annihilation would work quite well.
Certainly if you use the Golarion setting. But for people who don't, a sphere of annihilation would work quite well.as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
The Sphere of Annihilation can be undone by the will of a god.
The Tarrasque is the Herald of Rovagug. He can return if Rovagug so wills.
Choosing to use a prior printing of a monster to avoid updated rules would be akin to my magus using a prior version of Fencing Grace to spell combat with a rapier while retaining dex-to-damage.
You always use the most recent printing as your reference.
Subtypes would not restrict reincarnation options. A humanoid (human) could easily become a humanoid (reptilian), and a Magical Beast (godspawn) could just as easily lose that subtype.as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
The Sphere of Annihilation can be undone by the will of a god.
The Tarrasque is the Herald of Rovagug. He can return if Rovagug so wills.
For future reference, RAW a witch with the grand hex forced reincarnation can reincarnate a tarrasque (SR does not apply) and then you can just focus on killing something much smaller.1. Tarrasque regeneration cannot be disabled by any mechanism.
2. The provided table is only for humanoid creatures, for non-humanoid creatures, the DM provides a list of creatures of the same type as the target. The tarrasque is typed as magical beast(godspawn).
By RAW, populating the list is DM fiat. Only loose guidance is given, and the DM would be well within his rights to populate the table with creatures of a similar power level and the same type, i.e. Godspawn.
Truly, any means of killing the Tarrasque falls strictly within the realm of DM fiat. The tarrasque is a plot device; not something that dies without explicit approval from the DM.
Certainly if you use the Golarion setting. But for people who don't, a sphere of annihilation would work quite well.as I mentioned in the other thread:
Sphere of Annihilation, 100% RAW (even if there is no RAW way described of getting an artifact, but epic people should be able to)As it is not mentioned as a death affect, or save or whatever and if you are annihilated by it, only the direct intervention of a god can save you.
Edit: there should be an NPC nearby who asks: what happens if an all destroying force meets an immortal monster.
The Sphere of Annihilation can be undone by the will of a god.
The Tarrasque is the Herald of Rovagug. He can return if Rovagug so wills.
Choosing to use a prior printing of a monster to avoid updated rules would be akin to my magus using a prior version of Fencing Grace to spell combat with a rapier while retaining dex-to-damage.
You always use the most recent printing as your reference.
I said nothing of printings. I merely said if you don't use the setting, Rovagug isn't going to mean anything, since Rovagug won't exist in that setting (Probably.)
For example, one of my DMs' settings has the Tarrasque being created by the Mind Flayers as a world-ending WMD. They're not Gods, so they can't just say "REVIVE!" to the Sphere of Annihilation.
Just because a method doesn't work due to lore considerations of the default setting, doesn't mean it won't work in any game.
I said nothing of printings. I merely said if you don't use the setting, Rovagug isn't going to mean anything, since Rovagug won't exist in that setting (Probably.)
For example, one of my DMs' settings has the Tarrasque being created by the Mind Flayers as a world-ending WMD. They're not Gods, so they can't just say "REVIVE!" to the Sphere of Annihilation.
Just because a method doesn't work due to lore considerations of the default setting, doesn't mean it won't work in any game.
The GM always has the right to modify his setting.
That same GM gets final say on the availability of a sphere of annihilation and, if available, what kind of quest the characters would need to obtain one.
The sphere of annihilation is, itself, a plot device. It is only present in a game if the GM puts it there.
Any way to send them to the positive/negative energy plane?
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Okay it's easy to deal with the tarrasque permenantly (though I don't know if this would -kill- it.
Magus (lets say 20) with enervation on it's spell list (a couple of in class ways to do this)+ close range.
--------Thanatopic spell-------- (emphasis)
extend spell (30 hours durration thus can become permenant)
a few days later tarasque has no levels. Permenantly.
May this thread find rest one day. One day.
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I have an idea. they don't kill it. I think it would be a cool idea to have to fight the tarasque over and over again. when brave heroes defeat it they do enough damage to it that will eventually have enough damage to be out for a few decades. then later new heroes must emerge to once again take up the mantle to fight the endless fight with the herald of destruction itself.
Knock it to one HP, send it unconscious, sever all of it's limbs without killing it, leave it a heaping mass of roaring, helpless, anger for all time.
My bad. I think the Soul Bind's the best method, personally.
Sometimes I'm lucky like that.
There are two approaches to such a campaign.
1. Have your players undergo a campaign of process and trials to inflate their powers to mythic/epic levels.
2. Have your players quest for an artifact that can put the Tarrasque to rest. This of course would be the artifact's only purpose and power.
Certainly if you use the Golarion setting. But for people who don't, a sphere of annihilation would work quite well.Even in the Golarion setting, I think it's extremely unlikely that it would recover from the Sphere. It's not just the "will" of a deity that's required, it's their "direct intervention". And Rovagug's ability to directly intervene (on a deific scale) in Golarion has pretty clearly been compromised by his seal, given how he's not blasting creation with his "direct" power in a rampage similar to his usual MO, and has been reduced to squeezing a new spawn through the keyhole every few hundred years.
There's also the fact that he never intervened via resurrection when, say, Xotani got mulched. And that wasn't with anything near as hard to ressurect from as a Sphere of Annihilation, AFAIK. I see no particular evidence that he'd suddenly do so if a different one of his spawn is killed (and so much more permanently).
So yeah, even if a GM is running canon Golarion (in which Spheres of Annihilation explicitly do exist) then if the players can pull off enough Knowledge checks and/or Legend Lore castings and/or whatever else they come up with to satisfy that GM that they ought to have picked up a trail from their research, then it is totally possible to kill the Tarrasque with stuff that has explicitly been stated to be present in the canonical Golarion setting, in a way that the Tarrasque would not be able to recover from in and of itself.
And once so killed, it is IMHO highly doubtful that Rovagug could do anything about it (in his current state). Now, if Rovagug were to break from his seal, then yeah, sure, he could probably resurrect the Tarrasque with a direct application of his divine might. But if Rovagug ever regains the ability to act that directly in Golarion, that means Golarion is about to have waaaaaaaay worse problems to deal with than the Big T.
What if the Tarrasque is a spoiled favorite child?
3. Have the Wizard Magic Jar the tarrasque. Now the wizard gets an unkillable godspawn body while the tarrasques mind dies when the spell ends out of range.There are two approaches to such a campaign.
1. Have your players undergo a campaign of process and trials to inflate their powers to mythic/epic levels.
2. Have your players quest for an artifact that can put the Tarrasque to rest. This of course would be the artifact's only purpose and power.
The wizard could indeed rampage, until the spell ends.
Then the Tarrasque returns from death three rounds later.
There are many ways to kill the Tarrasque. Keeping it dead, however ...
For a nice, simple solution with no dangerous future ramifications or unforeseen side effects, just found an entire city around it dedicated to harvesting its flesh for food and profit.
For a nice, simple solution with no dangerous future ramifications or unforeseen side effects, just found an entire city around it dedicated to harvesting its flesh for food and profit.
Why keep it alive and screaming constantly when you can put it into a peaceful sleep forever?
It's only forever if the Witch never dies.
It's also got a very low chance of working, since it's a save.
It's only forever if the Witch never dies.
It's also got a very low chance of working, since it's a save.
Targeting his (frankly pathetic) +12 Will save is hardly a thing to be worried about for a level 18+ witch.
And as far as living forever, why does it have to be just one witch? Throughout time those in charge of its safekeeping would surely be able to find others with the Eternal Slumber Hex with a high-enough DC to make it work. And that's if they have to be living. Vampires and other undead could potentially pull this trick off and live literally forever.
That's a fair point. Of course, people who WANT the Tarrasque to roam free can always murder the witch/es, but I suppose that's always a danger with any technique that's reliant on something break/killable.
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That's a fair point. Of course, people who WANT the Tarrasque to roam free can always murder the witch/es, but I suppose that's always a danger with any technique that's reliant on something break/killable.
Which opens up a ton of fun storylines.
1. The Witch who used the hex goes mad with power and extorts the kingdom by threatening to end the curse if her demands aren't met.
2. A BBEG plots to kill the witch (or even just get a wish/miracle somehow) and release The Tarrasque anew! Bonus points if he is a cleric of Rovagug.
3. For years the kingdom has been able to find someone who can keep the Tarrasque down but now they can't and they're running out of time before the witch who cast the curse dies.
Use Binding on the witch for some added permanency.
Thinking, though, couldn't you just kill the Tarrasque, and when it regenerates, it'd be awake?
It's only forever if the Witch never dies.
It's also got a very low chance of working, since it's a save.
Targeting his (frankly pathetic) +12 Will save is hardly a thing to be worried about for a level 18+ witch.
And as far as living forever, why does it have to be just one witch? Throughout time those in charge of its safekeeping would surely be able to find others with the Eternal Slumber Hex with a high-enough DC to make it work. And that's if they have to be living. Vampires and other undead could potentially pull this trick off and live literally forever.
This is a perfectly valid and time honored plot device.
A group of individuals passing down the hereditary duty to keep a great evil forever sealed.
Until the day something happens.
Ushio_to_Tora is something similar, in terms of plot.
Use Binding on the witch for some added permanency.
Thinking, though, couldn't you just kill the Tarrasque, and when it regenerates, it'd be awake?
An excellent idea. I had actually forgotten about Binding.
And unfortunately, no.
You know what? I'm actually not sure. I'm leaning more towards no but not heavily. Eternal Slumber says that it can't be woken (with the killing the witch exception, of course), and nothing in the Tarrasque's description helps but still, I'm not sure.
If it doesn't come back to life awake, that's an easy way to make sure there's always another witch. Just Coup De Grace the Tarrasque enough times that you gain all the required levels.