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Rage Prophet, please help


Advice


I have NO idea where to start, too many rage powers and oracle mysteries to choose from. Lame curse is the only thing that seems obvious to me.
Now, Archetypes are complicated to say the least, what's your take in it? It's gonna be a LONG campaign, going to 20th level for sure, what do you guys think?


Kinda hard to say without you giving some details what exactly you want your character to do.

Just a quick word of advice: You should be VERY sure that you want to play a Rage Prophet. The class is pretty weak overall and instead of giving you decent melee power and spellcasting, it might very well end up weakening both aspects way more than the class abilities of the prestige class can make up for.


IMHO, you will want to get to 8th level in EITHER Barb or Oracle, since Rageprophet doesn`t help for Pre-Reqs for Powers (both have higher-power abilities only accessable with higher class levels). That may mean picking a checkpoint mid-progression of Rageprophet where you jump back into one Class to bring it to 8th level, or alternating levels, it doesn`t really matter.

Curses:
Clouded Vision is actually very nice: See out to 60´ after getting by with 30´ for a bit, Blind-Sense 30` (@10th), Blind-Sight 15´(@15th).
Wasting is pretty good and doesn`t overly impact you besides CHA penalties and you look gross.
Unless you go heavy-Oracle (see above) you won`t actually gain the Exhaustion Immunity from Lame, and there are other Fatigue-removal strategies that you can use (ESPECIALLY as an Oracle... get a familiar and craft it a wand of Remove fatigue to use with UMD)

I think Battle Oracle is definitely a solid choice... Surprising Charge is nasty.
(even if you only take 1 Oracle level, Rageprophet should get you to 2 daily usages just on it`s own)

Cool thing about Bones: Bleeding Wounds should work with the Spirit Totem effect that does Negative Energy damage.
Waves is cool, especially with Water sight (cast Fog effects, win vs. everybody but blindsight or watersight)
Stone is VERY workable also, and Flame/Waves give you Elemental Form IV at 13th Oracle level.
(which means if you max out Rage Prophet, you only need 3 Oracle levels to gain access to that)

Have fun!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I built one of these a long time ago, don't remember the build exactly but here's a few tips I found useful with mine.

-The Oracle's curse doesn't just improve with Oracle lvls, with non-oracle lvls it increses at 1/2 speed.

-Look for Barbarian abilities that compliment a high Cha, like the above mentioned spirit totem.

-Extra Rage Power and Extra Revelation are going to be your good friends in regards to feat choices ;-)

-The Lame curse is indead nice and the Barbarian speed boost even offsets the -10ft movement.

-Pick a roleplaying concept to act as a guide. This will help narrow down the incredibly large amount of options this type of character has.

That's all I can remember for now. I'll check my build when I get home and try to remember to post more tomorrow.

If you do pick concept let us know so that we can offer more focussed feedback.


Thanks for the help so far guys. I'm not sure why I have to get to 8th level in one class so far, but ok.

I'll think about the concept, I was thinking about making a kinda drunk barbarian, or something of a seer. It's kinda foggy so far, hehe. I'm probably going with a human from some far away isolated tribe, that listens to the spirits and stuff. But, I gotta say it's hard.

When I read the Rage Prophet I loved the concept and I thought it was VERY powerful, why is it weak, in your opnion?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Xum wrote:

Thanks for the help so far guys. I'm not sure why I have to get to 8th level in one class so far, but ok.

I'll think about the concept, I was thinking about making a kinda drunk barbarian, or something of a seer. It's kinda foggy so far, hehe. I'm probably going with a human from some far away isolated tribe, that listens to the spirits and stuff. But, I gotta say it's hard.

When I read the Rage Prophet I loved the concept and I thought it was VERY powerful, why is it weak, in your opnion?

There's no reason you couldn't combine the two and make a drunken seer.


Spirit totem is tasty AND flavorful. Liked that idea a lot, what other choices would be cool?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Xum wrote:

Thanks for the help so far guys. I'm not sure why I have to get to 8th level in one class so far, but ok.

I'll think about the concept, I was thinking about making a kinda drunk barbarian, or something of a seer. It's kinda foggy so far, hehe. I'm probably going with a human from some far away isolated tribe, that listens to the spirits and stuff. But, I gotta say it's hard.

When I read the Rage Prophet I loved the concept and I thought it was VERY powerful, why is it weak, in your opnion?

You don't have to go to 8th lvl in either class. I'm not really sure what Quandry was referencing.

Something to keep in mind is that Moment of Clarity is only useful once per rage, so that's only one spell (unless you quicken another spell) that will get the bonus. Unless you go with the lame curse, become immune to fatique and exhaustion and are constantly turning the rage on and off. Some DMs may say this is cheesy.


Xum wrote:
I'm not sure why I have to get to 8th level in one class so far, but ok.

I thought I was clear that there are some Rage Powers / Oracle Mysteries that have level requirements.

THe 8th level is actually most relevant to Barbarians, the Oracle Revelations with Oracle-level Pre-Reqs seem to concentrate around 7th level and 11th level - and there´s alot of great Oracle Revelations that don´t have level Pre-Reqs, either...

Here´s some examples of Rage Powers that you need to have (X) Barb Level to take (by Feat or as Class Bonus):
Boasting Taunt (6th)
Beast/Chaos/Fiend/Spirit Totem (6th)
Hurling Charge (6th)
Overbearing Onslaught (6th)
Spirit Steed (6th)
Clear Mind (8th)
Disruptive (8th)
Terrifying Howl (8th)
Unexpected Strike (8th)
Energy Resistance, Greater (8th)
Ferocious Mount, Greater (8th)
Beast/Chaos/Fiend/Spirit Totem, Greater (10th)
Flesh Wound (10th)
Come and Get Me (12th)

The entire point of the Level Pre-Req is that the higher level abilities are more powerful.
If you don´t have the Barb levels to take these, you will never gain the unique abilities that are reserved for high level Barbs, even if your zero/ low-preq Rage Powers will ´scale´ thanks to Rage Prophet (e.g. Rolling Dodge).

Hope that´s more clear. You don´t ´HAVE´ to take more levels in either base class, but given these abilities offer some unique abilities, I think it´s definitely worth it to do so at some point.

EDIT: Some of my previous advice re: Oracle levels required to get high-level Curse benefits isn´t totally accurate, given that I forgot that non-Oracle levels count as 1/2 towards progressing the Curse ´benefits´.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
Xum wrote:
I'm not sure why I have to get to 8th level in one class so far, but ok.

I thought I was clear that there are some Rage Powers / Oracle Mysteries that have level requirements.

THe 8th level is actually most relevant to Barbarians, the Oracle Revelations with Oracle-level Pre-Reqs seem to concentrate around 7th level and 11th level - and there´s alot of great Oracle Revelations that don´t have level Pre-Reqs, either...

Here´s some examples of Rage Powers that you need to have (X) Barb Level to take (by Feat or as Class Bonus):
Boasting Taunt (6th)
Beast/Chaos/Fiend/Spirit Totem (6th)
Hurling Charge (6th)
Overbearing Onslaught (6th)
Spirit Steed (6th)
Clear Mind (8th)
Disruptive (8th)
Terrifying Howl (8th)
Unexpected Strike (8th)
Energy Resistance, Greater (8th)
Ferocious Mount, Greater (8th)
Beast/Chaos/Fiend/Spirit Totem, Greater (10th)
Flesh Wound (10th)
Come and Get Me (12th)

The entire point of the Level Pre-Req is that the higher level abilities are more powerful.
If you don´t have the Barb levels to take these, you will never gain the unique abilities that are reserved for high level Barbs, even if your zero/ low-preq Rage Powers will ´scale´ thanks to Rage Prophet (e.g. Rolling Dodge).

Hope that´s more clear. You don´t ´HAVE´ to take more levels in either base class, but given these abilities offer some unique abilities, I think it´s definitely worth it to do so at some point.

Sorry, I misunderstood. And I agree with you. Seeing as how the earliest you could take a lvl in Rage Prophet is at 7th so you may as well just delay it a little to get a much larger benefit.


I thought Savage seer stacked with both oracle and Barbarian levels for revelations, curses and rage powers. It may not read like that, but I'm pretty sure its the intent at least.


It stacks for the EFFECT of abilities you already have (either scaling bonsues, or powers that get new abilities with level), it DOESN´T count as Class Levels in general for other things, i.e. qualifying for abilities you haven´t taken yet. Somebody at Paizo has clarified this, either on the boards or the FAQ, I can´t remember. Hope I´ve been helpful.


Quandary wrote:
It stacks for the EFFECT of abilities you already have (either scaling bonsues, or powers that get new abilities with level), it DOESN´T count as Class Levels in general for other things, i.e. qualifying for abilities you haven´t taken yet. Somebody at Paizo has clarified this, either on the boards or the FAQ, I can´t remember. Hope I´ve been helpful.

Sure was helpful. But now I do understand when you guys say it's an underpowered Prestige class. Too bad paizo ruled it like that, it's hardly worth it now.


Xum wrote:
I thought Savage seer stacked with both oracle and Barbarian levels for revelations, curses and rage powers. It may not read like that, but I'm pretty sure its the intent at least.

No, it doesn't. It only allows you to use the releveations and rage-powers you already have more effectively. It doesn't grand any additional revelations or rage powers and it doesn't help with the pre-reqs either.

That's basically why I think the Rage Prophet is not all that good. You don't get releveations or rage powers, not even additional rage rounds. You must spend feats on all of those and that's on top of the usual feats a melee/caster-Hybrid needs anyway (like Power Attack, Combat Casting, maybe toughness and so on).

The class abilities of the prestige class simply don't make up for the loss of your two base classes' abilities. The Rage Prophet has great flavor for sure, but for overall usefulness a simple oracle with a level or two as barbarian is just way better. Or even a Cleric (or Inquisitor) with the Rage Domain.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I don't know, I still think it's a very good prestige class. You still get to be a pretty handy melee combatant that gets to rage and cast spells, eventually casting personal spells without needing to end your rage. That's a lot of bonuses that can stack quickly.


I believe that it's very COOL, but that's about it. It doesn't increase your spell casting at full efect, you lose 3 levels. You don't get good BaB, no Rage powers nor revelations, and doesn't help with the prereqs.... yeah, it became kinda lame after you guys told me it doesn't even work for pre req.


Kieviel wrote:
I don't know, I still think it's a very good prestige class. You still get to be a pretty handy melee combatant that gets to rage and cast spells, eventually casting personal spells without needing to end your rage. That's a lot of bonuses that can stack quickly.

Casting Healing Spells on yourself as needed is nice, sure. But if my life depends on it, I'd just drop out of rage and heal myself anyway (or burn my moment of clarity).

As for buffs, you'll want to use them before you even enter melee - or rage for that matter. Going into rage and then casting buff spells is a total waste of your (pretty limited) number of rage rounds.
So I don't really see a big benefit there.

When the Prstige Class was announced beforethe release of the APG, I found the idea VERY interesting. But the actual class is lacking. I was more hoping for maybe a few cool prophet-only rage powers and/or revelations.


Quandary, you SURE that one of the Devs said something about this? I don't need a link, just your word will sufice.


It's not like a FAQ or something, it's reading comprehension. It doesn't say "Levels in rage prophet count as both oracle and barbarian levels for meeting pre-requisites for rage powers and mysteries"... so they don't.

Osirion

I understand that you have to have levels in Barbarian to take certain rage powers, but is this true for Oracle Revelations? It seems to say "you must be X level to take this revelation" which to me could be total level.
This would mean that Rage Prophets could take extra revelations via the feat and then get the extra level bonus for them from rage prophet, thus making it a workable PrC once again.


Snagglelock wrote:
It's not like a FAQ or something, it's reading comprehension. It doesn't say "Levels in rage prophet count as both oracle and barbarian levels for meeting pre-requisites for rage powers and mysteries"... so they don't.

Maybe not FAQ, but Errata for sure. I mean, you do end up casting 6 level spell and with BAB 16, not that bad. But then again you would be better just multiclassing, or just taking a few levels in Rage Prophet than the whole progression. Even if it counted as Half Level for prereq purposes would be WAY better than it is now.

I understand the fact, and I wholeheartly agree, that PrCs aren't supposed to be BETTER than base classes, but in this case, it's just plain worse.


I actually wondered that too, all of the oracle revelations say "When you're X level, it also does this". They never say Oracle level, but I thought it was wishful thinking that it was actually character level. Otherwise some of those revelations are insane for dips or multiclassing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Another issue is that the Rage Prophet bonus spells are pretty much worthless. The Oracle bonus spell list for your mystery is likely far more suitable for an armed combatant, because they ones the prestige class gives you are far more suited for an NPC.

If I'm in a group and they're counting on me for speak with dead or see invisible, then we're in trouble.


Snagglelock wrote:
I actually wondered that too, all of the oracle revelations say "When you're X level, it also does this". They never say Oracle level, but I thought it was wishful thinking that it was actually character level. Otherwise some of those revelations are insane for dips or multiclassing.

But the Rage Prophet DOES scale those abilities up, just like for Rage Powers like Rolling Dodge.

This is besides that Rage Prophet counts fully towards Curse progression, while other levels (Barb/other) count 1/2 towards that.

Quote:
A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the effect of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the effect of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.

It`s all right there.

BTW, another interesting path is going Oracle1/ClericX/BarbX/RageProphetX and progressing Cleric casting instead.
You get Domain powers as well (which you won`t progress, but still good), and your Domain Bonus spells...
Channel Energy unfortunately doesn`t stack, but if you took Life Oracle and the Cleric Domain:Healing, those Swift Action maximized Cure Spells seem pretty tasy... Regardless of using Cleric or not, Life Oracle Channel is seemingly `full` Cleric Positive Energy Channel, so you should be able to take Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, etc (vs. Outsiders/Elementals), and you can even be an Evil Healer if you want...

Snagglelock wrote:
Another issue is that the Rage Prophet bonus spells are pretty much worthless. The Oracle bonus spell list for your mystery is likely far more suitable for an armed combatant, because they ones the prestige class gives you are far more suited for an NPC.

Thankfully, they`re all frosting on top. You still get Mystery bonus spells, because that`s how Spontaneous Casting works when you progress it via a PrC, you gain `spells known` from the Base Casting Class if you are a Spontaneous Caster.

@Xum: I`m definitely sure. linky

Yes, non-qualifying for level-based Pre-Req Powers/Revelations is tough,
but my point stands that you CAN trivially qualify for decent mid-level powers.
And not going all the way thru Rage Prophe is certainly a valid path as well,
but going all the way thru CAN definitely work as well...

You will have: awesome Saves, Spirit Guide ends up giving a NASTY bonus on one attack/save/skill per Rage (which equals your Rage Prophet level vs fey/outsider/undead/incorporeal). Re-starting Rage via Fatigue immunity/removal to re-use Spirit Guide means you REALLY shouldn`t be whining about your non-Full BAB. Oh yeah, Ghost Touch as Swift/Immediate, for more attack/AC boosts vs. relevant stuff. I mean, Paladin Smite is much pickier and much stingier in how much you can use it. And this is on top of the other scaling bonuses you can get, e.g. from Rage Powers, which you can apply all to one attack/whatever, or split them up to have a Full Attack potentially MORE devastating than just a Full BAB dude.

The most frustrating thing is probably SEEMS to be the non-progression of Rage Rounds, but when you actually look at it, you are gaining MORE Rage Rounds than a Barbarian ever could (2/level) when you compare the Rage Rounds you get out of converting spell slots, even with the non-full Spellcasting progression. If you figure the number of spell level-slots needed to equal 2/level (normal Barbarian), you don`t really need to sacrifice ALL that many, at least if you realize you aren`t playing a Full Caster anymore.

Andoran

Quandary wrote:
You still get Mystery bonus spells, because that`s how Spontaneous Casting works when you progress it via a PrC, you gain `spells known` from the Base Casting Class if you are a Spontaneous Caster.

Has there been a definite FAQ about this ?

I ask because I just had a look at a thread where the topic was debated for Sorcerers and people were divided as whether you also gain the bonus spells (from bloodline, mystery ...) when you gain the additional level through the PrC or whether the "spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster)" refers only to the tables of Spells Known of the base casting class.


The black raven wrote:
Quandary wrote:
You still get Mystery bonus spells, because that`s how Spontaneous Casting works when you progress it via a PrC, you gain `spells known` from the Base Casting Class if you are a Spontaneous Caster.

Has there been a definite FAQ about this ?

I ask because I just had a look at a thread where the topic was debated for Sorcerers and people were divided as whether you also gain the bonus spells (from bloodline, mystery ...) when you gain the additional level through the PrC or whether the "spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster)" refers only to the tables of Spells Known of the base casting class.

Not sure I'm following this.

And the thing abou the Oracle levels is pretty clear that those are oracle levels. There is something one of the Devs said about when class level is said in a class ability, it refers to that class. When there is something diferent they specify, like th 1/2 from other classes counting for oracle curses.


The black raven wrote:
Quandary wrote:
You still get Mystery bonus spells, because that`s how Spontaneous Casting works when you progress it via a PrC, you gain `spells known` from the Base Casting Class if you are a Spontaneous Caster.

Has there been a definite FAQ about this ?

I ask because I just had a look at a thread where the topic was debated for Sorcerers and people were divided as whether you also gain the bonus spells (from bloodline, mystery ...) when you gain the additional level through the PrC or whether the "spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster)" refers only to the tables of Spells Known of the base casting class.

The rules for PrC`s in fact DON`T reference any Table (though that IS done in other sections of the rules), or even reference any specific Class Ability (e.g. Spellcasting) as the only valid source within a class, rather, it just says `spells known`.

If you were looking at thread I`m thinking of, you`re aware that IF one hypothesized that Bloodline Bonus Spells don`t count as spells known, then you CAN`T CAST THEM, because the rules for spontaneous casting are clear that when you spend a spell slot to cast a spell, you can only cast spells you know.
I feel like somebody at Paizo HAS spoken directly to the issue, but I can`t remember where. The only FAQ related to this is clarifying that Wizards advancing via a PrC don`t gain the 2 free spells in their spellbook, but that is distinct from Spontaneous Casters specifically ALSO gaining `spells known` from the base class (which SKR quotes in that FAQ). The rules seem pretty clear to me though, `spells known` (gained from the base class) ISN`T restricted to a Table or any specific Class Feature, and you gain all spells known.

Xum wrote:
And the thing abou the Oracle levels is pretty clear that those are oracle levels. There is something one of the Devs said about when class level is said in a class ability, it refers to that class. When there is something diferent they specify, like th 1/2 from other classes counting for oracle curses.

OK, here`s what the rules say:

Quote:
A rage prophet's class level stacks with barbarian levels for determining the EFFECT of rage powers, and with oracle levels for determining the EFFECT of oracle revelations and his oracle's curse. This does not grant additional abilities.

Pretty damn clear that it is only affecting the level-scaling effect of Rage Powers/Revelations/Curse and nothing else. Sure, it didn`t say `nothing else`, but it didn`t say `you don`t graduate to becoming a deity` either.

As I said, I definitely believe Rage Prophet is still viable within it`s limitations, you just need to know what you`re getting into and have a good idea on how to make it work.


Quandary wrote:
The black raven wrote:
Quandary wrote:
You still get Mystery bonus spells, because that`s how Spontaneous Casting works when you progress it via a PrC, you gain `spells known` from the Base Casting Class if you are a Spontaneous Caster.

Has there been a definite FAQ about this ?

I ask because I just had a look at a thread where the topic was debated for Sorcerers and people were divided as whether you also gain the bonus spells (from bloodline, mystery ...) when you gain the additional level through the PrC or whether the "spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster)" refers only to the tables of Spells Known of the base casting class.

The rules for PrC`s in fact DON`T reference any Table (though that IS done in other sections of the rules), or even reference any specific Class Ability (e.g. Spellcasting) as the only valid source within a class, rather, it just says `spells known`.

If you were looking at thread I`m thinking of, you`re aware that IF one hypothesized that Bloodline Bonus Spells don`t count as spells known, then you CAN`T CAST THEM, because the rules for spontaneous casting are clear that when you spend a spell slot to cast a spell, you can only cast spells you know.
I feel like somebody at Paizo HAS spoken directly to the issue, but I can`t remember where. The only FAQ related to this is clarifying that Wizards advancing via a PrC don`t gain the 2 free spells in their spellbook, but that is distinct from Spontaneous Casters specifically ALSO gaining `spells known` from the base class (which SKR quotes in that FAQ). The rules seem pretty clear to me though, `spells known` (gained from the base class) ISN`T restricted to a Table or any specific Class Feature, and you gain all spells known.

Xum wrote:
And the thing abou the Oracle levels is pretty clear that those are oracle levels. There is something one of the Devs said about when class level is said in a class ability, it refers to that class. When there is something diferent they specify, like th 1/2 from
...

Wasn't arguing that anymore mate. I agree with you, although now I don't believe they are any good. Was trying to understand what you guys were talking about, but I'm kinda sick and my brain ain't working so good, so...

Andoran

I would first like to say that I greatly appreciate Quandary's posts in this thread as they will be of much benefit to one of the players I will GM in Jade Regent and who wishes also to go the Rage Prophet way.

And that appreciation stays true even if we disagree on one specific point.

Quandary wrote:
If you were looking at thread I`m thinking of, you`re aware that IF one hypothesized that Bloodline Bonus Spells don`t count as spells known, then you CAN`T CAST THEM, because the rules for spontaneous casting are clear that when you spend a spell slot to cast a spell, you can only cast spells you know.

Same thread I was reading and I do not agree with your take on it because, for me and with all due respect, the fact that there is a table with the title <Class> Spells Known is a stronger point than saying "spells you know" = "Spells Known". Also you will notice in the description of the Spells class feature of the Oracle that the Cure or Inflict spells are explicitely "added to her list of spells known" while spells granted by the Mystery are not.

My reasoning (concerning Sorcerers) is that I do not see why should you get extra spells as if you were progressing as a Sorcerer of your Bloodline but none of the other advantages that go with such a progression. To me it does not make sense. Obviously you believe otherwise, which is quite OK. After all, such disagreement is what encourages developers to write FAQs that clarify the RAW for the benefit of all players.

I was wondering about there being a FAQ because you described your opinion on this as proven fact while there is still a debate about it AFAIK.

Xum, I hope you will get better soon.


Actually, here is the last thing I will say about that topic... Rage Prophet, Oracle, and Sorceror all contain this wording in connection to their Mystery/Bloodline spells which are granted by each class:

Quote:

At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6. They cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a rage prophet learns an additional spell from his spirit guide. These spells are in addition to those listed in Table 2-6: Oracle Spells Known.

At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

That pretty much confirms that they are the same thing as what is listed on the table, i.e. Spells Known, since if they weren`t they wouldn`t need to be called out as `in addition` to that Table (at least, any more than some completely unrelated ability would, say Barbarian DR progression). Thankfully, if they`re also Spells Known, you can actually cast them. :-) (Oracle itself doesn`t really have much verbiage, beyond that they are `Bonus Spells`

Anyhow, I hacked together a mockup of what a 12th character level Rage Prophet might look like, not going into all the details, but enough to compare to other classes, and to show what Class Abilities it has in play.

Spoiler:
Oracle1/Barb6/RageProphet5 = Character Level 12

6d12+5d10+1d8+24(CON) = 100 HPs + 12 Rage HPs (Rage Prophet doesn`t affect Rage HPs)
vs. 108 + 36 Rage HPs for Full Barb vs. 95 HP for Fighter (no Favored, Toughness, etc)
+9/+4 BAB = 3 BAB behind Full BAB
+8/+4/+7 Base Saves (pre-Stats) = practically the same as 2 good saves in single class

Casting as 4th level Oracle (6+1 1st, 3+1 2nd Level Spells)
6 known Orisons, 3 known 1st + Enlarge Person + CLW, 1 known 2nd + Fog Cloud +CMW
+2 of (See Invisible, Spectral Hand, Spiritual Weapon) from Rage Prophet
+1/day SLA of the following (dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand)

Caster Level = 10 +CON for Concentration (+DC in 2 more RageProphet levels)

Oracle Curse @ 9th level:
Speed lower by 10 (5 if Small) NET SPEED: 30` w/ Barbarian Fast Speed
Speed never reduced by Encumbrance (but still by Armor until +1 RageProphet level)
Immune to Fatigue (allowing Rage cycling without Fatigue)

Barb Level for Rage Power Effects (not Pre-Req): 11
Oracle Level for Revelation Effects (not Pre-Req): 6

Oracle Revelations 1+2 Feats: Surprising Charge (2x/day),
Battlesight (2x Init, always act in Surprise Round),
Battlefield Clarity (2/day re-roll status effect saves, with +4 bonus)

Rage Powers: 3+1 Feat:
Moment of Clarity, Knockback, Strength Surge (+11),
Reckless Abandon (+3 att/-3 AC)? *OR* Animal Fury (Bite attack + Grapple bonus)?

Rage Rounds = 14+CON

Elemental Fury: While Raging, Energy damage >=6 dmg (barb level) grants you 2 rage rounds.
(Alternate Barb Variant in place of Trap Sense... helps for Rage Rounds without using Spells)
(NOTE: Rage Prophet DOESN`T scale other Class Abilities including Archetype abilities)

Uncanny Dodge, Imp Uncanny Dodge: never Flat-Footed or Flanked (except level 10+ Rogues)

Feats: 6 + possible Human bonus Feat or Skill Focus from Half-Elf, etc.
1x Rage Power
2x Revelations
Power Attack
Cleave
Hvy Armor Proficiency / Blindfight / Eldritch Heritage (needs Skill Focus) / Lunge?

Raging Healer: Can cast cure spells on himself while raging, without using clarity of mind.

Indomitable Caster: Add CON bonus on concentration checks.

Ragecaster: Add his barbarian level to his caster level.

Spirit Guardian:
1/Rage Guidance (+1 att/ac/save) or +2 vs. fey/outsider/undead/ncorporeal creature.
As a swift action, the rage prophet can spend 1 round of rage (whether he is raging or not)
to give his armor and weapons the ghost touch property for 1 round.

You can look at Rage Prophet to see what other abilities he would get at higher level, basically CON to Spell DC, spell slots to Rage Rounds, Guidance = full Rage Prophet level (vs. 1/2) vs. special enemy types, and Greater Rage. Another Mystery would also allow Swift Action Cure Spells.


The black raven wrote:

I would first like to say that I greatly appreciate Quandary's posts in this thread as they will be of much benefit to one of the players I will GM in Jade Regent and who wishes also to go the Rage Prophet way.

And that appreciation stays true even if we disagree on one specific point.

Quandary wrote:
If you were looking at thread I`m thinking of, you`re aware that IF one hypothesized that Bloodline Bonus Spells don`t count as spells known, then you CAN`T CAST THEM, because the rules for spontaneous casting are clear that when you spend a spell slot to cast a spell, you can only cast spells you know.

Same thread I was reading and I do not agree with your take on it because, for me and with all due respect, the fact that there is a table with the title <Class> Spells Known is a stronger point than saying "spells you know" = "Spells Known". Also you will notice in the description of the Spells class feature of the Oracle that the Cure or Inflict spells are explicitely "added to her list of spells known" while spells granted by the Mystery are not.

My reasoning (concerning Sorcerers) is that I do not see why should you get extra spells as if you were progressing as a Sorcerer of your Bloodline but none of the other advantages that go with such a progression. To me it does not make sense. Obviously you believe otherwise, which is quite OK. After all, such disagreement is what encourages developers to write FAQs that clarify the RAW for the benefit of all players.

I was wondering about there being a FAQ because you described your opinion on this as proven fact while there is still a debate about it AFAIK.

Xum, I hope you will get better soon.

Thanks buddy. I'm still trying to figure out what you are arguing about, hehe.


maybe black raven can explain it better :-)

FYI, when I looked at the Bones Oracle/Spirit Totem combo, Bones just didn`t really have any more revelations that were super useful beyond the Bleeding Wounds one that works with Spirit Totem, although False Life and Circle of Death are nice to have as bonus Mystery spells (possibly controversial). I think Bones Mystery would work very well (along w/ Spirit Totem) if you went more Oracle-heavy, and Barbarian light, though, getting you better spells earlier and probably abilities like Channel Commmand Undead, etc.


Quandary wrote:

maybe black raven can explain it better :-)

FYI, when I looked at the Bones Oracle/Spirit Totem combo, Bones just didn`t really have any more revelations that were super useful beyond the Bleeding Wounds one that works with Spirit Totem, although False Life and Circle of Death are nice to have as bonus Mystery spells (possibly controversial). I think Bones Mystery would work very well (along w/ Spirit Totem) if you went more Oracle-heavy, and Barbarian light, though, getting you better spells earlier and probably abilities like Channel Commmand Undead, etc.

Yeah, a friend convinced me that going more into Oracle is better. Cause of the spells and stuff. But I think I would go battle. 1 bleed is just too little to worry about.

What do you think would be good rage powers, revelations and feats for a character like that? You seem pretty good at that.

Andoran

Xum wrote:

Yeah, a friend convinced me that going more into Oracle is better. Cause of the spells and stuff. But I think I would go battle. 1 bleed is just too little to worry about.

What do you think would be good rage powers, revelations and feats for a character like that? You seem pretty good at that.

I am also very interested in such a build. My player wants to play a half-orc Barbarian who lived in a gladiators' school and had visions of Gorum. And she seems really set on the Rage Prophet with the role of a frontliner. The Battle mystery is the most straightforward for this, but the Metal mystery seems quite good too.


Xum wrote:

Yeah, a friend convinced me that going more into Oracle is better. Cause of the spells and stuff. But I think I would go battle. 1 bleed is just too little to worry about.

What do you think would be good rage powers, revelations and feats for a character like that? You seem pretty good at that.

I think the Barb-heavy route is viable, especially when you look at getting 8th/10th level+ Rage Powers by dipping back in Barbarian, but if you go Oracle heavy, you can depend more on Casting (needing more CHA, at least enough to Cast the spells, eventually), you may want to pick up stuff like Command Undead Channel or Regular Channeling (Bones/Life).

You can see the Mystery options for each Mystery, if you are trying to gish it out with not many Barb levels, the Mystery that gives free Weapon Focus/Crit/Greater Weapon Focus may be good. Metal seems to be good about all around melee numbers and damage, Battle has the awesome instantaneous movement (interrupt allowing full attack) and the self-Cure Spells as Swift, amongst other stuff. Going Oracle heavy just means you won`t get the Barbarian level-pre req powers ever, so you want to check whatever books you are using for good Rage Powers that don`t have such requirements. (hint: no Come and Get Me) From mid/high level, probably the best Rage Powers to spend a Feat on will be the scaling ones (i.e. attack bonus, AC bonus, etc) because that is when those Powers are the strongest (thanks to scaling with Rage Prophet)... Though you can equally say that the other good ones you would have already picked up :-). Regular Feats will likely be attractive/crucial as well.

If you gain a Natural Attack somehow, I think using a Reach Weapon and having Lunge is interesting: you threaten both areas, and you can increase the reach of the Bite (etc) by 5` to attack into the Reach Weapon`s normal area (to use all attacks).

Hope that`s helpful... If you`re really turned off of Rage Prophet, you can always just do a dip in Oracle.
I wish they hadn`t REQUIRED Moment of Clarity as a pre-req, if you`re willing to live without that capability, it seems like you should be able to enter Rage Prophet and allocate that Rage Power elsewhere if you want to. Or just give you the option to pick up Moment of Clarity at later levels, when you have more spells worth casting. Good house-rule, in any case.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Xum wrote:
Quandary wrote:
What do you think would be good rage powers, revelations and feats for a character like that? You seem pretty good at that.

My Barbarian 2 / Oracle 4 is ready to go into Rage Prophet. His mysteries are weapon mastery, war sight and battlefield clarity (surprising charge is also good). Feats are power attack, extra msytery, improved initiative and furious focus. This is a PFS character, so it is more self-reliant than I would likely create for a home game.


The main problem I see with going the Barb Heavy route is that in the end you will end up with BaB 16 only, and very late. Sure, you will get some neat rage powers, but nothing fantastic. Now, if you go Oracle heavy, you get 7th level casting and 15 Bab. I think it easily compensate for the rage powers. it's THREE more levels in casting, that's quite a lot.

Now, help me out here.

I'm going with half elf, cause of the dual bonus on classes AND the fact that I have to maximize having high Charisma, SO, I'm gonna get Eldritch Heritage (Orc) to suplement my fighting. What do you guys think?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Xum wrote:
I'm going with half elf, cause of the dual bonus on classes AND the fact that I have to maximize having high Charisma, SO, I'm gonna get Eldritch Heritage (Orc) to suplement my fighting. What do you guys think?

I would not go with a race other than human for any class which has limited spells known. The human favored class bonus of extra spells known is invaluable to oracles and sorcerers.

Obviously, the number of levels you are planning to take in each class has an impact, but you would receive two extra first level spells and an extra second level spell if you take six levels of oracle.


sieylianna wrote:
Xum wrote:
I'm going with half elf, cause of the dual bonus on classes AND the fact that I have to maximize having high Charisma, SO, I'm gonna get Eldritch Heritage (Orc) to suplement my fighting. What do you guys think?

I would not go with a race other than human for any class which has limited spells known. The human favored class bonus of extra spells known is invaluable to oracles and sorcerers.

Obviously, the number of levels you are planning to take in each class has an impact, but you would receive two extra first level spells and an extra second level spell if you take six levels of oracle.

I would take 8 Oracle Levels.

Thing is, if I take human, I'll lose 10 Hp or Skill point. And I would have to use my feat for skill focus, so I could take Eldritch Heritage.

Andoran

Xum wrote:
I'm going with half elf, cause of the dual bonus on classes AND the fact that I have to maximize having high Charisma, SO, I'm gonna get Eldritch Heritage (Orc) to suplement my fighting. What do you guys think?

Sooo many good ideas here that I can pilfer for my player. She wants to play a half-orc but who is also almost a half-elf and she does this because she is enamored with a character in a game or book who is described this way and not because of any minmaxing I am aware of.

Thus your idea of taking a half-elf and giving it Eldritch Heritage (Orc) sounds just great for it. I am beginning to wonder if you did not have the same source of inspiration.

Please keep the good ideas coming :-)


The black raven wrote:
Xum wrote:
I'm going with half elf, cause of the dual bonus on classes AND the fact that I have to maximize having high Charisma, SO, I'm gonna get Eldritch Heritage (Orc) to suplement my fighting. What do you guys think?

Sooo many good ideas here that I can pilfer for my player. She wants to play a half-orc but who is also almost a half-elf and she does this because she is enamored with a character in a game or book who is described this way and not because of any minmaxing I am aware of.

Thus your idea of taking a half-elf and giving it Eldritch Heritage (Orc) sounds just great for it. I am beginning to wonder if you did not have the same source of inspiration.

Please keep the good ideas coming :-)

That's the gist of it actually. Not from a game or book, it's cause I'll be replacing one of my characters, who is an Elf, with his son. Who was born from a visit to Barbaric lands where he met an Half-Orc oracle .... and you know how this things go ;)

But I'm still in need of advice for feats, rage powers, revelations and traits, if u guys could help me :)


Sieylanna´s Rage Powers are my favorites for Battle also, more or less: war sight, battlefield clarity, surprising charge, and weapon mastery (which is better at higher levels via scaling). I would also say that once you are high enough level to have lots of spells, the Battlefield Healing one (or whatever) will be a good one, Swift Action self-heals are great - and that helps if you feel your HPs are lower than you´d like (such as from not having as many favored class: HPs).

In the build I posted, I was leaving it very open to be a Half-Elf just because of the Skill Focus for Eldritch Heritage, 2 favored classes, and other side benefits like Saves vs. sleep and low-light vision. THe only thing is, Half-Elf doesn´t actually have ANY special benefits for EITHER Barb or Oracle, so it will be just pure HPs. At least if you went Barb-heavy, you don´t really have any problem with HPs, and I don´t think Oracle gimps that too much either.

On the other hand, if you look at Half-Orc, besides their normal benefits, you can get toothy (giving extra attack from level 1, potentially saving a Feat/Rage Power e.g. Animal Fury or Fiend Totem). An extra attack, even secondary in combo with your weapons is a great way to make slightly lagging BAB not matter. Half-Orcs also have a great benefit for favored class: Barbarian - extra Rage Rounds, which you will be lacking if you go Barb lite (though if you go REALLY Barb lite, you obviously don´t get many favored class benefits).

That is really the main problem with going Oracle-heavy: your lack of Rage Rounds. If you go Barb heavy (e.g. 5 levels by the time you enter RP), you really DO have enough Rage Rounds IMHO. Rage Prophet eventually lets you convert spells into Rage Rounds, but that ability unfortunately comes pretty late into the PrC - given that you give up something to get the Rage Rounds, I don´t know why it wasn´t granted earlier, but that´s how it is... Going Oracle-heavy, I could definitely see you wanting to take Extra Rage Rounds via Feat, which is obviously far from optimal.

Human probably is a very solid choice, the bonus Feat helps (though as mentioned, you will either be getting Skill Focus like Half-Elves get, or buying Animal Fury or Beast/Fiend Totem to get extra attacks like Half-Orcs can get, so it´s not really any net benefit), and their favored Class for BOTH Barbarian and Oracle is nice (bonus to Superstitious if you go that route, or bonus spell known at max level -1). That ties into the subject that you weren´t understanding before :-), namely that (at least in my opinion) PrC´s let you gain spells known from the base casting class, so you will gain the Mystery Bonus Spells (at least by my take on it), which is pretty important for spells known. All but the 1st Mystery Spell are also gained immediately when you pick up a new Spell Level, unlike Sorcerors (I have no idea why, probably they realized that sucks for Sorcerors and didn´t want to repeat it, but didn´t bother to Errata Sorcerors either).

I´m not sure if you were planning to take the whole Eldritch Heritage series or not, nor am I familiar with the Orc Bloodline... With just the 1st feat, I think Arcane´s Familiar option is very strong, but if Orc works for you, go for it (and it sounds like it re-enforces your character background as well). A Familiar is nice for UMD usage, which since you were concerned about HPs, can be using Cure Wands. If somebody else in your party has Craft Wand, you can collaborate to make Cure X Wounds wands using your knowledge of those spells.

Re: Barb/Oracle-heavy, for Barb-heavy I don´t find the BAB that much of a concern... You get a bunch of att-bonuses in different forms, after all, and things like Natural Attacks can make it less important anyways. It also deosn´t have Rage Round issues. Oracle-heavy will have more spells, but if you are going Rage Prophet, you will be less effective as a Full Caster in the first place... While if you are casting lots of spells, you arne´t fighting, which is the point of Rage Prophet. In my mind, it´s better to be happy with lower spell progression and just max that out with your combat synergy. Going Oracle-heavy also NEEDS more CHA, even though you will lag full Oracles in the Casting game (especially before you can add CON to DC), which will further weaken your melee.

Anyhow, both paths are proably workable, I personally just find Barbarian better, especially when you can qualify for the awesome 8th/10th/12th level Rage Powers. It´s also kind of fun, when , after you´ve by far concentrated on melee, you eventually gain CON to DC, so you can rock DCs on par or higher with FulL Casters with spells like Flame Strike - your Spell Levels won´t be equal, but the DCs will be equal or higher... SO you can pick up some blast spells, or Save or Suck spells, at high level for when melee just isn´t possible, or is less effective. Obviously Oracle-heavy Rage Prophets have even more spells to apply that too, but for them it´s more like even though they are concentrating on that more, they suck at compared to full Oracles for most of the time, while Barb-heavy RP´s don´t pretend to be good at that for most of the game, and then get an awesome bonus when they finally get that CON to DC. Eldritch Knight is probably very workable for your post-Rage Prophet progression, either way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

One other thing, if you aren't creating a Pathfinder Society character, you can use the Magical Knack trait to offset two lost caster levels due to being a barbarian.

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