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Coordinated Charge "Am I reading this right?"


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
UCB page 93 wrote:

Coordinated Charge (Combat, Teamwork)

You are an expert at leading your allies into the fray.
Prerequisites: You have at least two other teamwork feats,base attack bonus +10.
Benefit: When an ally with this feat charges a creature that is no further away from you than your speed, you can, as an immediate action, charge that creature. You must be able to follow all of the normal charge rules.

OK, so am I reading this right? It seems to make no mention whether or not this uses up your normal turn if you take advantage of a coordinated charge but only says you use an immediate action.

Now if that is the case I would house rule it so fast that it uses up a normal charge because even if it does use up a normal charge this is a devastating teamwork feat.

Imagine being the GM, create a squad of Dragoons (total of 6) who all have this feat, mounted and also the spirited charge feat against a group of PCs of equal level and numbers. The highest initiative Dragoon charges one of the PCs hits and then one after another they charge that PC until that PC goes down all in one turn.

Now if all those others still get their normal actions then that just spells doom, I hope though that I am wrong. However, even if I am wrong this could be a very nasty tactic especially if each of those Dragoons were wearing Rhino Hide Armor.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You are reading it right.

It has high prereqs, and is very good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Although you are forgetting that the swift action of the charger's next turn is used up by the immediate action if it's out of their turn.

So only one massed charge.

Good luck fitting all those horses in a small space...


Cheapy wrote:

Although you are forgetting that the swift action of the charger's next turn is used up by the immediate action if it's out of their turn.

So only one massed charge.

Good luck fitting all those horses in a small space...

Ah but perhaps the cavaliers taught their mounts the feat Dragon Style. That could at least give some more leeway (being able to charge through allied squares and ignore difficult terrain).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Although you are forgetting that the swift action of the charger's next turn is used up by the immediate action if it's out of their turn.

So only one massed charge.

Good luck fitting all those horses in a small space...

Ah but perhaps the cavaliers taught their mounts the feat Dragon Style. That could at least give some more leeway (being able to charge through allied squares and ignore difficult terrain).

Cavalry formation does that much better, and can count as a prereq for this feat in question...hmm.

Can you even make your mount move if you take the charge action?


Cheapy wrote:
Can you even make your mount move if you take the charge action?

oh snap!

Shadow Lodge

I don't see how this feat is supposed to work. Someone's almost guaranteed to block the charge.


Can you use spring attack with a charge? In that case that would make the situation I described work.


Cheapy wrote:

Although you are forgetting that the swift action of the charger's next turn is used up by the immediate action if it's out of their turn.

So only one massed charge.

Good luck fitting all those horses in a small space...

True, however if they still get to take actions after their immediate then they are already there and could attack.

OK how about something even better? You have barbarian who not only have what I described as feats but also charging hurler while using weapons of returning.

If I were to use such tactics however it would only be when I am being presented with players who are being way to challenging.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lion Shaman Druid with a Cavalier teammate who gives this to all allies.

Pouncing powerful kitties of dooooooooom.


Ride-By-Attack would work fine, and leave room for the next charger.

The important question is, is your mount able to move without having the Coordinated Charge feat itself?


Cheapy wrote:

Lion Shaman Druid with a Cavalier teammate who gives this to all allies.

Pouncing powerful kitties of dooooooooom.

You killed Kenny! You Bastards!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards Subscriber

We have a gnome cavalier in our Legacy of Fire game using this feat along with his tactics ability. He shares the teamwork feat with everyone in 30' of him and it works very well. Two or three folks usually get a charge off near the start of a fight and the fighter and barbarian LOVE this so much as it helps get them in melee range for a full attack.


It seems very powerful to me, I wonder wether just the immediate move wouldn't have been better. On the other hand if you take into account dimension door tactics already allowing similar tactics and the higher usefulness of swift actions for all classes in PF it might not be that terrible. I guess I'll try it on NPCs and see wether the players cry foul.


This seems to obsolete the 15th level cavalier ability that does the sane thing.

Grand Lodge

Zen79 wrote:

Ride-By-Attack would work fine, and leave room for the next charger.

The important question is, is your mount able to move without having the Coordinated Charge feat itself?

Of course the mount can move. The mount moves with Ride by Attack doesn't it? The mount moves on your action doesn't it? Then, yes it moves with Coordinated Charge.

If the mount was required to have the feat in addition to the rider, then no mounted combatant would be worth anything. Name a single mount that gets as may feats as a Fighter. Nope, none. So a mounted specialized Fighter, or heck to be honest even a Cavalier, would be unfeasible..

So just like Ride by Attack, no the mount does not need the feat.

Grand Lodge

BTW an Inquisitor with this feat would be pretty awesome...


Krome wrote:
BTW an Inquisitor with this feat would be pretty awesome...

An inquisitor probably makes it a target for errata..

Cheliax

Remco Sommeling wrote:
Krome wrote:
BTW an Inquisitor with this feat would be pretty awesome...
An inquisitor probably makes it a target for errata..

An inquisitor doing it is not that powerful. When one of his allies charges, he can charge the same creature as an immediate action. Whoopdie-doo.

The cavalier doing it is much more devastating, because he can bring his friends.


Krome wrote:
If the mount was required to have the feat in addition to the rider, then no mounted combatant would be worth anything. Name a single mount that gets as may feats as a Fighter. Nope, none. So a mounted specialized Fighter, or heck to be honest even a Cavalier, would be unfeasible.

How many fighters take feats that are directly related to movement?

To me, that's a key distinction. Movement is shared somehow between the actions of the mount and the actions of the rider.

If you are using a normal mount, it's quite irrelevant as the mount itself is quite useless in battle.
Though the same can't be said for an animal companion and I can understand where the original remark comes from.

If only the riders need that feat, it offers a free feat (one that has a bunch of prerequisites) to two capable combatants.

Quote:
So just like Ride by Attack, no the mount does not need the feat.

Because the mounts actually does noting special. All the mounts does is charge (assuming you let people charge at a square rather than at an opponent).

If you want to have the mount attack the same opponent you attack using Ride by Attack, you would need a feat for the mount (not sure there even is a feat for that).

Imho, same as the spring attack, if both you and the mount want to attack during movement, both would need spring attack.

btw, my personal opinion. Not sure if there is a (semi) official advice on this.


Mergy wrote:
Remco Sommeling wrote:
Krome wrote:
BTW an Inquisitor with this feat would be pretty awesome...
An inquisitor probably makes it a target for errata..

An inquisitor doing it is not that powerful. When one of his allies charges, he can charge the same creature as an immediate action. Whoopdie-doo.

The cavalier doing it is much more devastating, because he can bring his friends.

But when the Cavalier can learn this ability, the Inquisitor has been doing it for several levels! (in all seriousness, I can't bring myself to care about abilities you have to level level 15 or 17 to do. :) )

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

I don't see anything in the prerequisites that require you to be mounted to take advantage of this feat. Even the wording just states "charge" and not "mounted charge". You could use this in tighter quarters to devastating effect still.

A couple barbarians with greater beast totem and rhino hide. Charge, pounce, and demolish someone.

Still doesn't seem terribly overpowered. It's a three feat investment with a minimum level of 10 that can be countered by difficult terrain, distance, friendly obstacles (other PCs), unfriendly obstacles (other enemies), curving hallways or other architectural obstructions. Not to mention all the other things that come out of a charge, such as -2AC, and provoking AoOs from nearby creatures or creatures with reach.

If you have Ride-by-Attack (we're up to a 5 feat investment now), you can couple that with this charge and set yourself up for another charge on your actual initiative. As has already been stated though, you've used up your immediate action for this round, so you have to wait for another ally to charge in after your next turn to take advantage of this. And to make sure that this mounted charge is worth all the effort, let's pick up Spirited Charge, because why wouldn't we? So that's 6 feats. A cavalier could easily manage that by level 10, given the bonus feats at level 1 and 6, but cavaliers don't get bonus feats at level 10, so they invest in something else useful. Power Attack and Weapon Focus(Lance) let's say. So level 11 is the earliest a cavalier could get this feat.

So a level 11 cavalier could make two charges in a round given enough room and given conditions that allow a charge. I'm guessing the feat might help their damage since they can't make iterative attacks while charging, and they just got their third iterative attack at level 11? They can also bring others along for those charges, though after the first round, unless everyone is a mounted character with Ride-by-Attack, the cavalier will likely not be making extra charges outside his own turn as anyone who would charge into combat probably already has.

A fighter could do it a level earlier, but he wouldn't have the fancy bells and whistles of the cavalier.

So let's say the OP builds an encounter based around this feat where a bunch of dragoons square off to level all of the players. Okay, well, if you build the situation to favour the dragoons and their feat, yes they will win. So will a giant with Great Cleave if you stick him in a small room with the party. And Great Cleave can be taken earlier and may taken out several weaker party members at once. So, yeah. You can use this feat to build enemies that will kill players. Congratulations.

Also, Inquisitors need to meet the prerequisites for their teamwork feats. A prerequisite for this feat is BAB +10. With a 3/4 BAB, the earliest the Inquisitor can take this feat is level 15, which means they don't get to do what cavaliers can any earlier.


if a cavalier wants it by lvl 10, all he needs to do is go 1 fighter/ 9 cavalier. this helps him with his feat needs and lets him get the ability at its earliest.

Pros of this feat:
1. pouncers get can get 2 full attacks.
2. regular characters can get a charge and a full attack.
3. you do not need to be mounted.
4. Players can charge in groups of 2. The whole party does not need to be charging the same target.

While difficult terrain messes you up, by lvl 10 players can be getting flying mounts or overland flight which makes getting valid charging paths much easier.

But it is mostly a cavalier tactician bomb. It is still somewhat good for full bab characters, but medium bab characters do not qualify for it until lvl 14 and likely cannot pick it up until they get a feat at 15.


I still find this feat to be rather powerful because the charge you give to your allies is an immediate action, so they still get to act and make a full attack at their enemies if their charge didn't kill them in the first place. At first though I thought that perhaps this kind of charge would use up a move action but there are plenty of feats in the book that allow you to do other movements as swift actions in addition to your normal move. Personally I feel this should at least eat up your move action as well, but those that haven't taking their charge yet still get to at least make a standard action after their charge.


thepuregamer wrote:


But it is mostly a cavalier tactician bomb. It is still somewhat good for full bab characters, but medium bab characters do not qualify for it until lvl 14 and likely cannot pick it up until they get a feat at 15.

And the Cavalier can't pick it as a tactician feat before 17, which is even later. And even if he picks it as a regular feat, he still doesn't get to share it before level 17.


Several friends and I have been highly impressed with this feat, as it would have fit in very well with our last Pathfinder campaign. I was playing a Two-Handed Fighter with a falchion, being backed up by a raging barbarian and a paladin. Every fight began with the three of us (with a further fourth in our Druid's animal companion. Pounce is nasty)charging into battle against whatever foe we faced, often times doing so at pincer angles to then flank whatever it was we were after. We all took Teamwork Feats to boost our flanking abilities, with some sickening results.

Eventually the Druid learned to Wild Shape into a dinosaur and began joining us on the front line.

A feat like this would have made the first round even worse, as a raging barbarian with a bane mace, a two-handed power attacking fighter with a crit range of 15-20, a smiting paladin, a pouncing velociraptor, and a large wild shaped druid would all be on top of whatever had just confronted us, and four of them would then get a chance to full attack on their next turn...if it was still alive.


Slaunyeh wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:


But it is mostly a cavalier tactician bomb. It is still somewhat good for full bab characters, but medium bab characters do not qualify for it until lvl 14 and likely cannot pick it up until they get a feat at 15.
And the Cavalier can't pick it as a tactician feat before 17, which is even later. And even if he picks it as a regular feat, he still doesn't get to share it before level 17.

or you could read my post and realize that I said a cavalier who took a single lvl dip in any full bab class(I pointed to fighter) such that he was 1 x/9 cavalier, would then be able to take coordinated charge as his greater tactician feat. So a cavalier could be passing this feat around with tactician as early as 10th lvl. And at 10th lvl this is like I said, a group dpr bomb. Can anybody else give the party the possibility of 2 full attacks a turn? A beast rider cavalier is really going to benefit from this just by himself since he will pass it to his big cat mount as well as everyone else. 200+ dpr by himself easily at lvl 10.

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