Yeah, this seems to be a GM problem. Augment summoning affects the SLA and when the eidolon is summoned with the spell Summon Eidolon. Not when it's called from the ritual. I will find the rules for that in a bit.
The Master Summoner gets augment summons for free, so that sets a strong precedent that it does affect the SLA.
If i was a summoner with that GM, I'd see why you think that they suck too.
I've seen an eidolon get hit by this:
Ray of Enfeeblement
A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half. This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead.
Did you or your DM miss (1) that the spell inflicts a penalty and does not do ability score damage, and (2) that the Ray of Enfeeblement having a duration of only one round per caster level? No healing is needed -- the spell eventually expires and your eidolon is back to full strength.
Now if your eidolon had been poisoned, then the ability score damage problem you mentioned would come up.
Ok. SLAs are treated as spells. So Augment Summons works with the SLA.
More importantly, some guy named Jason Bulmahn specifically said that Augment Summons works on the SLAs. You might know him from such things as "being the lead designer of Pathfinder and in many ways the creator of it".
I'd recommend showing your GM that post, the other templates, and the fact that Ray of Enfeeblement is a penalty and not damage.
Ok. SLAs are treated as spells. So Augment Summons works with the SLA.
More importantly, some guy named Jason Bulmahn specifically said that Augment Summons works on the SLAs. You might know him from such things as "being the lead designer of Pathfinder and in many ways the creator of it".
I'd recommend showing your GM that post, the other templates, and the fact that Ray of Enfeeblement is a penalty and not damage.
Will do.
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Why would anyone want to play a Summoner?
I dont know, how about the ability to custom build a companion to your very exact specifications and almost any concept you like.
And one that isn't terrible at that!
+1. The Eidolon can be specced to pretty much anything the creator wants. Except a bird. Dragon yes, bird, no. But they can give it the ability to heal and a breath weapon... That said, a druid can be a lot more versatile... himself. Yeah, you can change your animal companion in 24 hours, but that might be a challenge to roleplay. The summoner can easily be roleplayed changing up his eidolon, that's the point of the class.
One of few things.
Much better summoning list (Summon Monster is FAR better than Summon Nature's Ally. It's not even close.)
This is a late reply to this post, but I missed it the first time around.
This needs clarification, because it reads as if you are suggesting that Summoning is "one of few things" a Summoner does better than a Druid.
If that is the case, then *cupping hands around mouth* OF COURSE!
That's like saying that fighting with weapons is "one of few things" a Fighter does better than a Ranger. Fighters are specialists, and fighting with weapons is everything for a fighter.
Likewise, summoning is everything for a Summoner, as the name of the class might imply. They are specialists. They have a great deal of power, but it is super-focused into the ability to summon monsters.
For evidence that the Summoner is not a good class to be strong, it needs to show either one of two things (or both):
a) Summoning is not good enough to be a primary focus for a class
b) Summoners aren't the best at summoning
If either a or b can be shown as potentially untrue, then we have something to discuss, otherwise, everything else is moot.
For those of you who haven't figured it out yet Treantmonk loves his summoning.
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Play standard action summoning. It is astonishingly powerful, even broken. I have experience in this area, honestly.
Having run a campaign with a PC summoner, I can vouch for this as well. Summoning as a standard action is really, really underrated by almost everyone. It lets you get summons out immediately with a much smaller window for interruption; it also lets you pull dirty tricks that full-round summoners simply can't, like readying to summon monsters around someone when they start casting a spell, or readying to summon monsters in front of someone as soon as they've moved ten feet.
What's also overlooked and, in my opinion, about as big as the speed of the summoner's summons is their duration. A half-smart midlevel summoner can do stupid things to most dungeons with 11 minutes worth of a Shadow Demon (to give one example), and he can do it a whole bunch of times per day.
You can find Entropic here in the PRD. Scroll around for Resolute too.
Where does it say you can summon the elementals from bestiary 2? I know there have been several complaints that the original list was not expanded. If it can be done then it is a well kept secret.
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You can find Entropic here in the PRD. Scroll around for Resolute too.Where does it say you can summon the elementals from bestiary 2? I know there have been several complaints that the original list was not expanded. If it can be done then it is a well kept secret.
Check the PFSRD. Under summon monster/elementals, they provide stats for all of the elemental types.
You can find Entropic here in the PRD. Scroll around for Resolute too.Where does it say you can summon the elementals from bestiary 2? I know there have been several complaints that the original list was not expanded. If it can be done then it is a well kept secret.
The spell simply says Elemental. Those additions are elementals, so they are allowed. It's an extrapolation, I think. I don't have the book on hand to find the page, if there is one.
The DM is using all RAW. So the haste extra attack doesn't work for the Eidolon, because a claw isn't a held weapon.
The DM heard the story about the RAI with respect to Life Link, how it was meant to keep the Eidolon in play when it was about to be sent away at 0 hp, as originally intended (Still remaining conscious). But with the addition of the negative con score death to the Eidolon, it is useless. The ability can only be used when the Eidolon either takes a hit big enough to kill him so assuming the Eidolon is at 1 hit point with a 13 con score. If the eidolon was hit for 15 damage, Summoner would have to soak all 15 damage to keep the Eidolon conscious. If the Eidolon was at 1 hp and was tapped by 4 damage, the Summoner couldn't use the ability and the Eidolon would be knocked unconscious. Also, don't forget about the concentration check needing to be made because you took damage on the same round that you tried to heal the Eidolon back to consciousness, despite the fact that you are simply bleeding for him through one of your own class abilities.
The pounce ability is being read right out of the Eidolon evolutions, which is fine (no rake). The Rend ability is being read out of the bestiary (1 rake per round limit).
It just seems that every ruling is always against the Summoner.
We were also told that because the Magic attacks evolution doesn't specify +1, +2, or +3 that the Summoner would have to spend 1 evo. point per +1 bonus to overcome damage reduction without receiving any of the +1, +2, or +3 bonuses to hit or damage. (Gotta love rules on the fly)
Haste works with natural weapons.
Note also this FAQ post by SKR on Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) with natural attacks.
Haste effects work on natural attacks, granting one additional attack total. Not one per type.
He can't claim RAW and then rule like that on Life Link.
At least his Magic Attacks ruling is correct. They're just treated as magic, but don't get any bonuses to hit or damage. Basically, it just lets them overcome DR/magic.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.
Haste works with natural weapons.
Note also this FAQ post by SKR on Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) with natural attacks.
Haste effects work on natural attacks, granting one additional attack total. Not one per type.
He can't claim RAW and then rule like that on Life Link.
At least his Magic Attacks ruling is correct. They're just treated as magic, but don't get any bonuses to hit or damage. Basically, it just lets them overcome DR/magic.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.
It isn't my character, when I heard about this stuff going on I decided to roll a fighter so that I wouldn't have to deal with this crap. However I find it to be a fascinating class.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.
I'd just roll a new one and straight up tell the GM he's doing his damndest to make it no fun.
Then I'd roll a druid and wear a troll face the whole time.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.I'd just roll a new one and straight up tell the GM he's doing his damndest to make it no fun.
Then I'd roll a druid and wear a troll face the whole time.
You mean a Lion Shaman that goes for the "Crazy Cat Lady" vibe? :)
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You mean a Lion Shaman that goes for the "Crazy Cat Lady" vibe? :)
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.I'd just roll a new one and straight up tell the GM he's doing his damndest to make it no fun.
Then I'd roll a druid and wear a troll face the whole time.
I was thinking halfling saurian shaman with an 8 year old who loves dinosaurs vibe and can't ever shut up about them. Everything has to be dinosaurs, everything.
I was thinking halfling saurian shaman with an 8 year old who loves dinosaurs vibe and can't ever shut up about them. Everything has to be dinosaurs, everything.You mean a Lion Shaman that goes for the "Crazy Cat Lady" vibe? :)
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.I'd just roll a new one and straight up tell the GM he's doing his damndest to make it no fun.
Then I'd roll a druid and wear a troll face the whole time.
Unrelated, but check out some of the new weapons!
just my 2 cents
but this is an apples to oranges argument
the druid is a party's need fill class, need a healer; druid, need some one to help the tank flank; druid, what about all your woodland skills still; druid.
the summoner is more of a tank. really now, feats or evolutions, which makes a better fighter?
Check the PFSRD. Under summon monster/elementals, they provide stats for all of the elemental types.You can find Entropic here in the PRD. Scroll around for Resolute too.Where does it say you can summon the elementals from bestiary 2? I know there have been several complaints that the original list was not expanded. If it can be done then it is a well kept secret.
......
Then again the book only says you can summon elementals without specifying, so I guess that would include all of the one created in the future also. It works for me.
You're right on the SLA, but Augment Summoning does not affect the Summon Eidolon spell any more than it affects the other specialised summoning spells.
As long as we are nit picking. (Puts on Devil's Advocate hat)
It doesn't seem like the Summon Eidolon Spell is affected by Augment Summoning either.
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Summon Eidolon Spell:
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon.
Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.
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If you summon your Eidolon normally, it is by a ritual, the main difference is that the spell seems to speed up that ritual by 6x.
Thoughts or other interpretations?
Haste works with natural weapons.
Note also this FAQ post by SKR on Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) with natural attacks.
Haste effects work on natural attacks, granting one additional attack total. Not one per type.
He can't claim RAW and then rule like that on Life Link.
At least his Magic Attacks ruling is correct. They're just treated as magic, but don't get any bonuses to hit or damage. Basically, it just lets them overcome DR/magic.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.
The post by SKR only says the speed enhancement does not work with all natural attacks, but it never states that it is ok with one of them.
James does not make official rules for mechanics. It would have to be in the FAQ or errata so the GM can still say no by RAW.
I think haste needs to be errata'd to say extra attack but ______ does not benefit.
You're right on the SLA, but Augment Summoning does not affect the Summon Eidolon spell any more than it affects the other specialised summoning spells.Yeah, this seems to be a GM problem. Augment summoning affects the SLA and when the eidolon is summoned with the spell Summon Eidolon. Not when it's called from the ritual. I will find the rules for that in a bit.
Actually, it's a Conjuration (Summoning) spell and is treated as any other summon spell such as Summon Monster. Note that normally Eidolons can go through Protection from X, but if summoned using Summon Eidolon, it is bound to the same rules with regard to Protection From X that normal summons are.
Note that the reason why it doesn't affect the Eidolon is because the ritual is not a spell / spell-like ability, but rather a Su [although the class doesn't actually say that. How strange.]. Specifically, the reason it doesn't work is not because it's an Eidolon.
So summoning it with Summon Eidolon gives the effects of Augment Summons, if they have it.
Haste works with natural weapons.
Note also this FAQ post by SKR on Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) with natural attacks.
Haste effects work on natural attacks, granting one additional attack total. Not one per type.
He can't claim RAW and then rule like that on Life Link.
At least his Magic Attacks ruling is correct. They're just treated as magic, but don't get any bonuses to hit or damage. Basically, it just lets them overcome DR/magic.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.
The post by SKR only says the speed enhancement does not work with all natural attacks, but it never states that it is ok with one of them.
James does not make official rules for mechanics. It would have to be in the FAQ or errata so the GM can still say no by RAW.
I think haste needs to be errata'd to say extra attack but ______ does not benefit.
True, it doesn't specifically say that. But if it was because the haste-effect doesn't work with natural weapons, SKR would've just said that's why it didn't work.
But he didn't. He said that it doesn't work because doubling attacks is overpowered.
Note that the reason why it doesn't affect the Eidolon is because the ritual is not a spell / spell-like ability, but rather a Su [although the class doesn't actually say that. How strange.]. Specifically, the reason it doesn't work is not because it's an Eidolon.
So summoning it with Summon Eidolon gives the effects of Augment Summons, if they have it.
But if the act of summoning an Eidolon is a Su, and the Eidolon doesn't get Augment Summoning because it is an SU. Then when you summon the Eidolon normally as per the Spell Summon Eidolon, it should get summoned by the SU.
I'm also thinking that the Summon Eidolon spell can't be used with the Summon Monster SLA for that reason.
Summon Eidolon is one of the ways that a normal non-Master Summoner can have an eidolon and the SLA SMs out at the same time. Summoning the Eidolon with the ritual uses up that "power source" that the SLAs use too. Summoning it with Summon Eidolon leaves that power source untouched, so the eidolon and the SLAs can be out at the same time.
It's confusing. :(
I'm also thinking that the Summon Eidolon spell can't be used with the Summon Monster SLA for that reason.Summon Eidolon is one of the ways that a normal non-Master Summoner can have an eidolon and the SLA SMs out at the same time. Summoning the Eidolon with the ritual uses up that "power source" that the SLAs use too. Summoning it with Summon Eidolon leaves that power source untouched, so the eidolon and the SLAs can be out at the same time.
It's confusing. :(
Gotta love how SU is linked with SLA, in the most convenient and unconvenient ways possible.
But if the act of summoning an Eidolon is a Su, and the Eidolon doesn't get Augment Summoning because it is an SU. Then when you summon the Eidolon normally as per the Spell Summon Eidolon, it should get summoned by the SU.Note that the reason why it doesn't affect the Eidolon is because the ritual is not a spell / spell-like ability, but rather a Su [although the class doesn't actually say that. How strange.]. Specifically, the reason it doesn't work is not because it's an Eidolon.
So summoning it with Summon Eidolon gives the effects of Augment Summons, if they have it.
The Ritual is Su. Summoning with the spell is a spell. The act of summoning the Eidolon isn't the Su, but rather the ritual itself.
Looking over the feat Summoner's Call, I'm no longer 100% sure about my interpretation. I'll make a Rules Question about it...
Haste works with natural weapons.
Note also this FAQ post by SKR on Amulet of Mighty Fists (Speed) with natural attacks.
Haste effects work on natural attacks, granting one additional attack total. Not one per type.
He can't claim RAW and then rule like that on Life Link.
At least his Magic Attacks ruling is correct. They're just treated as magic, but don't get any bonuses to hit or damage. Basically, it just lets them overcome DR/magic.
Must suck to have a GM hostile to your character.
The post by SKR only says the speed enhancement does not work with all natural attacks, but it never states that it is ok with one of them.
James does not make official rules for mechanics. It would have to be in the FAQ or errata so the GM can still say no by RAW.
I think haste needs to be errata'd to say extra attack but ______ does not benefit.
True, it doesn't specifically say that. But if it was because the haste-effect doesn't work with natural weapons, SKR would've just said that's why it didn't work.
But he didn't. He said that it doesn't work because doubling attacks is overpowered.
I agree with you but if his GM is that much into RAW.....
But if the act of summoning an Eidolon is a Su, and the Eidolon doesn't get Augment Summoning because it is an SU. Then when you summon the Eidolon normally as per the Spell Summon Eidolon, it should get summoned by the SU.Note that the reason why it doesn't affect the Eidolon is because the ritual is not a spell / spell-like ability, but rather a Su [although the class doesn't actually say that. How strange.]. Specifically, the reason it doesn't work is not because it's an Eidolon.
So summoning it with Summon Eidolon gives the effects of Augment Summons, if they have it.
SU's are not spells. I understand that SU's are magical, but spells and SLA's are completely different beast, each with its own rules limitations. It is not convenient. It is the rules. Things that enhance spells don't enhance SU's and vice versa. If they wanted Augment Summon to work the the summoner's ability to bring forth an eidolon they would have made it into an SLA.
I would say that between thinking Ray of Enfeeblement is damage, not penalty, screwing up Life Link to the point of uselessness, getting rid of pounce, and ruling that Augment Summons doesn't affect the SLAs...This GM isn't RAW at all. He's not even using RAI.
I would say that between thinking Ray of Enfeeblement is damage, not penalty, screwing up Life Link to the point of uselessness, getting rid of pounce, and ruling that Augment Summons doesn't affect the SLAs...This GM isn't RAW at all. He's not even using RAI.
I agree. I think he just doesn't know the rules well. In that case Jame's ruling may have weight since he won't know it is not official.
The Ritual is Su. Summoning with the spell is a spell. The act of summoning the Eidolon isn't the Su, but rather the ritual itself.
Looking over the feat Summoner's Call, I'm no longer 100% sure about my interpretation. I'll make a Rules Question about it...
While you are at it, get a ruling on how Life Link is supposed to work.
Is it supposed to hurt the Summoner by not letting him use it until the Eidolon is unconscious, or is the Summoner supposed to use it to prevent the Eidolon from going unconscious; aka start use at 0-1 hit points.
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Life Link doesn't get to kick in until the Eidolon is damaged enough to be sent back to its home plane - i.e. it's just taken a hit which reduces it to a negative Hit Point total equal or greater than its Constitution. At that point the Summoner can donate as many of his or her Hit Points to the thing as he or she wants, in order to stop that happening (and to heal the Eidolon up a bit too in many cases).
Yes, it's rubbish at low levels - but total Hit Points quickly outpace total Constitution as you level up, and it starts to become a much more viable Class Feature.
At low levels it's a much better tactic to let the Eidolon get slain, 'cos that way it comes back the next day with half its Hit Points (and saves you healing resources overall). It's the closest the Eidolon gets to 'natural' healing. If the Eidolon is KO'd, and you can't heal it back to consciousness, then finish it off yourself - it's a much, much, better option than dismissing it, only to summon it back the next day... still KOd...
Also, remember that as soon as your Eidolon bites the dust, you actually get to pull out your 'big guns' Class Feature and start spamming the Summon Monster SLAs (sure, only one active at a time... but they last at least the length of an encounter, and you can spam more per day than you're likely to get encounters).
Life Link doesn't get to kick in until the Eidolon is damaged enough to be sent back to its home plane - i.e. it's just taken a hit which reduces it to a negative Hit Point total equal or greater than its Constitution. At that point the Summoner can donate as many of his or her Hit Points to the thing as he or she wants, in order to stop that happening (and to heal the Eidolon up a bit too in many cases).
Yes, it's rubbish at low levels - but total Hit Points quickly outpace total Constitution as you level up, and it starts to become a much more viable Class Feature.
At low levels it's a much better tactic to let the Eidolon get slain, 'cos that way it comes back the next day with half its Hit Points (and saves you healing resources overall). It's the closest the Eidolon gets to 'natural' healing. If the Eidolon is KO'd, and you can't heal it back to consciousness, then finish it off yourself - it's a much, much, better option than dismissing it, only to summon it back the next day... still KOd...
Also, remember that as soon as your Eidolon bites the dust, you actually get to pull out your 'big guns' Class Feature and start spamming the Summon Monster SLAs (sure, only one active at a time... but they last at least the length of an encounter, and you can spam more per day than you're likely to get encounters).
Life link, as it was written is absolute crap. The Eidolon has a similar ability that is actually a whole lot better, which he can use to save the Summoner. That is how Life Link used to work, that is how life link should work. As written it is useless, unless you want to suicide your character.
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Life link, as it was written is absolute crap. The Eidolon has a similar ability that is actually a whole lot better, which he can use to save the Summoner. That is how Life Link used to work, that is how life link should work. As written it is useless, unless you want to suicide your character.
That's a bit of a harsh interpretation, only looking at low levels of play, IMHO.
Your Eidolon's basic Con score is 13, and the Summoner is a d8 Hit Point class. Assuming no Con bonuses or penalties, he'll have an average of 17 Hit Points by level 3 (so, enough to 'save' the Eidolon and make it conscious, but little else), but he'll have 52-53 Hit Point by level 10, meaning that Life Link has become a much better option for him. That's assuming the Summoner hasn't got a Con bonus, or taken Toughness, or sunk his Favoured Class bonus into Hit Points, or all three (a +1 Con bonus, Toughness, and Favoured Class bonus into Hit Points would, for example, give him average level 10 Hit Points of 82-83).
Remember that, even if the Eidolon can't be healed normally, your Summoner can. If your play style is 'tanking' the Eidolon with the Summoner as support, then Life Link can be very handy. If that's not your play style... then you've still not lost anything by having the Class Feature... ;)
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Life link is great if you're willing to spend the Eidilon's feats on the diehard line; @6 you can keep him full attacking while negative and take his damage. Even @ 3 he can still have 1 attack / round. You do have to weigh that VS power attack and weapon focus and combat reflexes though.