My PCs are kicking butt -- help me raise my game, please


Advice

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Party of 6 PCs, all 7th level. Sorceror, cleric, barbarian, rogue/shadowdancer, paladin, Zen Archer monk. They're really making my life difficult. Some tactics:

-- Haste. This is their standard opening: the sorceror does a burst Haste on the whole party. It lasts 7 rounds, which is the duration of most combats, and the sorceror can do this four times per day. The extra move speed is tactically very handy, and the extra attack turns the fighters -- especially the barbarian -- into whirling hurricanes of slashy death.

-- Clever use of buffs and debuffs. They get long-lasting buffs up well in advance, including Protection from Evil on the low-will-save characters. If there's a high-AC opponent in sight, the barbarian gets a Bull's Strength early on, pushing his already-high attack bonus and damage out of sight. With Haste, on a full attack, the barbarian has little difficulty hitting an AC 25 opponent three times for 100 or more points of total damage.

In group combats, mass debuffs are also popular -- the sorceror will generally follow Haste with Slow, while the cleric casts Archon's Wrath. (A spell I have come to loathe, btw, since it requires me to keep careful track not only of who's affected but of who has done what.)

-- Burst heals. The cleric rarely fights; he just casts buffs and burst heals. (He has the feat that lets him exclude one enemy.) 4d6 on the whole party every round = it's very hard to bring PCs down just by doing damage. We recently had a mass combat where the barbarian and the smiting paladin took the fore, with the cleric just standing behind them healing and buffing. They were able to mow their way through something like 20 CR 3 opponents to reach the CR 9 boss in like three rounds.

On one hand, I can't complain too hard -- the players aren't bending the rules, they're just playing cleverly. On the other hand, there are six of them and one of me. I could use some help. I don't want to just mirror their tactics back at them; that would be boring. I'd like to come up with a suite of tactics that counter or bypass what they're doing.

The only level-appropriate opponent who's been able to consistently beat them is a gnome alchemist who's a recurring enemy. He wins by buffing like crazy, getting his AC up over 30, then casting Haste and Fly and bombing them. He has Protection Against Arrows and Shield, so they can't easily reach him. But the uber-buffed opponent is a card I don't want to play too often. I need some other tactics.

Some tentative thoughts:

-- counterspelling against the sorceror?
-- lots and lots of dispel magics?
-- lots of ranged touch spells? Most of them have dismal touch ACs.
-- forced splitting of the party? This is a bit of a PITA, but as an occasional thing it could be good.

These don't really seem that strong, though. Thoughts and suggestions would be very welcome.

Doug M.


1. stealth using enemeis? Or invisible casters. Takes a large chunk of your minutes per lvl buffing out of the players hands if they do not see a combat coming.
2. Use tactical spells of your own. web to slow them down. Wall of ice to divide them. Cast silence around 1 of the hated casters(a 2nd lvl spell). Grease a melee characters weapon, or a casters focus and each round they have to make a saving throw or drop the weapon.
3. More varied enemies. Sacrificial enemies( exploding undead, or minions of the alchemist with bombs implanted in them). Also make more specialized enemies. If they are cutting your monsters down too quickly, add in some highly defensive npcs of your own that will waste a few rounds of their time.
4. Yes you should dispel some of their buffs. You are reaching the point that a encounters boss could be casting greater dispel magic. Give him a caster lvl bump through feats and he should be able to weaken their resources for the current enounter and later ones by forcing them to do a ton of rebuffing.
5. Did this once- make an encounter with tons of low lvl casters and magic missile the heck out of them. Do this only once. It is funny. tons of guaranteed damage and protect your casters with other reach weapon mooks.

6. Ultimately, a 6 person party is going to require higher CR encounters, and so you will need to treat them differently than a 4 person team.


I was having issues with this. My party is just a well oiled machine, however I found that there are a number of things you can do to ensure that they are having to work for their victories.

1. Scrub archers: put these guys in hard to reach locations and have them hold their fire until a wizard or sorcerer casts. In a world of magic I think this would be a standard tactic that I think all enemies would make use of.

2. Keep the pressure on: One of the biggest issues that Dm's have is the acceptance of the 15 minute adventuring day. When you keep the pressure on your party and don't allow them to sleep your casters will be a lot more frugal with their buffing spells.

3. Switch up your tactics: Rather than save the big battle for last throw them up against a main boss in the beginning of play. I'm not sure I buy that a Evil villain would send wave after wave of scrubs up against a group of heroes when he could just sick his Ogre mages on them.

4. Use creatures with special abilities: And use them wisely. If your group is fighting a gorgon don't hold back on hitting them with his paralyzing breath right off the bat. Then trampling those that fail their saves. Make the players who succeeded their saves work to protect their team mates.

5. The 3 Ts: Use terrain tactics and traps. If your bad guy knows the party is coming is he going to just sit there and wait for them to get there or is he going to make plans to stop them? Maybe setup some defensive positions or put traps in areas where he plans on attacking. A simple trip wire with in between your players and your orcs can do wonders. The fighter will charge, not notice the wire and get blasted back 30 feet when the log smashes into him from above. That's when the hill giants attack emerge from their cover and let loose a hail of boulders.

Adventuring is a hard job with a high mortality rate. Don't pull your punches but at the same time don't go out of your way to kill your party. Just play creatures wisely. An Int 16 creature is not going to just charge into a fight he might actually have a plan.


Well you have a well balanced group with a clever set of players. So naturally they'll mow down encounters left adn right.

Here's some ideas.

Switch up tactics: Don't always go for straight hp damage. Slap there ability scores, disarm, sunder, trip them into non existence.

Strange Environments: pick plenty of interesting places to fight, this won;t jsut make things fun for you but for them as well. Underwater, over a gaping chasm, in torrential hail, a rain of frogs anything.


My solution would be to use lots and lost of cannon fodder.
Make a generic warrior with all physical stats on 14 with 2-handed weapon and short bow and rapid shot. Spend them like candy with no regrets. Up their level until they go down by one swing of your toughest melee-PC, on average, and with 2 or 3 swings by lesser melee characters. Ideally they can barely survive a fireball of the sorcerer.

They reason for using cannon fodder is solely to take actions away from the PCs. Each attack spend on low level enemies does not affect the main big bad boss which then has time to cast spells or should arrows that hit. Side effect is that the PCs will feel heroic due to splatter and gore.

Further, try to separate the casters from the non-casters by crumbling bridges, walls of stone-spells, webs, flashfloods, summoned minor monsters, enemies in full plate with tower shields but low damage output, etc.

Also, the first 7 rounds of battle were just the warm-up, behind the next door is the real challenge, which now comes to them.

Other option, but use it sparsely, throw them a minor opponent, which surrenders and deflects after 1 round. Effect: waisted spells, and a new "ally". Is he sincere or a plant. Will he sneak attack during a real relevant combat? Also, nice option to give (dis)information on the new challenges. Foreshadow difficult terrain, caves with deep shadows (sneaky opponents), or perfectly round chambers with one-fireball- diameter. Make a uphill battle on a long long narrow winding stairway, this irritates archers and casters.

Put multiple small characters with crossbows on a rhinoceros (or armored coach or dinosaur or dumb earth-elemental) with a druid to heal the rhino (or arteficer). Use the rhino to attach the strongest melee character will its main rider heals it and the other passengers shoot arrows. Combine net throwing or bolas with a trampling mount.

A trick a DM pulled on a PC of mine was a battle on a beach, below a cliff. We scouted the area, ambushed from above, levitated down, butchered some opponents easily, some looting. Then opponents did the same ambush on us and in addition summoned some sea monsters with the summoners in boats, away, out of reach. (Place summoners in trees or on balconies)

Personally, I think it is nice to have players who work as a team. Also, each healing ability used by the cleric mean he is not using his weapon or spell against the enemy. This makes the melee characters seem stronger then they are. They are the focus of the defensive and healing spells of the group and the focus of the buffing spells. This all drains spells and actions from the other PCs.

Don't forget lower level arcane casters with lots and lots of fireballs and archers protected by reach-weapon fighters behind a shield wall with healers.


Just to have everything covered. I think that not every encounter should be designed to compensate for them. Use your intuition and decide how many highly designed encounters is logical and how much is going to appear as the DM is out to get them.


you seem most concerned about the haste, they can do it 4 times per day, for 7 rounds.

Waste their first rounds with goons or summons.
Waste their first combats per day with mock-combat. Something that looks like it will start a real fight, but then runs away or is just very weak or an illusion.

If you're not already doing it:
Have very diverse scenarios. Acid pits, oily cauldrons, heavy chandeliers, stairs to a throne, proactive traps. Sometimes the ennemies should take especially much advantage, like when the evil mastermind arranged everything so that he has the upper hand.
Alchemists are awesome, they can nova well enough to keep the cleric more than busy, and some can evil throw summons around with a standard actions.

When in doubt have a lot of ennemies, it will make your part of the round last longer, but it's amazing what 15 goblins can do to a group like that, just make them strong enough so they can at least take 1 hit.

And btw. lvl 7 is supposed to be kicking some serious butt, and 6 PCs is more than the average.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Tarkxt is definitely on the right track here. The players that I usually run adventures for are all experienced and / or highly creative gamers. They generally know the strengths and weaknesses of their PCs and cater to those. In a straight-up fight, they can handle most CR-appropriate foes, and with a little prep, they can usually take out more dangerous encounters with little loss to the party. And this is a group of 3 PCs.

What they have trouble with, however, is when I pull out the unusual terrains, set up traps / ambuscades, and make use of equally creative tactics. Also swarms. They seem to have a tough time handling swarms, and I've even told them [out of game] several good tactics for thwarting swarms.

For your crew, I'd try to put them out of their element every once in a while; fighting on narrow, slick surfaces above a nasty fall with ranged enemies might give them pause. Kill the lights or limit visibility in a trapped area [fog cloud or the like]. Include a spellcaster or two in the alchemist's employ that focus on countering the party's magic [counterspell & dispels]. Battlefield control effects [grease, various walls, tentacles]. Swarms of things [the distraction ability is practically aimed at casters].

Combining any of the above for added drama is also nice; alchemist's minions ambush the party on a scree slope on a foggy morning next to a deep ravine [50ft is fine], with a few traps designed to send their targets on a little 'trip.' Maybe have a nest of wasps get stirred up by the commotion for a bit of added comedy / challenge.

All said, it's pretty easy to ratchet up the challenge rating of any fight with just a little bit of tactical adjustment, and nobody will think it unfair; they'll likely be exited at having to figure out new tactics so they can more efficiently stomp the crud out of things again.


Mage Evolving wrote:
4. Use creatures with special abilities: And use them wisely. If your group is fighting a gorgon don't hold back on hitting them with his paralyzing breath right off the bat. Then trampling those that fail their saves. Make the players who succeeded their saves work to protect their team mates.

This happened to my group not too long ago. It was one of the better encounters we've had. We ran into a small herd of gorgons, five or so. It was really tricky keeping them turned properly so no one who failed their save for the first paralyzing breath attack got the breath attack a second time.

Also to the OP I would think Demons/Devils/Daemons are your friends. They have a good mix of DR/ and spell like abilities. Abuse anything that says "at will" and don't hesitate to let them try and gate in help early.

You could also try putting the party on a timer so to speak. It's hard to get too over-prepared if the sunken city your slogging through is collapsing, or if the antidote for the lethal poison the parties been infected with needs to be found in hours rather than days.

Liberty's Edge

F-U-D-G-E...


Put them up against enemies that are 2 CRs higher than what you think.

"They cut their way through a bunch of CR 3 guys to get to a CR 9 guy" is like kind of cool-- but the CR system goes out of whack the moment the PCs use tactics brilliantly or there are 6 players. It should look more like "They cut their way through a bunch of CR 5 guys to get to the CR 11 guy" to be honest.

To demonstrate the flexibility of the CR system, I had my Saturday game group fight a group of 4 CR 4s, 2 CR 2s and a CR 10 angel. Thanks to dice luck, they brought down the angel in two rounds. The fighter and inquisitor hit him solidly, he missed all but one swing on the fighter, the oracle had him murderous commanded to attack a hound archon, he failed, his second turn was wasted, he died. They were all level 6. They didn't even burn too many resources-- just haste.

So, try upping your CR. Oh, and play to kill. It's the only way you're going to even remotely harm these guys.


Hey be thankful you have a group of players that have come together to create a well balanced and effective fighting group.

If you want to really challenge them, have them fight in antimagic zone, or an undead army invades. The most effective monsters to counter players is themseleves. Put them up agaisnt the same make up and force as they are. see if they can handle themsleves.


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I'm not a very experienced DM, so this is interesting for me... which is to say: dot.

Scarab Sages

Terrain is also a very useful tool from time to time. Put them in small narrow spaces, use fog cloud to block lines of sight, dispel magic to reduce buffs, etc.

Not much you can do to counter bursts, but typically this is a less than optimal action on a consistent basis. I have however given a rogue wererat an improved snatch feat and had them snatch the clerics holy symbol in a underground maze warren. No holy symbol=no bursts.

Sounds like the party is doing great.

One point on your archer, be sure to make him take things like partial cover for shooting through his own party members if they are blocking a similar size opponent. It won't matter too much, but my the archer in my own party tended to think he could act like a turret and that precise shot=shoot anything no matter where it is in relation to the party. Now he moves to open clear shooting lanes because the penalty is worth avoiding.

Swarms can indeed mess with a bunch of casters, and chances are your sorcerer can take them out asap, or will likely take a spell to do so after you use them a time or two. Burning hands usually counters most swarms. However, this also costs them action turns to deal with them, and nauseated is a decently annoying condition to make them worth dealing with.

Mostly though, it sounds like your group has done a great job of synergy, which is very very hard to counter as a GM. You may find you have to use specially templated creatures that suprise the party, or add class levels to make it appropriately challenging. Just be glad they don't also have a bard. :)


One of my favorite baddies to use is the Hound of Tindalos (Bestiary 2). As someone else mentioned, they have such an excellent assortment of At-Will spell-like abilities and powers that they can challenge even the most powerful of PCs when used correctly. Casting Invisibility, moving via Air Walk, teleporting around at will, etc.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You can also design encounters to occur in many small chambers at once instead of 1 or 2 big chambers. Remember, opening an (unlocked) door is a move action, so you can get some delay by just having the PCs chase the NPCs through several different rooms. Use lots of secret doors: the PCs feel rewarded if they find them, and the NPCs can get a great tactical advantage using them. Locked doors delay things even more. Portcullises and walls of bars can herd the PCs, and allow NPCs to make ranged attacks with little risk. Pit traps can be effective too.

I recently ran an encounter in a big alchemist's lab with lots of big tables full of alchemist lab equipment. Some alchemists began by bombing right away, the others pulled back and buffed. Some used items from the tables, and 1 PC was desperate enough to drink out of a cauldron boiling in the lab (he lucked out and was cured!). Use some dispelling bombs on hasted and buffed PCs.

Use their tactics against them: if the tanks have Pro from Evil on them, have summoned monsters attack the spellcasters instead. A summoner could be a really fun encounter: 1 PC, an eidolon guarding him (which CAN hit pro from evilled tanks), and he can summon swarms and beasties and pits to break up the party.


It almost sounds like you're presenting the same sorts of scenarios to them each time. I say this because their tactics ought not to work every time if the situation is tactically different.

You touched upon ranged and touch attacks as a solution, and that is a good, obvious one. If ambushed in a canyon and bombarded by ranged attacks from opponents on the peaks, they obviously will be a disadvantage for at least a couple rounds.

More situations like that will help. Firstly, it will cause them to consider that the buffs they've been using will not work in every situation, thus forcing them to memorize different spells, or prepare differently (which could mean more challenge when you do finally give them another straight-up fight). Secondly, it's just more fun to have more variety.

Try some underwater combat, more arial stuff, and try to think of the terrain and the ways in which the bad guys might be using it. Especially if the party is coming into their territory, the bad guys might have contingencies for when they are being invaded. Terrain will factor heavily into that.


Some things that have been used on me in the past.

1) Opponents you are not supposed to kill. Bring back alive. Or worse yet, a paladin the players know and like that has been tricked into defending the bad guys.

2) Traps and terrain to slow the group and kobalds sorc with true strike sniping from long range with poisoned crossbows and true strike.

3) Party tricked into working for the bad guys and finds they are opposed by the good guys.

4) Mid-level counter/dispellers to shut down the casters/healers.

5) Rogue watching the PC's to learn their tactics. Reports to BBEG who plans an attack (or series of attacks) specifically tailored to them.

6) Mission with time limit so they can't rest for spells heals as often as they would like to.

7) Environments they are not used to working in. Tight tunnels, ocean/underwater mission, scaling a cliff, wading through a swamp, etc...

8) One of the most viscious was a rogue that followed us around and would warn the bad guys.

9) Opponents with reach and reach weapons (hill giant with long spear) hitting the sorc/rogue/cleric from a long ways away.

Scarab Sages

You could always borrow our other Dm's dice. Good Lord I've never seen so many 20's get rolled. STOP CRITTING ME!!!

Grand Lodge

Six intelligent players will destroy encounters which are designed for four PCs. Unless you are already making allowances for having extra players, beefing up the encounters is your first step.

The Haste spell requires that all those receiving the spell, nust be within 30' of each other. That is known as fireball formation. A fireball, slow, black tentacles or variety of other spells are most unpleasant when the group is not spread out.

Terrain effects can be helpful. Silence shuts down casters, since it sounds like that is a big issue. If the cleric is using his channeling every round, you need to put more time pressure on the group so they have to tackle more encounters per day. And he can't channel if someone steals his holy symbol.

If the characters have a chance to prep for a fight, then they're likely to have no problems winning. If they are able to prep for every fight, then you are doing something wrong. (If only by not forcing them to tackle more encounters per day).


Tharg The Pirate King wrote:
The most effective monsters to counter players is themseleves. Put them up agaisnt the same make up and force as they are. see if they can handle themsleves.

I always liked that as a player. You'd get so used to fighting critters it was always a nice change to get into it w/ an npc party of anti-hero's.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I'll point out several things.

1) you have six PC's. You have an absolute spellcasting advantage on their part. That is going to hurt. You're going to have to introduce other spellcasting on the part of enemies to counter that.

2) Haste is dispelled adn countered by Slow. As soon as he Hastes, Slow the Party, and it goes away. Have the enemy hasted, FORCE him to slow them. Uses up them level 3 spell slots!

3) AoE damage accumulates faster then AoE healing does. Pepper fireballs, particularly on the casters. Force the cleric to choose between healing the tanks or saving the low hit point mage.

4) never, ever let casters get away with not being threatened if you can help it. The readied archer action is one way. A devoted lesser caster with a wand of magic missiles is another, or a couple scrolls (imagine getting fireballed as you prepare to Slow the enemy...)

5) Potions and buffs on minions can be put right into their stat block. You've got six PC's...have the minions suck down potions of heroism before the fight, adjust accordingly. What do the PC's do when a swarm of minions come charging at them, surrounded in glowing sparklies, moving at incredible speed, weapons ablaze and shining? Dispel or take the hits and the heat?

6) Scrolls make 'casters in a bucket'. Imagine every fight starting out with a couple rogues or bards using scrolls for really effective spells against your PC's, then joining the combat in other manners.

7) Summoned monsters can pop up right next to your casters. Do you charge ahead or let that fiendish boar start gutting your wizard?

===Aelryinth


Monsters with high initiative (you'd be surprised how much of a difference this makes), ambushes, terrain, encounters with varied monster types (this is really, really huge), more caster enemies, higher enemy counts, higher CRs...

As a general rule, add 2 to the CR of any encounter they will be doing. There are 6 of them. That's a lot of actions.

Most importantly, make the melee work for it. Use monsters with fly speeds, higher base land speeds, illusions of melee combatants, etc. These will diffuse some of the melee beatings you've been dealing with. It's very difficult for most Barbarians to deal with a Flyby Attack monster other than holding action until the target is in reach.

Lastly, force them to work past their comfort zone. I'm part of an extraordinarily large play group (we have had as many as 10 PCs at the table) and our last sessions had 7 active players at character level 3. We used approximately 1000g in consumable items (mostly in potion and scroll form, and primarily CLW) in order to keep up with things and our casters (myself included) were completely tapped out by the end of each of the two days we had. In fact, we were more or less running on my Hexes for half of all combats. There's 6 of them. They can handle it.


All of these have been good suggestions so far. The use of terrain and strange modes of movement can be very effective. Also, in that same vein, use monsters they aren't expecting. A bulette is a terrifying and (usually) unexpected foe.


also use burrowers against them. Hard to fight an enemy that you cannot get line of sight/effect on until he is on top of you.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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I don't see the problem. They're playing smart and being rewarded for it, and you still have options (by your own description) to make them step up their game when you want a challenging combat scene. If you're worried about them getting sick of mowing down foes, give them more challenges that aren't murdering fools. Make them chase enemies into crowds, or track down a spy, or investigate a murder, or face environmental challenges, or overcome an innocent foe to accomplish their goals, or face enemies they can't possibly defeat face-to-face and have to outwit/avoid/outmaneuver/outthink.


Send them to the tops of some snow covered mountains for the hazardous environment, narrow ledges with significant drops, avalanches, etc. Send Ice Drakes, yetis, White dragons, ice golems all lead by some npcs with cold and fire
Resist


The answer is Terrain. Force them to fight the environment as well as actual enemies. The foes on thier home turf will act far more effective.

Examples: Lizardmen in a room that's flooding
Morlocks in a small space, where they can crowd the party. (Exclude one enemy from channel? Too bad theirs 5 or more in every burst radius.)
Flying enemies with cliffs
Iron golem + salamanders or other fire creature
Pits of piranhas with narrow beams to cross while taking ranged fire. (Especially good with the archer fish from Tome of Horrors, knock you prone with a ranged touch attack)


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


Party of 6 PCs, all 7th level. Sorceror, cleric, barbarian, rogue/shadowdancer, paladin, Zen Archer monk. They're really making my life difficult. Some tactics:

-- Haste. This is their standard opening: the sorceror does a burst Haste on the whole party. It lasts 7 rounds, which is the duration of most combats, and the sorceror can do this four times per day. The extra move speed is tactically very handy, and the extra attack turns the fighters -- especially the barbarian -- into whirling hurricanes of slashy death.

-- Clever use of buffs and debuffs. They get long-lasting buffs up well in advance, including Protection from Evil on the low-will-save characters. If there's a high-AC opponent in sight, the barbarian gets a Bull's Strength early on, pushing his already-high attack bonus and damage out of sight. With Haste, on a full attack, the barbarian has little difficulty hitting an AC 25 opponent three times for 100 or more points of total damage.

In group combats, mass debuffs are also popular -- the sorceror will generally follow Haste with Slow, while the cleric casts Archon's Wrath. (A spell I have come to loathe, btw, since it requires me to keep careful track not only of who's affected but of who has done what.)

-- Burst heals. The cleric rarely fights; he just casts buffs and burst heals. (He has the feat that lets him exclude one enemy.) 4d6 on the whole party every round = it's very hard to bring PCs down just by doing damage. We recently had a mass combat where the barbarian and the smiting paladin took the fore, with the cleric just standing behind them healing and buffing. They were able to mow their way through something like 20 CR 3 opponents to reach the CR 9 boss in like three rounds.

Starting targeting the cleric first. If you target the meatshields and the cleric is undoing your damage then you are fighting a losing battle.

After the cleric go after the arcane caster. If the battle gets to the point where the bad guys have no chance of winning then have them run away. They can come back later with backup, and now they know how the party fights.

Liberty's Edge

Stefan Hill wrote:
F-U-D-G-E...

No, please don't.


Throw more NPCs at them.

I have my players provide me with a very brief description of their appearance on the field of combat. I provide the same for the enemy (race, armour, equipment in hand, other small details, something physical).

With this I try to think more like a player - which foe should I target first - he looks like a caster, she looks like a meatshield, he looks like a Bard (KILL! KILL!).

Now as a GM I am playing a party of professional adventurers - a group of people who know how to work together and know who to target and how to best use their skills.

To create this I reach for the GameMastery pdf, print some NPCs from the Gallery that I like, write all over them swapping feats and equipment etc. Then I set them side by side and think about how they can work together, synergise if you will.

Another useful tactic, especially with NPCs though monsters may well use it too, is to retreat, regroup and re-attack. Have them run off, and be out of the picture for an hour. With the second attack the NPCs will probably be better prepared, maybe even brought some more friends along.

Rinse and repeat till the big leader needs to step in to help his minions.

I also have six 7th level players. I threw a half-dragon with 8 levels in Rogue with a Sor9 and Ftr 9 at them last level, and the PCs mopped the floor with them. My three NPCs made a hasty retreat and have since recruited another Ftr 9, and maybe a Wizard too. This kind of recurring villain (party) becomes a lot of fun as the two parties get to know each others tactics.


make use oftemplates and use multiple templates on single creatures.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Evil Bards!!!! Especially if you are throwing tons of mooks at them! A couple 5th level bards buffing a dozen 4th level fighters would be pretty awesome. Fill the fighters up with some teamwork feats like outflank and precise strike, and they'll have +12 or +15 on their attack rolls if they also have Weapon Focus and masterwork weapons.

Edit:

Also try some of those neat tricks players use, like that dual-wielding keen kukris rogue with Butterfly Sting and barbarian/fighter with great axe, with the rogue giving his crits to the axewielder.


I've got a group a bit like the group you are talking about myself and it is a very nasty combination.

However here are my observations:

Battlefield Control spells like Web and Grease are incredible. Most of the 'vital' characters (cleric, witch) was amongst those hit by the level 7 wizard's Black Tentacles and for those 7 rounds they were torn to pieces (well, the Witch was, the Cleric survived, but was injured). Grease hits hard on those heavy armored fighter types in their full plates, since they lack Acrobatics.

Bards are insane leaders. No, seriously, bards are just that good! A level 7 bard foe uses his move action on starting the monologue about how come he is awesome (oratory bardic performance to Inspire Courage), while hiding his Good Hope spell using Spellsong (so it appears to be part of the bardic action). That's +4 to hit, +4 damage, +2 saves to the bards allies! Round 2 he makes a few twirls with his rapier for a Dazzling Display and enemies demoralized. (I know this works, because that's what the Bard does in my current group).


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A Man In Black wrote:
Make them chase enemies into crowds,

You just gave me a fantastic idea to throw into my game... The "terrain" is actually helpless innocents tied vertically to posts in the ground. Let's see the Hero's use AoE attack effects then ;) Especially since my players have a Paladin in the group. Yummy idea, thanks!!


Beorn the Bear wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Make them chase enemies into crowds,
You just gave me a fantastic idea to throw into my game... The "terrain" is actually helpless innocents tied vertically to posts in the ground. Let's see the Hero's use AoE attack effects then ;) Especially since my players have a Paladin in the group. Yummy idea, thanks!!

I used this.. unfortunately the mystic theurge had selective spell, burned the boggards to crisps.


Remco Sommeling wrote:
Beorn the Bear wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Make them chase enemies into crowds,
You just gave me a fantastic idea to throw into my game... The "terrain" is actually helpless innocents tied vertically to posts in the ground. Let's see the Hero's use AoE attack effects then ;) Especially since my players have a Paladin in the group. Yummy idea, thanks!!
I used this.. unfortunately the mystic theurge had selective spell, burned the boggards to crisps.

I hope he had prepared all the spells that way, or was he spontaneous caster? also, I am thinking like, almost every other square, not just a few. I think someone in Razmir's employ would employ such a dastardly tactic.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
while the cleric casts Archon's Wrath. (A spell I have come to loathe, btw, since it requires me to keep careful track not only of who's affected but of who has done what.)

Is this a new spell?

I can't find it.

Silver Crusade

I have found that maxing out the creatures hp have always helped out as well.


Zark wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
while the cleric casts Archon's Wrath. (A spell I have come to loathe, btw, since it requires me to keep careful track not only of who's affected but of who has done what.)

Is this a new spell?

I can't find it.

Me neither, the only thing i found is the UM spell archon's aura but this doesn't seem a pain to handle.

Scarab Sages

Just a thought, but if your 20x CR 3 guys are all lvl 4 alchemists then the party should be afraid... very afraid...

Especially if they know the PCs are coming and can buff with their mutagen and shield extract. (Dex Mutagen + Shield = +8 AC)

20 bombs flying at the party should be roughly 40d6 (+Int) worth of bombs plus splash damage...

After all there if the recurring enemy is a high level alchemist, maybe he has gone and done some recruitment. Or the PCs have finally tracked him to his lab and all his assistants.

And to change things up a bit, you can some of them with the default bombs and others throwing cold or acid bombs.

Throw in some smoke bombs or other vision inhibiters and the battlefield will get complicated real fast on who can see what... and if the cleric can't see a target, then he can't exclude it via selective channelling... :)

Having said that, if the party is working like a well oiled machine, you don't want to challenge them too often, give them they time in the spotlight (just have other enemies make notes on what they do for later... :)


W. John Hare wrote:
Just a thought, but if your 20x CR 3 guys are all lvl 4 alchemists then the party should be afraid... very afraid...

QFT but this is very cheesy everywhere outside an alchemists school.

Very often GMs are put on the defensive due to the fact that they have to run multiple opponents while the PCs can concentrate on wringing everything out of their one character.

So make a battle plan beforehand. Let the NPCs have advantages. If the Sorceror gets to cast Haste and Slow every time then let him be pinpointed by archers or rushed by wolves. Bring on a lot of mooks that the Barbarian and the archer will overkill while these still do damage (buff them by an evil Bard/Priest). Up the CR until the Barbarian and the Archer will have a hard time hitting the target. Play on unhallowed ground where healing is diminuished.

In other words do everything thats still fair and in character to screw their battle plan - don't fall for the "at the end of the hall you see 10 Orcs, roll initiative" stereotype.


I'd just like to add that there's nothing wrong with jacking up the CR for encounters if the players are extremely competent. I basically treat my players as APL+2 due to player skill, and it gets us the challenge we want.

We consider a "weak" fight to be at APL, and a "boss fight" to be APL+4 or more.


Evil Lincoln wrote:

I'd just like to add that there's nothing wrong with jacking up the CR for encounters if the players are extremely competent. I basically treat my players as APL+2 due to player skill, and it gets us the challenge we want.

We consider a "weak" fight to be at APL, and a "boss fight" to be APL+4 or more.

I generally do this, but I try to do it primarily with numbers instead of individual CR. One important thing is if you have a large party that is well balanced, you want to divide up the power more evenly in your encounters.

To the OP, a bunch of CR 3 mooks and a CR 9 boss isn't a great idea. The CR 3s are just speed bumps, and the CR 9 will be overwhelmed by the action economy. If you want to sprinkle in weak minions (more then 3 lower in CR then the APL) go ahead, but dont make them part of your plan. I believe almost every encounter should match or exceed the party in numbers and that each of those numbers should be close to the APL in CR or higher.

Keep in mind that the average combat lasts 5 rounds, so if you expect the party to have to cut through enemies for a long time before getting to the big bad, you will likely be surprised. Especially with a well rounded party as you have, it will rarely be that simple.


None of my player's read this! You have been warned!

Utter Doom if you are my player and you read this:

Use monsters they are not expecting. I just got the Tome of Horror reprint, and I'm going to be using some elementals from this book on the players next game. These particular elementals not being normals ones are going to throw the players (I have 6 as well) for a loop. Especially the whole 'explody on death' aspect. On top of that, they're going to be in an environment where the two big hitters in the party are going to have to be squeezing 80% of the time (places built for small creatures), so the ceilngs are all 5 feet high, thus slowing the medium people down, preventing them from taking 5 foot steps due to terrain issues, etc. No charging, a host of issues that will play havok with their normal fighting style. Also, packed in areas for the most part, so it will be difficult to get the right people up front to do damage.

Grand Lodge

Combat maneuvers, my friend. A couple of monks tumble through the fighters, grab the casters and start choking the crud out of them. Works until your casters pick up freedom of movement, then you need to grab that grapple specialized monk from Ultimate Combat. Or more dispels, I suppose.

Or you could have have one or two guys try to trip the fighters (probably hard, since fighters have high CMD). Give a couple of guys some whips, and a few trip feats, have them start tripping from range. It takes a move action to stand up, and that provokes attacks of opportunity. Besides that, they take a -4 to attacks when prone, which more than cancels out bull's strength and haste. Maybe throw in some wolves (players hate those). Automatic trip attacks on a bite is always fun. Give them a few templates and they can be quite terrifying.


mdt wrote:

None of my player's read this! You have been warned!

** spoiler omitted **

Agreed:
I picked up the new reprint of the Tome of Horrors book mostly for this reason. Tons of monsters we are far less familiar with then what is in the bestiary or even the bestiary 2.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

One variation of the "explody death" I used once was the Charnel Hound from MM3. It's a Huge hound made out of Small and Medium sized corpses. I put my 6 or 8 PCs against one once, and when it died, and they were celebrating, all the component corpses rose as a mob of 40 or so zombies. This is a special quality I added to the standard charnel hound.

You might want to customize or make specialized versions of the monsters you run to challenge your party.

Dark Archive

Enemy casters are the biggest bane; slow completely knocks out haste with no save. 4d6 shouldn't be keeping up with your monster's damage output.

It sounds like the party is primarily playing in dungeons, where buffs can take them through multiple fights. Overland travel with a time limit and spaced encounters are good challenges here. If you do expect the party to be able to be buffed up and moving through, up CRs, the monsters need counter-buffing. This is especially true if bad guys can hear party members.

The easiest PC fights are those where the PCs are aware of the oncoming fight, fully buff, and enter the fray. It gets much more chaotic when they can't have everything on their terms; and especially if they rely on buffs and have to fight too many fights.

But sounds like they are working smart and as a team, so good for them in general :).


Grapple
Throw in some NPCs or monsters that have super high CMBs
A Viper Vine would work great for your group. 4 Tentacle attacks with a 20' reach and a +28 grapple can really be a challenge. Plus its Captivating Cloud ability will lock down your PCs with low Will Saves. Sure, it's a CR 13, but 6 lvl 7 PCs might be a match for it. If not, save it for later.

Make them move around a lot.
Characters that have to move can't make full round attacks. Get some villians with reach and always have them take a 5' step back after they attack. You only have to force the PCs to move 10' to hamper their attack options. Using mosters with a Trip attack or Bull Rush works too, because it forces the PCs to us a move action to stand, plus they draws an AoO when they get up.

Max out the villains Hit Points
Always set the monsters to Max Hit Points.

Damage Reduction
DR is a great way to cut back on the PCs damage capacity without making them frustrated like a super high AC might. A sorcerer casting Stone Skin on the villains is an easy way to accomplish this without limiting your selection of monsters.

Magic Dead Areas
Occasionally throw a nasty monster in a dead magic area to negate the PC's advantage. Don't do this too often though, because it can really make things boring for your spell casters.

One important thing to keep in mind is not to "negate" the party's hard work outright. Don't do things that make their feats and plans completely worthless. It'll just upset your players and make all of the party's tactical planning a waste of game time. It's better to set things up so they NEED to do all that planning and have their tactics laid out properly.

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