My PCs are kicking butt -- help me raise my game, please


Advice

101 to 114 of 114 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

One of my GMs ran into this problem with us. We had a Sorcerer, Alchemist, Paladin and Fighter. At the beginning of the encounter the fighter and paladin would pop either their heroism or enlarge person potions that the alchemist gave them at the beginning of the day. Then the sorcerer would cast slow or confuse on most of the enemies. Then any slowed enemies the alchemist would set on fire, since they are unable to take the full round action to put out alchemical fire.

We would tare through 10-16 hill giants per encounter with these strategies. We never really worried about healing because between potions and channeling positive energy, and the fact that we rarely took much damage anyways...except me as the alchemist, we were pretty hard to kill.

One way to combat this is opponents with class levels. A good counter to the slow tactics would be to pit them against evil monks, clerics and rangers who all have pretty decent will saves. Monks and rangers are also an arcane caster's worst nightmare between good saves, good damage and the ability to fight from range or up close. Also undead are good. Swarm tactics and ability damage plus some really nasty special effects that make them a real pain to fight if you are not at least 1oth level.

Also don't be afraid to sometimes just say that they get hit by arrows. If you have 10 archers shooting at you at once then there is just no way that you can dodge them all. Have 1 out of every 3-4 arrows just hit no questions asked. Same for melee attacks. Even the greatest of fighters can be overwhelmed by numbers. I have been in war campaigns where we as lvl 17 adventurers would still on occasion almost go down, or actually go down in the cases of our sorcerer, paladin and rouge, simply because we were fighting 15 lvl 7s each plus arrow damage and spell damage.

Hope this helps.

Grand Lodge

Ethan Queen wrote:

One of my GMs ran into this problem with us. We had a Sorcerer, Alchemist, Paladin and Fighter. At the beginning of the encounter the fighter and paladin would pop either their heroism or enlarge person potions that the alchemist gave them at the beginning of the day. Then the sorcerer would cast slow or confuse on most of the enemies. Then any slowed enemies the alchemist would set on fire, since they are unable to take the full round action to put out alchemical fire.

We would tare through 10-16 hill giants per encounter with these strategies. We never really worried about healing because between potions and channeling positive energy, and the fact that we rarely took much damage anyways...except me as the alchemist, we were pretty hard to kill.

One way to combat this is opponents with class levels. A good counter to the slow tactics would be to pit them against evil monks, clerics and rangers who all have pretty decent will saves. Monks and rangers are also an arcane caster's worst nightmare between good saves, good damage and the ability to fight from range or up close. Also undead are good. Swarm tactics and ability damage plus some really nasty special effects that make them a real pain to fight if you are not at least 1oth level.

Also don't be afraid to sometimes just say that they get hit by arrows. If you have 10 archers shooting at you at once then there is just no way that you can dodge them all. Have 1 out of every 3-4 arrows just hit no questions asked. Same for melee attacks. Even the greatest of fighters can be overwhelmed by numbers. I have been in war campaigns where we as lvl 17 adventurers would still on occasion almost go down, or actually go down in the cases of our sorcerer, paladin and rouge, simply because we were fighting 15 lvl 7s each plus arrow damage and spell damage.

Hope this helps.

I would avoid the "I hit you x number of times, because I do" argument. It is sort of vexing as a player to simply take damage because the GM wants you to or thinks you should. With ten arrows coming out per character, chances are good you'll crit once every two rounds.

One thing that is more or less an "I hit you" move is ranged touch attacks though. Never underestimate the power of scorching ray, and don't forget that you can crit with it (rays are treated as x2 weapons).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

harte035 wrote:
Ethan Queen wrote:


Hope this helps.

I would avoid the "I hit you x number of times, because I do" argument. It is sort of vexing as a player to simply take damage because the GM wants you to or thinks you should. With ten arrows coming out per character, chances are good you'll crit once every two rounds.

One thing that is more or less an "I hit you" move is ranged touch attacks though. Never underestimate the power of scorching ray, and don't forget that you can crit with it (rays are treated as x2 weapons).

This is why I love the old warlock class. The damage scales in such a way that it's always a significant, if not deadly, threat, and the various eldritch essence invocations can be fun carrier effects, like catching on fire, continual acid damage, pushing PCs off ledges or into other hazards, blinding them, sickening them, making them shaken, giving them negative levels, etc. etc.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, Warlocks can be kind of ridiculous. Especially with the low level spider climb for vertical mobility. Combine that with the long range ray, and they can seriously seriously annoy your party.


This has all been said here already, but I'm in the mood to type.

Make your minions smart. They've had time to practice maneuvers, right? Think ahead to how they would proceed. And make your attacks multi-dimensional.

Example: my six players are level 7, and they were accompanied by a few high-powered NPCs. A sorceress and an arcane archer are above the fray and just behind the tree line on a flying broom. Everyone else is in the open and buffed.

The enemy consisted of three chariots, drawn by two centaurs each, with one driver and one free attacker. Six swordsmen on foot. Six dogs (worthless). And one invisible witch flying on a hippogriff (also invisible). This was the second such encounter with this configuration, minus the witch, and minus the tactics I was about to introduce. The first encounter lasted two rounds and none of the PCs were harmed.

This time the centaurs used the Run feat to cover a whole bunch of ground and steer clear of the party. The attackers in back of the chariots threw nets and managed to ensnare the rogue and drag him in the dirt behind them. The monk ran and caught up to a second chariot and started duking it out there. The third chariot kept circling and firing poisoned darts.

The witch showed up in round two. I like this technique of the "late arriver" because the characters have already committed to a battle plan with incomplete knowledge of the situation. Anyways, the characters had met her before and killed her familiar, a hawk. Her magic in this encounter was all sourced through potions (and possibly not RAW, but the players enjoyed her next move). She flew in undetected close to the sorceress and archer on the broom, and tossed her dead familiar onto them. The hawk exploded in a vomit swarm of spiders and pretty much hosed their concentration for the next few rounds.

Meanwhile the rogue failed two escape artist checks in a row, one while he was being dragged, and the other after he had been dropped off next to the swordsmen. They stabbed him and killed him while he was still stuck in the net (never before seen this, by the way: out of 6 attackers surrounding him, 4 confirmed crits. The rogue was obviously destined to die).

A whole bunch of other things happened and the party emerged victorious, but it was a close thing.


Lvl 12 Procrastinator wrote:

This has all been said here already, but I'm in the mood to type.

Make your minions smart. They've had time to practice maneuvers, right? Think ahead to how they would proceed. And make your attacks multi-dimensional.

Example: my six players are level 7, and they were accompanied by a few high-powered NPCs. A sorceress and an arcane archer are above the fray and just behind the tree line on a flying broom. Everyone else is in the open and buffed.

The enemy consisted of three chariots, drawn by two centaurs each, with one driver and one free attacker. Six swordsmen on foot. Six dogs (worthless). And one invisible witch flying on a hippogriff (also invisible). This was the second such encounter with this configuration, minus the witch, and minus the tactics I was about to introduce. The first encounter lasted two rounds and none of the PCs were harmed.

This time the centaurs used the Run feat to cover a whole bunch of ground and steer clear of the party. The attackers in back of the chariots threw nets and managed to ensnare the rogue and drag him in the dirt behind them. The monk ran and caught up to a second chariot and started duking it out there. The third chariot kept circling and firing poisoned darts.

The witch showed up in round two. I like this technique of the "late arriver" because the characters have already committed to a battle plan with incomplete knowledge of the situation. Anyways, the characters had met her before and killed her familiar, a hawk. Her magic in this encounter was all sourced through potions (and possibly not RAW, but the players enjoyed her next move). She flew in undetected close to the sorceress and archer on the broom, and tossed her dead familiar onto them. The hawk exploded in a vomit swarm of spiders and pretty much hosed their concentration for the next few rounds.

Meanwhile the rogue failed two escape artist checks in a row, one while he was being dragged, and the other after he had been dropped off next to the swordsmen. They stabbed...

Very cool setup. Im in awe, well, a little awe.


Party of 6 PCs, all 7th level. Sorceror, cleric, barbarian, rogue/shadowdancer, paladin, Zen Archer monk. They're really making my life difficult. Some tactics:

-- Haste. (Slow counters Haste and if your caster can use it four times a day and you want to challenge them, give them six encounters, including one with a caster who casts Slow.)

-- Clever use of buffs and debuffs. (Once again, NPC casters can do anything PCs can. Let your NPCs prebuff, particularly if the PCs are raiding a fortified position and the enemy has time to prepare. Ray of Enervation is a counter to Bull's Strength. Also, if your critters are too crunchy don't be afraid to give them maximum hit points. I'm not familiar with Archon's Wrath but if it's that annoying just use it against the PCs until they get the hint {or the equivalent spell with an opposite alignment - call it Overlord's Fury or something})

-- Burst heals. (Mix your NPCs in with the Pcs. If the cleric can only exclude one person from healing and there are three enemies within range, two are getting healed. Also, focus-fire the cleric so that he has to concentrate on healing himself, possibly while within a monster's threatened area.)

On one hand, I can't complain too hard -- the players aren't bending the rules, they're just playing cleverly. (Good on you! Too many DMs take the lazy man's route and just limit party options to something they feel comfortable handling.) I don't want to just mirror their tactics back at them; that would be boring. (Consider using NPC monks or rogues to hamper casters. Grappling is a death sentence for a low-UMB/UMD caster and there are several sneak attack and stunning fist abilities that can hamper or disable casting.)

In general: Anything with the ability to use touch attacks should screw this party pretty hard, given their low touch ACs. Try shadows and ghosts, and ray spells. A group of warlocks should be able to pretty easily stay out of reach and hit the party with long-distance blasts. Any group of creatures with a climb or fly speed and a few archery feats could prove similarly difficult for them to overcome...


mcbobbo wrote:


Same goes for the Saving Throws issue above. Assuming they're not arcane casters is probably logical. Assuming they have low will saves, which do not exist in the game world by the way, probably isn't. Especially, like in the case of clerics and/or other races, it isn't always the case.

No, saving throws don't exist in the game world. However, after achieving 7th level, I think it's pretty fair to guess that these characters have slung a good variety of spells at a good variety of targets. Assuming they're not completely unobservant dolts, don't you think they'd notice the tendency for heavily armored folk to not resist certain types of spells? They don't have to know the mechanics of Will Saves vs. spells to understand the results.


If i where you i would just wear them down make the casters use up there spells hit them with what looks like a big fight only to have the monsters run off after 2 or 3 ronds then have them return a couple of hours later
Or use an over run attack to get at the casters take a load of cr 1-2 creatures and just have them charge the party a few can engage the fighters the rest go stright past and hit the spellcasters again just allow the fight to go on for a few rounds then have them retreat
Having been in the army i know how well hit and run tacties work and if all else fails just get the drop on them and hit them with the biggest AoE spell you have good luck


Another possibility (especially for BBEG End-Boss fights) is that the boss has somehow spied on the PCs as they wrecked his life long work to finally get to him and is prepared to greet them with a few nasty surprises.

An example:
After battling their way through an evil temple the PCs finally arrive in the great cathedralesque room where the "evil ritual" is just about to take place. This works especially well if you imprint a sense of urgency on the Players (captured cultists speak of "soon all will be over and your world is lost, he, he").

As the PCs enter the hall they see a ritual in full swing. A robed cultist stands over an evil altar on which a lovely maiden is chained. About 30 cultists attend the meeting, oviously in a frenzy. Roll initiative.

What this could be:
Now this could be the usual 25 mooks of CR-3 with 4 melee sergeants of CR-1 and a boss-priest of CR+2 encounter that your party will wreck. The mooks are too weak to really challenge the PCs even with flanking. The sergeants can pose a threat but will probably not get past the tanks to the squishy targets. The boss will buff his sergeants a bit, maybe throw a dispel around and go down in 2 rounds max to full atacks.

What this should be:
A trap! Several key elements are not what they seem. The robed cultist is only a sergeant, the real boss is hiding improved invisible. The sergeants are pre buffed (Prot from Arrows). Two of the mooks in the last row are devils (replaces two sergeants from the above example) with a good bluff skill, pretending to get cut down with all the other suckers in the first combat round.

As the party moves forward, mowing down mooks left and right, the sergeants resort to ranged attacks, either by archery or, more stylish, by spells/wands. A Hold Person on the Rogue (allowing the mooks coup-de-grace attacks), followed by a Stinking cloud to maybe trap the Priest and to divide the two tanks from the Sorc/Archer can be devastating.

Meanwhile the BBEG resorts to dispel magic against obnoxious spells like protection from fire or haste ("suddenly you realize that your spell is gone but you can't figure out why") or on debuffs ("Blindness").

As the party moves forward the devils spring into action, preferrably in the very moment that the Stinking Cloud goes up and latch themselves on the Sorc and the Archer, the Priest and Rogue should be occupied and the tanks find they are needed in the back rather than the front - chaos ensues.

To put some icing on the cake you can invent new magic items and/or spells for the boss. In the above examples a spell like "Corpse Explosion" would not only fit the setting (evil cult) but also punish the PCs once most of the mooks have been killed and thus keep up the pressure.

With this setup you are likely to challenge your party just by the fact that unexpected things happen, CR-wise the first and the second example are the same, and yet it is a world of a difference.


alientude wrote:
No, saving throws don't exist in the game world. However, after achieving 7th level, I think it's pretty fair to guess that these characters have slung a good variety of spells at a good variety of targets. Assuming they're not completely unobservant dolts, don't you think they'd notice the tendency for heavily armored folk to not resist certain types of spells? They don't have to know the mechanics of Will Saves vs. spells to understand the results.

Heavily armored types seem to have pretty decent will saves in my experience. In the core book, most of the heavy armor characters I see are fighters (bad base will save, but most have decent wis and iron will/imp. iron will at some point), paladins (excellent will save), barbarians (worst, but still +2 during rage), and clerics (excellent will save). I've seen many fighters start out with better will saves than wizards or sorcerers.

At least, the characters shouldn't be so sure heavy armor means bad will.


Of the classes you listed, only fighters and paladins have heavy armor proficiency. If the majority of the clerics they've run into have taken it, then sure, the generalization goes out. As for paladins, unless this is a non-good party, it's doubtful they've even fought one before.

Fighters can take the Iron Will feats, of course, but like clerics, that's an optional build decision, and it'd be kind of odd for the majority of the enemies they've run across to have that feat selection.

Besides the observation skills of the party, wouldn't it be likely in a world with magic that magic users would know generalizations about who is weak to certain types of their magic?


MicMan wrote:

Another possibility (especially for BBEG End-Boss fights) is that the boss has somehow spied on the PCs as they wrecked his life long work to finally get to him and is prepared to greet them with a few nasty surprises.

An example:
After battling their way through an evil temple the PCs finally arrive in the great cathedralesque room where the "evil ritual" is just about to take place. This works especially well if you imprint a sense of urgency on the Players (captured cultists speak of "soon all will be over and your world is lost, he, he").

As the PCs enter the hall they see a ritual in full swing. A robed cultist stands over an evil altar on which a lovely maiden is chained. About 30 cultists attend the meeting, oviously in a frenzy. Roll initiative.

What this could be:
Now this could be the usual 25 mooks of CR-3 with 4 melee sergeants of CR-1 and a boss-priest of CR+2 encounter that your party will wreck. The mooks are too weak to really challenge the PCs even with flanking. The sergeants can pose a threat but will probably not get past the tanks to the squishy targets. The boss will buff his sergeants a bit, maybe throw a dispel around and go down in 2 rounds max to full atacks.

What this should be:
A trap! Several key elements are not what they seem. The robed cultist is only a sergeant, the real boss is hiding improved invisible. The sergeants are pre buffed (Prot from Arrows). Two of the mooks in the last row are devils (replaces two sergeants from the above example) with a good bluff skill, pretending to get cut down with all the other suckers in the first combat round.

As the party moves forward, mowing down mooks left and right, the sergeants resort to ranged attacks, either by archery or, more stylish, by spells/wands. A Hold Person on the Rogue (allowing the mooks coup-de-grace attacks), followed by a Stinking cloud to maybe trap the Priest and to divide the two tanks from the Sorc/Archer can be devastating.

Meanwhile the BBEG resorts to dispel magic...

Use 2 Babau demons (CR6) to drop darkness and dispel magic on the party to assist in splitting them up. An additional Nabasau demon (CR8) hiding in the rafters (+23 stealth in shadowy conditions) can provide support with deeper darkness, enervation, and telekinesis.

The BBEG is a conjuration spec wizard that can dimension door as a standard action so he can flit from platform to platform and blast the PC's as they try to counter his minions.

Man, that would be an awesome encounter.


To the OP, I have 2 comments:

a) A 6-member party is *not* APL+1. I recommend adding 1 to the APL for each person over the expected 4. And then adjusting further based on wealth, stats and synergy.

b) Your party is making excellent use of planning and buffs -- so why aren't the bad guys doing this too? When sounds of combat are coming down the hall because your mooks are getting killed, an intelligent foe will either flee or buff up to deal with the oncoming opposition. And they'll also find the most advantageous terrain -- so the rogue won't be up with his boss where he can be fireballed, he'll be inivisible or at least stealthed near the door, waiting to get the mages in the back once the fight starts.

Having said that, as other people have suggested, bards make wonderful bosses (or sub-bosses) because they can beef up "grunt" warrior types into something much nastier.

One thing I cannot recommend enough when you're building encounters, spend a percentage of the NPC's gear allowance on consumables -- and then use them. Remember that first level potions cost 50gp -- and most people would rather spend that than face death (and this combines with the pre-buffing from above)... Net result, so when they bust down the door to the boss, they see that his Warrior 5 mooks are already enlarged, sporting Shield of Faith for +2AC, etc. Give them spider climb and have them drop down from above for surprise. Even second-level potions are cheaper than giving everyone a magic weapon, and that lets the enlarged mooks be Bull's Strength-ed, for instance.

I tend to hate the one-boss, all-mook type of encounter, since the mooks are usually easily IDed -- as such, I tend to follow a formula where the boss gets a leftennant (at level -2ish), and then use the rest of the budget on mooks. That way, the party can't save all their "big" resources for the big guy (smites, etc.) because there's another reasonably big guy that they can't afford to ignore -- and may not know which is which at the time they arrive, either.

And, finally, have the bad-guys use some battlefield control. Make them waste their buffs fighting their way through sleet storms. If you see a party of enlarged hasted people coming at you, negate all that by locking them behind a Wall of Ice for a while. Use a reach weapon and Interposing Hand to keep people back. Swap out one powerful caster for two lower-level ones and have *them* use good tactics in their spell selections [For instance, one Stinking Clouds them while the other makes ice so they can't leave the area easily (and then use the mooks with AoO's to try to keep them in the cloud)].

MUKid wrote:
I know it's hard unless I call out specific encounters, but any general advice from you seasoned folks for running pre-gen encounters against optimized parties?

Depends on the encounter -- there's really no hard or fast rule - since what you can do, but:

- Add a few more bad guys mooks via cloning (Suddenly... 6 kobolds become 8 or 9)
- Copy the leader of the group (so there's 2 clerics or bards with the grunts)
- Slap some simple templates on them (Advanced or Giant, for instance)

Beyond that, if you're preparing a bit ahead of time, you can also follow some of the suggestions (above) -- especially (again) the potions and scrolls are your friend bit.

101 to 114 of 114 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / My PCs are kicking butt -- help me raise my game, please All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.