RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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This.No you can't. Or rather you can only upgrade to an item you can find in the Allowed Resources list. None of those tomes has a price structure for upgraded named items. If you can't find it in a book, or a chronicle, you can't buy it, nor can up upgrade something to it.
Your only option is to sell the item completely at half price to fund the purchase of an allowable item.
The bolded part is what now has me convinced.
It's a shame, though. I have a character who would (eventually) be very interested in getting Elven Chain and then enchanting it.
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Semantic quibble. "+3 (mithral) chainmail" and "+3 elven chain" are the same thing.No, they're not. Mithral lightens an armor's weight category for most purposes (movement, for instance), but not proficiency. Elven Chain counts as light even for proficiency.
<hand-wave infinite-monkeys-looping motion>
I know, Jacob -- and the whole mess stems from the fact that Paizo did a real botch job of attempting to "fix" what they apparently thought was a problem regarding mithral armors on DEX-beast AC monsters, while leaving unaddressed the 3rd-edition wackiness of listing a masterwork armor in the "Magical Armors" section with a +1000gp price bump...I guess being made by elves, like Keebler cookies, was an extra special material property or something in 3.5 D&D. "It's extra elfy!"
I mean, here we have the best armor in the game (Celestial Armor) being described as so light you can wear it under your clothes, yet being saddled with this tacked-on proficiency note (added by Paizo after porting the text verbatim from 3.5) -- as if, for some dumb reason, any NPC noble let alone professional adventurer commissioning the stuff wouldn't spring for the extra 1000gp cost differential of elven chain and mithral chain so they wouldn't need medium armor proficiency (and there's probably a few DMs out there who'd argue you'll be fatigued if you sleep in it).
The REAL way to fix this would have been to just indicate that mithral changes armor weight category including proficiency -- and then increase the cost of the things that are considered broken (and Celestial Armor clearly is broken offering an AC+16 dex/armor combo for only 22,000gp).
(An even better fix would be to junk the whole armor system and replace it with the method that GURPs uses -- Paizo makes a tentative step in this direction with an "optional" system in Ultimate Combat.)
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This.No you can't. Or rather you can only upgrade to an item you can find in the Allowed Resources list. None of those tomes has a price structure for upgraded named items. If you can't find it in a book, or a chronicle, you can't buy it, nor can up upgrade something to it.
Your only option is to sell the item completely at half price to fund the purchase of an allowable item.
The bolded part is what now has me convinced.
It's a shame, though. I have a character who would (eventually) be very interested in getting Elven Chain and then enchanting it.
I actually think Elven Chain is a poor example for this topic, simply because it doesn't actually carry an enchantment of any sort. It's just ansuit of mithral chain, really...as far as I know, Elven Chain can be enhanced simply because
There's no prior enchantments to gum up the works.
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i upgraded my character's celestial armor with the "shadow" ability. its a flat bonus, and didn't depend on what + the armor was. certain upgrades are fine. but it would be harder to calculate what a celestial armor's fly ability, or its greater dex bonus vs. chainmail would be worth. i would lean toward not being able to upgrade "special" armors. An adamantine weapon or mithril weapon like the ones listed , are just listed to have a pricing example to get a +1 adamantine longsword for example, or +1 mithril shirt or +1 elven chainmail. upgrading those would be perfectly legal.
as long as the total price of the item is within your prestige/fame buying restrictions, and you have the gold for the upgrade.
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You bring up a good point...some enhancements to armor are a flat cost and not associated with the +1/+2/+3 bonus escalating costs. Since there is no way to determine what the extras on named armor are worth in terms of a + bonus I would say that they are worth some flat cost like shadow or slick or glamored. This way you have an exact + bonus for those armors (what is told you in the text / +3 for celestial) that you can base other enhancements on.
This is completely my own reasoning on this as there is absolutely no guidelines for named armor.
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yah.
you *could* try to price it in a home game, gm permitting, by looking at the cost - the cost of what the item is. ex. celestial armor again. cost is 22,400. vs. +3 chainmail ( 9,350gp? ) = 13,050gp price diff. then decide , if you're upgrading to +4 armor, whether +7000gp to the price of the celestial armor is valid in your game for a unique suit of +4 celestial armor =/
b/c there's too much checking and room for error, there's pretty much no way this would be allowed in organized play though.
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b/c there's too much checking and room for error, there's pretty much no way this would be allowed in organized play though.Really what would have to be done is what would be done in a home campaign:
The DM makes up values for the higher enchantments on these armors if he allows them in the first place.
The DM in organized campaigns is the campaign administration. So they decide if they want +4 (or higher) Celestial Armor and make prices accordingly.
Now this is different than pricing the cost to upgrade a +1 longsword to a +2 holy longsword, or pricing the cost to enchant a ring of protection +2 with invisibility. These are laid out in the core rules.
This later could (and imho really should) be allowed in an organized campaign. The should comes in when the organized campaign wishes to parallel the core rules as much as is possible.
Thus places with DM calls (pricing +4 light-fortification shadow Celestial Armor) would be iffy and done directly by the administration if at all, while places that the core rules define (+4 light-fortification shadow elven chainmail) would be allowed.
-James
Do you think taking the pricing of named armor and rounding it to the closest enhancement price would work for the process of improving upon said armor and for Fame and PP purposes?
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Personally I think that the DM (in this case the campaign administration) should look at each item and decide first IF it should be allowed, and then how much it should cost rather than a quick blanket statement without looking at all of the items in question.-James
I hope you're not suggesting that the Guide include a comprehensive list of named items that can be upgrades and how much it would cost to add enhancements.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I hope you're not suggesting that the Guide include a comprehensive list of named items that can be upgrades and how much it would cost to add enhancements.
Personally I think that the DM (in this case the campaign administration) should look at each item and decide first IF it should be allowed, and then how much it should cost rather than a quick blanket statement without looking at all of the items in question.-James
Though having such a list in the FAQ (with a reference to it in the Guide) might not be such a bad idea.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I hope you're not suggesting that the Guide include a comprehensive list of named items that can be upgrades and how much it would cost to add enhancements.
Personally I think that the DM (in this case the campaign administration) should look at each item and decide first IF it should be allowed, and then how much it should cost rather than a quick blanket statement without looking at all of the items in question.-James
How about:
Named non-magical items (ie. Elven Chain, Hellknight Armor) may be enchanted and upgraded as any other non-magical armor. Specific material cost will be noted in the item's description.
Named magical items may be upgraded by paying the cost difference between the upgraded price and the named price. In cases where an item has a numerical bonus (ie. +1, +2, etc) and magical abilities that are not tied to a known enhancement bonus, the cost of the magical ability can be assumed to be the cost difference between the total item cost and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus. In this case, you may only start with the named item, and upgrade it with additional magical enchantments. You may not start with a lesser item or different item and add the named ability."
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I hope you're not suggesting that the Guide include a comprehensive list of named items that can be upgrades and how much it would cost to add enhancements.
Personally I think that the DM (in this case the campaign administration) should look at each item and decide first IF it should be allowed, and then how much it should cost rather than a quick blanket statement without looking at all of the items in question.-James
How about:
Named non-magical items (ie. Elven Chain, Hellknight Armor) may be enchanted and upgraded as any other non-magical armor. Specific material cost will be noted in the item's description.
Named magical items may be upgraded by paying the cost difference between the upgraded price and the named price. In cases where an item has a numerical bonus (ie. +1, +2, etc) and magical abilities that are not tied to a known enhancement bonus, the cost of the magical ability can be assumed to be the cost difference between the total item cost and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus. In this case, you may only start with the named item, and upgrade it with additional magical enchantments. You may not start with a lesser item or different item and add the named ability."
But for named armors without an specific enhancement cost, how do you determine what the enhancement bonus is for those abilities? Is Hellknight plate the equivalent of a +1 enhancement bonus or a +2?
I hope you're not suggesting that the Guide include a comprehensive list of named items that can be upgrades and how much it would cost to add enhancements.
Personally I think that the DM (in this case the campaign administration) should look at each item and decide first IF it should be allowed, and then how much it should cost rather than a quick blanket statement without looking at all of the items in question.-James
How about:
But for named armors without an specific enhancement cost, how do you determine what the enhancement bonus is for those abilities? Is Hellknight plate the equivalent of a +1 enhancement bonus or a +2?Named non-magical items (ie. Elven Chain, Hellknight Armor) may be enchanted and upgraded as any other non-magical armor. Specific material cost will be noted in the item's description.
Named magical items may be upgraded by paying the cost difference between the upgraded price and the named price. In cases where an item has a numerical bonus (ie. +1, +2, etc) and magical abilities that are not tied to a known enhancement bonus, the cost of the magical ability can be assumed to be the cost difference between the total item cost and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus. In this case, you may only start with the named item, and upgrade it with additional magical enchantments. You may not start with a lesser item or different item and add the named ability."
Hellknight armor is non-magical. It's covered by "may be enchanted and upgraded as any other non-magical armor".
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Hellknight armor is non-magical. It's covered by "may be enchanted and upgraded as any other non-magical armor".I hope you're not suggesting that the Guide include a comprehensive list of named items that can be upgrades and how much it would cost to add enhancements.
Personally I think that the DM (in this case the campaign administration) should look at each item and decide first IF it should be allowed, and then how much it should cost rather than a quick blanket statement without looking at all of the items in question.-James
How about:
But for named armors without an specific enhancement cost, how do you determine what the enhancement bonus is for those abilities? Is Hellknight plate the equivalent of a +1 enhancement bonus or a +2?Named non-magical items (ie. Elven Chain, Hellknight Armor) may be enchanted and upgraded as any other non-magical armor. Specific material cost will be noted in the item's description.
Named magical items may be upgraded by paying the cost difference between the upgraded price and the named price. In cases where an item has a numerical bonus (ie. +1, +2, etc) and magical abilities that are not tied to a known enhancement bonus, the cost of the magical ability can be assumed to be the cost difference between the total item cost and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus. In this case, you may only start with the named item, and upgrade it with additional magical enchantments. You may not start with a lesser item or different item and add the named ability."
Perhaps that was a bad example. How about a Breastplate of command. It has a +2 enhancement bonus but is definitely not a straight up +2 armor. For the purpose of being within the +10 limit of armor bonus, how would you rate the breastplate of command? a +3 armor? +4?
Perhaps that was a bad example. How about a Breastplate of command. It has a +2 enhancement bonus but is definitely not a straight up +2 armor. For the purpose of being within the +10 limit of armor bonus, how would you rate the breastplate of command? a +3 armor? +4?
Breastplate of Command
Aura strong enchantment; CL 15th
Slot armor; Price 25,400 gp; Weight 30 lbs.
Description
This +2 breastplate bestows a commanding aura upon its wearer. The wearer gains a +2 competence bonus on all Charisma checks, including Charisma-based skill checks. The wearer also gains a +2 competence bonus to his Leadership score. Friendly troops within 360 feet of the user become braver than normal, gaining a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws against fear. Since the effect arises in great part from the distinctiveness of the armor, it does not function if the wearer hides or conceals herself in any way.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, mass charm monster; Cost 12,875 gp
Under my "proposed wording", which is just an idle suggestion of how things could be written, the abilities of the breastplate of command are a fixed cost equaling the difference between the price of the named item (Breastplate of Command - 25400gp) and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus (+2 Breastplate - 4350gp) (Difference = 21050gp). So the cost to increase it to +3 would simply be the cost to increase any other armor from +2 to +3 (5000gp).
Yes, this way to handle it assumes that every Named item has abilities that are not encompassed by an enhancement bonus. But I believe it is a somewhat fair assumption, give the fact that the abilities don't lie on any enhancement bonus chart.
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Under my "proposed wording", which is just an idle suggestion of how things could be written, the abilities of the breastplate of command are a fixed cost equaling the difference between the price of the named item (Breastplate of Command - 25400gp) and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus (+2 Breastplate - 4350gp) (Difference = 21050gp). So the cost to increase it to +3 would simply be the cost to increase any other armor from +2 to +3 (5000gp).Yes, this way to handle it assumes that every Named item has abilities that are not encompassed by an enhancement bonus. But I believe it is a somewhat fair assumption, give the fact that the abilities don't lie on any enhancement bonus chart.
This explanation was way clearer to me than your original proposed wording :P
I like this idea a lot and think it has merit.
Perhaps that was a bad example. How about a Breastplate of command. It has a +2 enhancement bonus but is definitely not a straight up +2 armor. For the purpose of being within the +10 limit of armor bonus, how would you rate the breastplate of command? a +3 armor? +4?
Breastplate of Command
Aura strong enchantment; CL 15th
Slot armor; Price 25,400 gp; Weight 30 lbs.
Description
This +2 breastplate bestows a commanding aura upon its wearer. The wearer gains a +2 competence bonus on all Charisma checks, including Charisma-based skill checks. The wearer also gains a +2 competence bonus to his Leadership score. Friendly troops within 360 feet of the user become braver than normal, gaining a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws against fear. Since the effect arises in great part from the distinctiveness of the armor, it does not function if the wearer hides or conceals herself in any way.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, mass charm monster; Cost 12,875 gp
Under my "proposed wording", which is just an idle suggestion of how things could be written, the abilities of the breastplate of command are a fixed cost equaling the difference between the price of the named item (Breastplate of Command - 25400gp) and the cost of a similar item with only an enhancement bonus (+2 Breastplate - 4350gp) (Difference = 21050gp). So the cost to increase it to +3 would simply be the cost to increase any other armor from +2 to +3 (5000gp).
Yes, this way to handle it assumes that every Named item has abilities that are not encompassed by an enhancement bonus. But I believe it is a somewhat fair assumption, give the fact that the abilities don't lie on any enhancement bonus chart.
Thinking about how one might price out the abilities of the armor, from the guidelines in the Core Rules.
+2 Competence Bonus on all Charisma based checks = 400 x #of checks. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Use Magic Device and all Perform Checks (9 categories) = 15 * 400 = 6000gp
+2 Competence Bonus on Leadership Score = (Not listed, but I'm thinking it falls under the Bonus Squared x 1000 guideline) = 4000gp
+2 Resistance Bonus on Saves vs Fear to friendly troops within 360' = (A hard one to pin down) A Save Bonus to oneself should be Bonus Squared x 2000 = 8000. But this grants it to everyone around you for Long Range. But let's go with 8K for now.
Now, we've packaging this up into one item, so we use the highest cost first: 8000gp for the Resistance Bonus, and each additional ability is 1.5x the normal cost.
8000 (Res Bonus) + 9000 (Charisma based bonus) + 6000 (Leadership) = 23K
We're not that far off from the cost difference of 21050.
So I don't think it's that far fetched to think of Breastplate of Command as a +2 Breastplate that someone has added additional non-enhancement enchantments to to add the additional abilities.
Raising that Breastplate to +3 would still cost 5000gp.
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This thread has moved slowly towards a general Pathfinder rules thread and away from the realm of PFS.
As a side note. I like the flat cost for named armor idea as it makes it easy for GM's to calculate upgrade costs for their players.
Since I said the same thing in the opening Post, it just went full circle..;)
This thread has moved slowly towards a general Pathfinder rules thread and away from the realm of PFS.
As a side note. I like the flat cost for named armor idea as it makes it easy for GM's to calculate upgrade costs for their players.
Well, we still need actual rules text, either Campaign Rules, or PFRPG rules. Without either, all this is just suggestions.
2 Competence Bonus on all Charisma based checks = 400 x #of checks. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle...Except the circlet of persuasion provides a +3 competence bonus to all Charisma related checks for 4,500 gold. So even though it's shifting a slot, I think 6,000 is too high.
So if we price +3 for all checks at 4500, then using the bonus squared rule, the cost for the ability is Bonus Squared x 500; This means that a +2 to all CHA checks would cost 2000. Multiplying by 1.5 (multiple abilities in the same item) we get a cost of 3000gp. Which takes my calculated total from 23K down to 20K. Still pretty close to the 21050gp that I came up with using my "method".
Oops.
It's lower still. It's 3000 instead of 9000. So we're down to 17K, leaving 4050 unaccounted for.
I'm still thinking I undercosted that Aura. 360' Bonus to saves vs. fear. Pretty large.
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This.No you can't. Or rather you can only upgrade to an item you can find in the Allowed Resources list. None of those tomes has a price structure for upgraded named items. If you can't find it in a book, or a chronicle, you can't buy it, nor can up upgrade something to it.
Your only option is to sell the item completely at half price to fund the purchase of an allowable item.
The bolded part is what now has me convinced.
It's a shame, though. I have a character who would (eventually) be very interested in getting Elven Chain and then enchanting it.
Elven chain is not a problem. It's just armor made from a different material so pricing enchantments is not an issue. Celestial armor and other named MAGICAL armors are the problem it's got a mixed enchantment with effective enhancment bonuses, magical lightness, and a magic power thrown in. Since the price of further enchanting an armor is based on the price of scaling enchantments, there's no hard and fast rule on the breakdown of the celestial armor.
In fact, I suspect that each named armor has a unique price structure so there really can't be a uniform rule for upgrading named armor, so that puts it pretty much out of PFS territory.
I think Fozzy's idea is pretty solid. Most of the magical armors state their armor enhancement already. The difference between the named armor and the basic enhanced armor of that level is treated as a flat upgrade, like Furious or Transformative. This gives you your ability to upgrade named armors.
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I think Fozzy's idea is pretty solid. Most of the magical armors state their armor enhancement already. The difference between the named armor and the basic enhanced armor of that level is treated as a flat upgrade, like Furious or Transformative. This gives you your ability to upgrade named armors.
I think it's a good guideline, and something I would use in a home campaign.
For PFS it would either need to go through the campaign orgs (which is probably not a good way to handle it at this time) or it should be posted in the Rules area for the designers to play with. If it can get into the core FAQ, then it would automatically filter into PFS.
For now, we cannot make that assumption about flat costs, so we cannot use it for Society play.
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Neil,
So, if we GMs see a Hellknight PC who has enhanced his Hellknight armor to +1 AC, we should politely tell him that he's got an irregularity on his character sheet and ask him to make his armor non-magical, refunding the 2000 gp?
No need. IMO, Hellknight armor is a just a type of armor no different than MW Full-Plate or MW Chainmail, except that HellKnights gain additional effects. For anyone else, it just functions as MW Full Plate but looks distinctive. It can be crafted of a special material or enchanted like any other standard armor type.
I see this as no different than a Dervish Dancer's Scimitar. In their hands they get special effects (Dex for dmg), but in someone else's hand, it's just a scimitar.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, Bob, if a 5th-level fighter buys masterwork full-plate, can he just assume it's Hellknight armor when he takes a few levels as a Hellknight?
I'd think not. I'm not sure what techniques go into Hellknight armor, but I think it has to do something better than simple masterwork armor does.
(I haven't checked -- does a Dervish Dancer get her advantages no matter what masterwork scimitar she uses, or does she need a special weapon?)
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So, Bob, if a 5th-level fighter buys masterwork full-plate, can he just assume it's Hellknight armor when he takes a few levels as a Hellknight?
I'd think not. I'm not sure what techniques go into Hellknight armor, but I think it has to do something better than simple masterwork armor does.
(I haven't checked -- does a Dervish Dancer get her advantages no matter what masterwork scimitar she uses, or does she need a special weapon?)
Not gonna make any calls myself, but here is the relevant information:
Hellknight Plate: These distinctive suits of armor are a
special type of masterwork full plate that, when worn by
a character with levels in the Hellknight prestige class,
grants additional effects.
Hellknight plate 2,000 gp +9 +1 –5 35% 20 ft. 2 15 ft. 2 50 lbs.
Hellknight Armor (Ex): At 2nd level, a Hellknight earns
the right to wear Hellknight armor (see page 290). While
wearing this armor, the Hellknight reduces the armor
check penalty by 1, increases the maximum Dexterity bonus
allowed by 1, and moves at full speed. At 5th level, these
adjustments increase to 2. At 8th level, these adjustments
increase to 3.
Looking over the Dervish Dancer archetype for the Bard, it is hard to really compare the two. The Dervish Dancer can do his thing with any weapon, not just the scimitar, but each round's use costs him a round of his Bardic Performance, which is always going to be more limited in scope than any flat, permanent bonus.
The Hellknight thing is more on a par with the Fighter Armor Training ability, except limited to a higher cost than usual basic armor. And that cost is only 350 gp, since the stuff is listed as being masterwork. Other than the cost (1,650) and the "name", it appears, in the table, to be identical to masterwork full plate.
And how much of the cost is for the fancy scrollwork?
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2 Competence Bonus on all Charisma based checks = 400 x #of checks. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle...Except the circlet of persuasion provides a +3 competence bonus to all Charisma related checks for 4,500 gold. So even though it's shifting a slot, I think 6,000 is too high.
Multiply x2 for not being tied to the head slot, and it'd be 9k.
Multiply x2 for not being tied to the head slot, and it'd be 9k.2 Competence Bonus on all Charisma based checks = 400 x #of checks. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle...Except the circlet of persuasion provides a +3 competence bonus to all Charisma related checks for 4,500 gold. So even though it's shifting a slot, I think 6,000 is too high.
There is no price increase for shifting from one body slot (head) to another body slot (armor).
3.5 had a 1.5x cost multiplier for "Uncustomary Space Limitation" and Pathfinder and 3.5 both have a 2x multiplier for "No Space Limitation", but "Armor" is listed as one of the 15 body slots:
Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
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+1
hellknight armor is just a regular form of mundane armor.
you could eventually buy dragonhide full plate armor for a druid, one you have enough Fame for access. but its still just a nonmagical masterwork armor. its legal to upgrade it to magical normally. just like its legal for any character to upgrade hellknight armor. worn by an actual hellknight with levels in the prestige class, it functions better. but that's a prestige class ability thing, if they took it off and gave it to someone else it would still function as statted for regular hellknight armor.
hellknight armor isn't a good example of "named armor", those are the armors that appear in the armor section of the magic items chapter. like "caster's sheild", which is effectively a +1 shield.
its understandable that a character might want a +2 shield. they could have a cleric cast Magic Vestment on it for the adventure, but they may be interested in getting it permanently enchanted to a +2 version of the caster's shield,
or a Sihedron medallion. which gives a +1 to saves like a cloak of resistance +1, as well as its other abilities. someone might want a +2 or +3 amulet, and it would be possible in a crafting world or home game, but in pfs play its not allowed currently.
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So, Bob, if a 5th-level fighter buys masterwork full-plate, can he just assume it's Hellknight armor when he takes a few levels as a Hellknight?
No. I was referring to the fact that mechanically, there is no difference between MW Full Plate and Hellknight armor. But they remain two separate items. If you want to gain the special benefits derived from the Hellknight prestige class, you need to obtain the actual Hellknight armor.
And if you are not a HellKnight (PrC) and wear Hellkight armor, it just functions as MW Full Plate, albeit with a distinctive appearance.
You could have problems dealing with Hellknights (seeing you as not worthy of the armor) or the GM might give you a circumstance bonus if you were trying to impersonate one, but that is not supported by the official rules.
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Say my character has Smoked goggles in PFS, but rarely wants to take them off, can I reduce the -4 perception or 20% miss chance by finding someone to make them masterwork?
If I could, how much would that cost?
x 5?
x 10?
It's probably not legal for PFS play, but general gear is buyable without the need for it to be on a chronicle sheet, so perhaps we could have some general guidelines?
Thanks. :)