Advanced Firearms and Rapid Reload

[Blackvial]

Does Rapid Reload change the reload speed of Advanced Firearms to a free action? The reason I ask this is because it needs to be asked and to settle and argument with a rules lawyer. If this has already been answered feel free to point me in the right direction or delete this thread.

[Mergy]

It's a move action to reload an advanced Firearm, and Rapid Reload reduces a move action to a free action. So yes.

[Diego Rossi]

Maybe not, Mergy.

UC wrote:

Rapid Reload (Combat)

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or onehanded firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).
Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.

The text of the feat don't care if the firearm is advanced or not. It only care for the size of the weapon.

Note how the Lighting reload ability work:

UC wrote:

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.[/b]

Even with Rapid reload, alchemical cartridges and a specific class ability it is possible to reload only one shot each round as a free action.

The text about loading advanced firearms don't change those basic rules.

[Mergy]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Maybe not, Mergy.

UC wrote:

Rapid Reload (Combat)

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or onehanded firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).
Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.

The text of the feat don't care if the firearm is advanced or not. It only care for the size of the weapon.

Note how the Lighting reload ability work:

UC wrote:

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.[/b]

Even with Rapid reload, alchemical cartridges and a specific class ability it is possible to reload only one shot each round as a free action.

You're right. There I go assuming Paizo made their rules logical.

[Diego Rossi]

Mergy wrote:

You're right. There I go assuming Paizo made their rules

The logic is that you are already loading 6 shots, so probably they felt that it would be too powerful, seeing all the other bonuses advanced firearms have.

Or maybe it will be errated in the future.

[Mergy]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Mergy wrote:

You're right. There I go assuming Paizo made their rules

The logic is that you are already loading 6 shots, so probably they felt that it would be too powerful, seeing all the other bonuses advanced firearms have.

Or maybe it will be errated in the future.

Well, I don't think a character should actually be penalized for using a more advanced weapon. Think of it this way:

A pistol with rapid reload and an alchemical round is a free action to reload.

A revolver, which can use only metal cartridges, and is not usable with rapid reload, is always going to be a move action.

What this means is that while a powder and shot pistol can be used in the above way as many times as the PC has attacks, a revolver can be shot only as many times as it has bullets left in its chamber, and then it's a move action to reload. (So no full attack that round) Rapid Reload has effectively made a powder and shot pistol more versatile than the revolver that replaces it.

[Diego Rossi]

Mergy wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Mergy wrote:

You're right. There I go assuming Paizo made their rules

The logic is that you are already loading 6 shots, so probably they felt that it would be too powerful, seeing all the other bonuses advanced firearms have.

Or maybe it will be errated in the future.

Well, I don't think a character should actually be penalized for using a more advanced weapon. Think of it this way:

A pistol with rapid reload and an alchemical round is a free action to reload.

A revolver, which can use only metal cartridges, and is not usable with rapid reload, is always going to be a move action.

What this means is that while a powder and shot pistol can be used in the above way as many times as the PC has attacks, a revolver can be shot only as many times as it has bullets left in its chamber, and then it's a move action to reload. (So no full attack that round) Rapid Reload has effectively made a powder and shot pistol more versatile than the revolver that replaces it.

Wrong, read the quote above.

You can reload a single barrel of a weapon once each turn. So you "recover" 1 extra shot every turn.

With Lightning Reload and Rapid reload you will be capable to reload 2 barrels of a weapon with a total of 1 move and 1 free action. Then fire both barrels as a single attack.

With a revolver you will use a move action to reload, fire once and then fire another 5 shots the next turn.

2 double attacks in 2 turns against 6.

[Mergy]

I was not talking about using Lightning Reload. A pistol user can get three shots off per round by level 6 without using it.

Rapid Reload: Reduces the pistol reload to a move action.

Alchemical Round: Reduces reload time one step (move to free) and increases chance of misfire by 1. That's a fair trade to be able to use Rapid Shot every turn.

Lightning Reload is it's own little thing that I would only use if I didn't (for some reason) take a single rank of Craft (Alchemy) to be able to make paper cartridges.

With Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges, (both of which do not work with a revolver) a powder and shot pistol can technically fire more times in a round (that is, unlimited up to the attacker's maximum shots per round) than a revolver. (6 shots, unless you've already fired without reloading)

[Lefteris]

Mergy wrote:

With Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges, (both of which do not work with a revolver) a powder and shot pistol can technically fire more times in a round (that is, unlimited up to the attacker's maximum shots per round) than a revolver. (6 shots, unless you've already fired without reloading)

Ok I am confused. This makes Lightning Reload and advanced firearms for that mater obsolete. Is it possible instead of

Quote:

Alchemical cartridges

make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a
firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard
action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move
action becomes a free action

they meant that you can load one barrel each round?

[Talonhawke]

Lighting reload lets you do it for No AoO.

Metal cartridges are Alchemical Cartrideges and thus use those rules i would assume.

[Roaming Shadow]

Here's the thing, Advanced Firearms sorta break away from how most firearms reload, in that all metal cartridge weapons, regardless of size, take a move action to reload. I don't know why Rapid Reload specifies the action taken as it does, as saying "reduces reload time one step" would be so much easier and more to the point, but according to you Diego, Rapid Reload increases the reload time of advanced firearms. That makes absoulutely no sense, and even you should know that is not the intent of the feat. If you want to be a strict rules lawyer than by technicality that's what it says, but since when has doing something rapidly caused you to go slower? The intent of the feat is to decrease the amount of time taken to reload. I think everyone who plays the rules as intended, as much as they are rules as written, will rule it that way.

Given the level of arguements regarding the interaction of the feat and advanced firearms, I doubt this issue will be settled until Paizo says something officially.

[Talonhawke]

This plus The double barreled rules make me wonder if people are reading them right why you would upgrade from double barreled pistols to a revolver. I mean the way i understand it you can get 4 attacks a round witha revolver and then reload as a move action or get 8 attacks with a double pistol.

[Diego Rossi]

Talonhawke wrote:

This plus The double barreled rules make me wonder if people are reading them right why you would upgrade from double barreled pistols to a revolver. I mean the way i understand it you can get 4 attacks a round witha revolver and then reload as a move action or get 8 attacks with a double pistol.

Advanced firearms get the advantage of using touch AC to a way greater range.

UC wrote:

Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.

I suppose that the developer was thinking about this when he made the revolvers slower to reload:

PRD wrote:

Free Actions

Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.

Probably he felt that firing and reloading a double barrelled firearms 5 times (for a total of 10 shots and 10 reloads) while using rapid shot (12 reloads if hasted or with a speed weapon) was over the limit of free actions that should be possible to perform. or maybe he didn't even considered the possibility to fire bot barrels at once as some other guy was developing the weapons stats.

It is the kind of rule that need to be cleared up to make very clear what rate of fire you can maintain with a double barrelled pistol and with a revolver.

[Solkanis]

Blackvial wrote:

Does Rapid Reload change the reload speed of Advanced Firearms to a free action? The reason I ask this is because it needs to be asked and to settle and argument with a rules lawyer. If this has already been answered feel free to point me in the right direction or delete this thread.

Here is why rapid reload doesn't change how fast you can reload advanced firearms.....From Page 136 from Ultimate Combat

"Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamberloaded.
It is a move action to load a one-handed or twohanded
advanced firearm to its full capacity."

Note the words to its Full Capacity.....
IE you emptied your revolver during the last round and now to fully reload it to 6 more shots it takes a move action. Not a move action per bullet.

[Shinigaze]

Mergy wrote:

I was not talking about using Lightning Reload. A pistol user can get three shots off per round by level 6 without using it.

Rapid Reload: Reduces the pistol reload to a move action.

Alchemical Round: Reduces reload time one step (move to free) and increases chance of misfire by 1. That's a fair trade to be able to use Rapid Shot every turn.

Lightning Reload is it's own little thing that I would only use if I didn't (for some reason) take a single rank of Craft (Alchemy) to be able to make paper cartridges.

With Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges, (both of which do not work with a revolver) a powder and shot pistol can technically fire more times in a round (that is, unlimited up to the attacker's maximum shots per round) than a revolver. (6 shots, unless you've already fired without reloading)

Except that what Diego is trying to say, is that even with rapid reload and paper cartridges you can only reload ONE barrel as a free action. This does not mean one at a time until you are satisfied because they are free actions, but that you can reload one barrel once that turn at the cost of no action. Therefore you would get at most two attacks a round with a pistol and not the unlimited up to the attacker's maximum BAB like you think.

[Solkanis]

Shinigaze wrote:

Mergy wrote:

I was not talking about using Lightning Reload. A pistol user can get three shots off per round by level 6 without using it.

Rapid Reload: Reduces the pistol reload to a move action.

Alchemical Round: Reduces reload time one step (move to free) and increases chance of misfire by 1. That's a fair trade to be able to use Rapid Shot every turn.

Lightning Reload is it's own little thing that I would only use if I didn't (for some reason) take a single rank of Craft (Alchemy) to be able to make paper cartridges.

With Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges, (both of which do not work with a revolver) a powder and shot pistol can technically fire more times in a round (that is, unlimited up to the attacker's maximum shots per round) than a revolver. (6 shots, unless you've already fired without reloading)

Except that what Diego is trying to say, is that even with rapid reload and paper cartridges you can only reload ONE barrel as a free action. This does not mean one at a time until you are satisfied because they are free actions, but that you can reload one barrel once that turn at the cost of no action. Therefore you would get at most two attacks a round with a pistol and not the unlimited up to the attacker's maximum BAB like you think.

That is true for early firearms....however Advanced firearms are different and that is what the original question asked about.

Advanced Firearms....IE Revolvers take a move action to reload to full capacity. Full Capacity for a revolver is 6.
So since you have 6 shots before you have to reload a revolver you could get as many attacks as your BAB would allow. So lets say you have 5 attacks you could in essence make 5 attacks using a full round action. and then Next round use your move action to reload the 5 shots you took the previous round and still get a standard action.

I say this because on page 135 of the Ultimate Combat book you will find....
"Capacity: A firearm’s capacity is the number of shots it
can hold at one time. When making a full-attack action,
you may fire a firearm as many times in a round as you
have attacks, up to this limit, unless you can reload the
weapon as a swift or free action while making a fullattack
action. In the case of early firearms, capacity often
indicates the number of barrels a firearm has. In the case
of advanced firearms, it typically indicates the number of
chambers the weapon has."

And also on Page 136 as i previously quoted....
"Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamberloaded.
It is a move action to load a one-handed or twohanded
advanced firearm to its full capacity."

[Shinigaze]

I realize that, I was just commenting on Mergy's idea that the non advanced firearms would be better because you could just reload it as a free action as many times as you wanted, IE if you had 6 iterative attacks taking a 1 capacity pistol and reloading it 5 times to get all six attacks is not possible.

[Mergy]

Shinigaze wrote:

I realize that, I was just commenting on Mergy's idea that the non advanced firearms would be better because you could just reload it as a free action as many times as you wanted, IE if you had 6 iterative attacks taking a 1 capacity pistol and reloading it 5 times to get all six attacks is not possible.

A free action is free. If you can reload a crossbow as a free action, you can take your full attack with it. I don't see why a firearm should be different unless specified.

[Shinigaze]

Mergy wrote:

Shinigaze wrote:

I realize that, I was just commenting on Mergy's idea that the non advanced firearms would be better because you could just reload it as a free action as many times as you wanted, IE if you had 6 iterative attacks taking a 1 capacity pistol and reloading it 5 times to get all six attacks is not possible.

A free action is free. If you can reload a crossbow as a free action, you can take your full attack with it. I don't see why a firearm should be different unless specified.

I understand your intent, but the problem comes from the interpretations of the rules. The idea being that the text "reload one barrel as a free action" is supposed to be restrictive to once per round. Although now that I am writing this I realize that that text is only in the Lightning Reload skill which you have stated you are not using. So I guess if you are not using lightning reload it would work but if you were using it then it would be determined by your interpretation of if "one barrel" is restrictive or descriptive.

[Talonhawke]

The only question that i know of that would stop this is wheather or not cartidges and rapid reload stack. it seems silly i can shoot and reload a crossbow 5 times in 6 seconds but not put 6 bullets in a revolver and fire it 5 times.

[Diego Rossi]

UC wrote:

Alchemical Cartridges:

Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable.

Under ammunitions.

So Mergy is right. In theory a guy with a double barrelled pistol without the assistance of any magic can fire 5 double shots in a round (a total of 10 shots with a -4 to hit) and keep that RoF up indefinitely, while a guy with what, in theory, is stronger ability, Lighting Reload, can't.

With a revolver, you don't get that as the rapid reload feat only increase your speed to a specific point (move action for one handed weapons) and you are already using alchenmical cartridges, so you can't get that bonus.

So it is possible to fire a revolver 5 times in a round, but then you are limited to 1 shot at best one the next round while you reload.

Something is broken here. I feel that it is the capacity to play machinegun with a double barrelled pistol but it is a question of taste.
We need a developer imput. So please hit the FAQ button.

[jeuce]

ok here is how we settle this; create a fast loader for revolvers, loading the fast loader is a full round action, loading into the revolver is a move. so rapid reload would make those go down accordingly.

just go to a shooting range and test it out with a .38, see how fast you can reload with and without it.

[waiph]

Solkanis wrote:

Shinigaze wrote:

Mergy wrote:

I was not talking about using Lightning Reload. A pistol user can get three shots off per round by level 6 without using it.

Rapid Reload: Reduces the pistol reload to a move action.

Alchemical Round: Reduces reload time one step (move to free) and increases chance of misfire by 1. That's a fair trade to be able to use Rapid Shot every turn.

Lightning Reload is it's own little thing that I would only use if I didn't (for some reason) take a single rank of Craft (Alchemy) to be able to make paper cartridges.

With Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges, (both of which do not work with a revolver) a powder and shot pistol can technically fire more times in a round (that is, unlimited up to the attacker's maximum shots per round) than a revolver. (6 shots, unless you've already fired without reloading)

Except that what Diego is trying to say, is that even with rapid reload and paper cartridges you can only reload ONE barrel as a free action. This does not mean one at a time until you are satisfied because they are free actions, but that you can reload one barrel once that turn at the cost of no action. Therefore you would get at most two attacks a round with a pistol and not the unlimited up to the attacker's maximum BAB like you think.

That is true for early firearms....however Advanced firearms are different and that is what the original question asked about.

Advanced Firearms....IE Revolvers take a move action to reload to full capacity. Full Capacity for a revolver is 6.
So since you have 6 shots before you have to reload a revolver you could get as many attacks as your BAB would allow. So lets say you have 5 attacks you could in essence make 5 attacks using a full round action. and then Next round use your move action to reload the 5 shots you took the previous round and still get a standard action.

I say this because on page 135 of the Ultimate Combat book you will find....
"Capacity: A firearm’s capacity is the number of shots it...

Wrong, you fire 5 shots as a full attack, then fire the sixth as a standard, and reload ALL 6 shots as a move. =P

[Maezer]

jeuce wrote:

just go to a shooting range and test it out with a .38, see how fast you can reload with and without it.

Okay we'll race. And I'm no speed shooter. I'll take the revolver. You take the black powder pistol with pre-measured paper cartridges. I am willing to bet I can get more shots off down range and on target than you. Despite rapid reload with paper cartridges being a free action.

Anything that can load as a free action is wholly unrealistic across the board. Whether its the bow, crossbow, musket, or whatever. Having something that as easier to load and doesn't requiring cleaning between shots take longer to load is silly.

I think guns in D&D is silly. (Though I think Paizo did a surprisingly good job of implementing guns into the D&D world, even if I don't really want them in my D&D world.)

In terms of real world time I don't think you can load a clip into an automatic pistol as a free action. Maybe a professional could get it down to something resembling a swift action. But a free is not going to happen.

[waiph]

Think about it in terms of the fantasy setting. These are characters that regularly break reality. Now not all feats are reality breaking, and there are some that you should be able to do without a feat, but that's not the point.

You can also look at movies and see seriously impossible reload-times, free action reloads on pistols, loading them from the floor, and gun-fu (it had a different name in the movie, but that takes it too seriously)

anyway, Even professionals can't do what D&D characters can after a couple levels, for the most part...

That said, it really becomes a question of weather or not the weapon is balanced. Never seen a high level gun-slinger in play, but firing off a full attack of gun-shots seems like it may be un-proportionally better than all other options, and go against how firearms should work.

Free-action re-loading should be swift, imho, or have something that stipulates that it doesn't let you get 10 reloads, cause that's just too wonkey

[jeuce]

Maezer wrote:

I'll take the revolver. You take the black powder pistol with pre-measured paper cartridges.

since the post is about advanced firearms and in particular revolvers, i will discount the post as erroneous.

creating a speed loader piece of equipment should be easy in a world that already has revolvers, shotguns and such.

Maezer wrote:

In terms of real world time I don't think you can load a clip into an automatic pistol as a free action. Maybe a professional could get it down to something resembling a swift action. But a free is not going to happen.

obviously you have never been in the military or having a need to reload in an expeditious manner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp1Kzw4jHns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHiEZdMKsAg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jmaHG8b1UM&feature=related

[Maezer]

Sorry I must not have been clear. But I meant why would I have to use an additional mechanical aid to achieve the same free reload action with a pseudo-modern revolver that can be down with a black powder pistol or a musketeer can do with his musket.

Then I went onto a tangent about how in real life no ranged weapon should be a free action to reload.

jeuce wrote:

obviously you have never been in the military or having a need to reload in an expeditious manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp1Kzw4jHns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHiEZdMKsAg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jmaHG8b1UM&feature=related

I have been in the military, USAF. I qualified with several weapons. Probably not as proficient as most grunts or jar heads, and certainly not any version of special forces. But no one is going to tell you reloading doesn't slow down your rate of fire.

None of those videos took less than a full second to reload. That's 1/6 of the round. The M4 reload time from the first pair of shots (6 second mark) to the second pair (9 second mark) was nearly 3 seconds or half a round.

As a free action to reload, it should be taking you as long to reload and fire, as is to fire repeated.

Meaning if two people faced off in a duel with pistols it wouldn't matter if you picked up a loaded or an unloaded one. I can tell you, I'd take the loaded one every time. Because loading even modern firearms does take some time.

[Roaming Shadow]

What makes things really silly when talking about the reloading speeds of the various firearms is that by strict reading of the rules, you can easily reload a black powder firearm faster than you can a cartridge based firearm. It doesn't make a lot of sense for someone to load a musket faster than what is likely essentially a bolt action rifle.

Rapid Reload should simply be that you reload a weapon one step faster than normal, simple as that. The calling out of specific actions, by strict letter of the rules interpretation, means that one cannot reload an advanced firearm any quicker than normal, but someone with an early firearm (or heck, even a crossbow that has to be freaking cranked back for crying out loud) can reload a heck of a lot faster than the base. Seriously, if someone can take the reload speed from full-round action to a free action, why can't the guy reloading as a move action go any faster? Honestly, if you can reload a heavy crossbow (that requires you to turn a winch to pull the string back) as a free action (with Crossbow Mastery) and get iterative attacks out of it, why can't someone reload a rifle multiple times a turn, which can easily be reloaded in less time than a crossbow, and get itterative attacks out of it? Again, this doesn't make any sense, from both a logical and a mechanics standpoint. It's just another thing that got past editing that really shouldn't have (like the stupid Prone Shooter feat that is 100% useless as it "eliminates" a penalty that doesn't even exist).

[jeuce]

Maezer wrote:

I have been in the military, USAF. I qualified with several weapons.

Chair Farce lol

[Krome]

this is of course EXCEPTIONAL... but then again... I EXPECT payer characters to BE exceptional...

speed shooting a revolver

using a speed loader of course.

personally I can fire about 4-6 shots per "round" (6 seconds) and be accurate. I'm no expert... I'm no gunslinger. I can reload in a magazine in about a round.

But to get REALLY nasty... in a revolver you do not ever reload a barrel. You reload a chamber. Getting rules lawyer strict... you cannot use those feats on advanced firearms (revolvers) because you do not reload barrels. The feats specifically call for barrel reloads from what I see above. So unless you go with what was intended you can not quick reload or lightning reload a revolver. Now that is just getting down and dirty and ugly with being rules lawyer and I would kick a lawyer that claimed that in the nads... but it COULD be argued...

So I think best case here is take Rule As Intended... not Rule As Written... by RAW and getting really nasty you cannot do it at all.

[CliffyD]

I went into the rules on cartridges and couldn't help, but notice that metal cartridges are considered alchemical.

Pg 141 of Ultimate Combat
Metal Cartridge: These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advance firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets.

Now with that being said, is it not applicable to the Revolver to use such rounds, as it is what they use. If metal cartridges are considered to be alchemical that would show that a revolver with rapid reload and alchemical cartridges would be a "free action" to reload.

[Xaratherus]

I am aware this is a thread necro and that there are more recent threads on the topic. However, I don't believe this was ever answered, so I am bumping it in the hopes of getting some clarification - and out of the threads I searched up, this one already had the most existing FAQ bumps.

--Does the reload times stated in the advanced firearm section (a move action to reload to full capacity) already take into account the benefit granted from using (alchemical) metal cartridges? My assumption would be yes, but clarification would be good.

--Is the Rapid Reload feat's action type benefit truly capped as worded (based on weapon type), or is it supposed to reduce the normal action type required by one step? If the former is true, Rapid Reload would be a pointless feat for anyone in a campaign with advanced firearms.

--If the answer to the second question is "the latter", would the reduction provided by Rapid Reload be to a swift action, or to a free action?

[PAZ42]

Thank you Xaratherus. To get to the specific point from Xaratherus' second question (or at least the point I have in mind), does the rapid reload feat reduce the time taken to reload an advanced firearm to a free action? I appreciate all the discussion from everyone on this topic, but can we get an offical ruling please?

[CaderynRDM84]

Please can officials answer this, Need clarification. Is Rapid reload a useless feat for advanced firearms? Seems incredibly stupid. My personal belief is it should be reduced to a swift action.

[Fenalik]

I hoped it were clarified in the last adventure path's issue Rasputin must die!, since there is an article discussing and expanding modern firearms...but no word about rapid reload! Personally as a GM I think it's okay letting fire with an advanced firearm as a free action, but I would like very much an oficial response!

[Xaratherus]

...since PDT is so busy answering questions right now, any chance of an answer on this? :)

[Xaratherus]

Can it be a free action as long as you give up your off-hand attack for the round? :P

[Monkeyrogue]

My GM and I would love some clarification on this.

[Jamie Charlan]

By pure RAW it's hopeless. Rapid Reload reduces specific actions from one type to another, it is the paper cartridges that reduce 'one step'. The advanced firearms, instead using metal cartridges, use a move action. Rapid reload reduces this to a move action, no more, no less.

This is not to say that it need not be fixed or re-adjusted, just what it is as-is.

[PaulH]

Hi

Just to throw my spanner into the mix.

What happens if a Myrmidarch/Gunslinger had a double barrelled musket?

Has Abundant Ammo running (Spell Blending Arcana), using Spell Combat through the rifle. Using Alch Cartridges

With Rapid Reload can he take more than 2 shots/rnd? The Musket has two barrels, but the spell replenishes at start next turn.

Does rapid Reload allow him to reload after the 2nd shot for more shots in a turn?

(Myrmidarch 7/Gunslinger 1 has BAB +6, can spellstrike for extra attack, and extra attack for Haste, so usually 4 attacks/rnd)

Thanks
Paul H

[TheDailyLunatic]

Thread necro!

I'd seriously like to know what kind of reloading options there are for advanced firearms. If players are seriously just supposed to just reload every other round I can vaguely kinda understand given the power of the weaponry. Just, for the love of all that is good and holy, freakin' tell us!

[thejeff]

PaulH wrote:

Hi

Just to throw my spanner into the mix.

What happens if a Myrmidarch/Gunslinger had a double barrelled musket?

Has Abundant Ammo running (Spell Blending Arcana), using Spell Combat through the rifle. Using Alch Cartridges

With Rapid Reload can he take more than 2 shots/rnd? The Musket has two barrels, but the spell replenishes at start next turn.

Does rapid Reload allow him to reload after the 2nd shot for more shots in a turn?

(Myrmidarch 7/Gunslinger 1 has BAB +6, can spellstrike for extra attack, and extra attack for Haste, so usually 4 attacks/rnd)

Unless I'm missing something, he'd need to be Musket Master archetype, level 3, to get Fast Musket. That would get reloading down to a free action. I don't see why that wouldn't be compatible with Spell combat.

Abundant Ammunition refills your shot pouch so you don't run out. It doesn't reload the musket for you.

[Xaratherus]

I'm assuming that PaulH meant Spellstrike, not Spell Combat? Spell Combat requires you to have a hand free and can only be done with a one-handed weapon; the Myrmidarch archetype by RAW doesn't alter that.

[Kalriostraz]

Hold on. Is the answer right in front of us, Paizo is just being a bit obtuse with it? Follow me here quick.

Alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed by 1 step. Metal casings are an advanced form of alchemical cartridges for use in advanced weapons. Thus using the same rules for Alchemical cartridges in a different form. Because advanced firearms can only be reloaded using these special cartridges, Paizo baked their special rules into the guns. Thus, reloading an advanced firearm with a basic cartridge (if it was possible) is actually a Full-round action. Therefore Rapid Reload reduces that to a Move action with one-handed firearms, and it's ammo makes it free, just like the non-advanced pistols.

Is this possible? Or am I grasping at a rather tempting straw from all the time I spent dealing with another company?

[thejeff]

Kalriostraz wrote:

Hold on. Is the answer right in front of us, Paizo is just being a bit obtuse with it? Follow me here quick.

Alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed by 1 step. Metal casings are an advanced form of alchemical cartridges for use in advanced weapons. Thus using the same rules for Alchemical cartridges in a different form. Because advanced firearms can only be reloaded using these special cartridges, Paizo baked their special rules into the guns. Thus, reloading an advanced firearm with a basic cartridge (if it was possible) is actually a Full-round action. Therefore Rapid Reload reduces that to a Move action with one-handed firearms, and it's ammo makes it free, just like the non-advanced pistols.

Is this possible? Or am I grasping at a rather tempting straw from all the time I spent dealing with another company?

I suspect that might be the intent, but it's not RAW. But the math doesn't really work anyway, since somewhere in there you're switching from loading all barrels to loading one barrel.

[TheDailyLunatic]

Kalriostraz wrote:

Hold on. Is the answer right in front of us, Paizo is just being a bit obtuse with it? Follow me here quick.

Alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed by 1 step. Metal casings are an advanced form of alchemical cartridges for use in advanced weapons. Thus using the same rules for Alchemical cartridges in a different form. Because advanced firearms can only be reloaded using these special cartridges, Paizo baked their special rules into the guns. Thus, reloading an advanced firearm with a basic cartridge (if it was possible) is actually a Full-round action. Therefore Rapid Reload reduces that to a Move action with one-handed firearms, and it's ammo makes it free, just like the non-advanced pistols.

Is this possible? Or am I grasping at a rather tempting straw from all the time I spent dealing with another company?

Yeah, you're grasping at straws. Sorry. The rules for metal cartridges are completely different than the ones for early firearms.

Early Firearms:
You reload one barrel of a 2 handed firearm as a full round action or a 1 handed firearm as a standard action. Rapid reload and alchemical cartridges reduce these by 1 step each. The Musket Master archetype allows 2 handed firearms to be reloaded like 1 handed firearms under certain circumstances. Regardless, these things allow you to reload any early firearm as a free action.

Advanced Firearms:
You reload the full capacity of the firearm with metal cartridges with a move action. That's it. Nothing affects reloading whatsoever except the Beneficial Bandolier or the Wiz Level 3 1Round/level Reloading Hands spell (which both apparently just reload 1 bullet per round, though RH might do more). Also becoming a pale stranger (only undead can have nice things). Rapid reload has no effect whatsoever.

Modern Firearms (from Rasputin Must Die!):
Modern firearms work just like advanced firearms, but they can be automatic (which isn't worth going into here) and they also have these rules:

Rasputin Must Die wrote:

Loading Modern Firearms:

Loading Modern Firearms: With the exception of antique weapons, almost all modern firearms are chamber-loaded, in that a plastic or brass cartridge is inserted directly into the chamber either by hand or by an ammunition-feeding mechanism such as a magazine or clip. Otherwise, loading follows the rules for advanced firearms. Other rules for loading a firearm depend on the firearm's overall capacity and replaceable magazine capability.

Internal Magazine Firearms: Some firearms, such as modern shotguns, bolt-actions, lever-actions, and older styles such as revolvers, retain their ammunition internally, either through a permanently attached tube-feed magazine, an internal holding chamber, or a revolving cylinder, along with more archaic designs. Unless otherwise stated, it is a move action to load up to 6 rounds of ammunition into a one-handed or two-handed modern firearm of this nature.

Magazines: Reloading devices such as clips, ammo belts, “stripper clips,” speedloaders, and detachable magazines allow many modern firearms to be reloaded more quickly than their predecessors, with the entire magazine being replaced relatively swiftly. Such firearms require a swift action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to the capacity of the replacement magazine.

That makes it clear, doesn't it? Modern and advanced firearms always always always take a move action to load up to 6 rounds unless it's a swift because you have a something like a "stripper clip," right?

Oh oops:

Rasputin Must Die! wrote:

Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifle:

This bolt-action rifle is the mainstay of Russian military forces. It is similar to the advanced firearms rifle with the following differences. It uses the same 7.62.54mmR ammunition as the machine gun, and is fed from a 5-round internal, nondetachable magazine that is typically loaded with 5-round stripper clips (loading it is a move action). Without stripper clips, you may only reload up to 2 rounds of ammunition as a move action. Ammunition is typically sold in groups of 5 rounds. The rifle has a lug for the attachment of a socket bayonet, and can be equipped with a unique sidemount scope system.

That comes TWO PAGES LATER and strongly contradicts what was originally said about reloading. The reloading rules say that you can reload just about anything up to 6 rounds with a move action and that stripper clips reduce loading to a swift action. The Mosin Nagant rules say that you can only reload 2 rounds with a move action and you can reload 5 rounds with a stripper clip. ARRRGH!?!?!?

As it stands, the only thing RMD provides as far as reloading advanced/modern firearms with swift actions is machine guns.

Basically: you can reload double-barrelled muskets as a free action and mounted machineguns as a swift action, but you can only ever reload a rifle/revolver/shotgun as a move action. Ever. No matter how cool you are or how many feats you take or how much ridiculous magic you have.

PLEASE EVERYONE HIT THAT FAQ BUTTON!

[TheDailyLunatic]

After looking intently at the rules for far too long, I've decided to houserule that the Beneficial Bandolier reloads any advanced or modern firearm up to its full capacity 1/round as a swift action.

Also, adding 2000gp to the cost of a revolver allows it to be reloaded up to its full capacity 1/round as a swift action. This represents modifications for the use of detachable cylinders.

As a side note, the rules for rifles just boggle my damn mind. Pepperbox longarms were extremely rare pieces and, as far as I can tell, none or few of them were chambered for metal cartridges. Worse: the adoption of metal cartridges was swiftly followed by the invention of firearms with internal magazines. I have no clue why we can have pepperbox rifles (which doesn't really seem to have been a "thing" historically) and metal-cartridge revolvers but not lever-action rifles and shotguns.

As a side note to that side note: I find the idea that all scatter weapons fire in a 90-degree cone spread staggeringly stupid. The physics of that make no sense even by fantasy world logic. If any of my players were using them, I'd say they fire in a 5-foot-wide line.

In summary, if it weren't for the fact that one of my players loves the flavor of his Mysterious Stranger even though he justly complains about the rules not making sense, I'd just use Ashiel's Heroes of Alvena gunslinger (we still might if he ever gets around to reading that PDF I sent him). It's 99% less stupid. I usually don't like using 3rd party stuff, but this is one of those cases where Paizo totally dropped the ball.

[Davick]

thejeff wrote:

Kalriostraz wrote:

Hold on. Is the answer right in front of us, Paizo is just being a bit obtuse with it? Follow me here quick.

Alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed by 1 step. Metal casings are an advanced form of alchemical cartridges for use in advanced weapons. Thus using the same rules for Alchemical cartridges in a different form. Because advanced firearms can only be reloaded using these special cartridges, Paizo baked their special rules into the guns. Thus, reloading an advanced firearm with a basic cartridge (if it was possible) is actually a Full-round action. Therefore Rapid Reload reduces that to a Move action with one-handed firearms, and it's ammo makes it free, just like the non-advanced pistols.

Is this possible? Or am I grasping at a rather tempting straw from all the time I spent dealing with another company?

I suspect that might be the intent, but it's not RAW. But the math doesn't really work anyway, since somewhere in there you're switching from loading all barrels to loading one barrel.

Why is that not RAW? If the phrasing of rapid reload supersedes the cartridge, then it would do so for early firearms as well.

[TheDailyLunatic]

Davick wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Kalriostraz wrote:

Hold on. Is the answer right in front of us, Paizo is just being a bit obtuse with it? Follow me here quick.

Alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed by 1 step. Metal casings are an advanced form of alchemical cartridges for use in advanced weapons. Thus using the same rules for Alchemical cartridges in a different form. Because advanced firearms can only be reloaded using these special cartridges, Paizo baked their special rules into the guns. Thus, reloading an advanced firearm with a basic cartridge (if it was possible) is actually a Full-round action. Therefore Rapid Reload reduces that to a Move action with one-handed firearms, and it's ammo makes it free, just like the non-advanced pistols.

Is this possible? Or am I grasping at a rather tempting straw from all the time I spent dealing with another company?

I suspect that might be the intent, but it's not RAW. But the math doesn't really work anyway, since somewhere in there you're switching from loading all barrels to loading one barrel.

Why is that not RAW? If the phrasing of rapid reload supersedes the cartridge, then it would do so for early firearms as well.

PFSRD wrote:

Advanced Firearms

Advanced firearms are more reliable and accurate than early firearms. The ammunition of an advanced firearm takes the form of metal (usually brass) cartridges that are loaded into a chamber rather than shoved down the muzzle.

Rapid Reload only reduces load times from a full-round to a standard for 2h firearms and from a standard to a move for 1h firearms. It has no effect on advanced firearms because they always load to full capacity with a move action. Advanced firearms don't use anything but metal cartridges. That's explicitly stated above.

Basically, early firearms are representations of muzzleloaders and advanced firearms are representations of breech-loaders (that's the definition of chamber loaders). Their ammunitions are not interchangeable because the introduction of chamber-loading technology brought a number of unintended side-effects (chain-explosions and spewing lead shrapnel, for instance) which had to be compensated for with metal cartridges (see here.

[Davick]

TheDailyLunatic wrote:

Davick wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Kalriostraz wrote:

Hold on. Is the answer right in front of us, Paizo is just being a bit obtuse with it? Follow me here quick.

Alchemical cartridges reduce reload speed by 1 step. Metal casings are an advanced form of alchemical cartridges for use in advanced weapons. Thus using the same rules for Alchemical cartridges in a different form. Because advanced firearms can only be reloaded using these special cartridges, Paizo baked their special rules into the guns. Thus, reloading an advanced firearm with a basic cartridge (if it was possible) is actually a Full-round action. Therefore Rapid Reload reduces that to a Move action with one-handed firearms, and it's ammo makes it free, just like the non-advanced pistols.

Is this possible? Or am I grasping at a rather tempting straw from all the time I spent dealing with another company?

I suspect that might be the intent, but it's not RAW. But the math doesn't really work anyway, since somewhere in there you're switching from loading all barrels to loading one barrel.

Why is that not RAW? If the phrasing of rapid reload supersedes the cartridge, then it would do so for early firearms as well.

PFSRD wrote:

Advanced Firearms

Advanced firearms are more reliable and accurate than early firearms. The ammunition of an advanced firearm takes the form of metal (usually brass) cartridges that are loaded into a chamber rather than shoved down the muzzle.

Rapid Reload only reduces load times from a full-round to a standard for 2h firearms and from a standard to a move for 1h firearms. It has no effect on advanced firearms because they always load to full capacity with a move action. Advanced firearms don't use anything but metal cartridges. That's explicitly stated above.

Basically, early firearms are representations of muzzleloaders and advanced firearms are representations of...

How is any of that relevant?

Metal Cartridge wrote:

These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets.

So rapid reload>move+alchemical/metal cartridge=free action. If that doesn't work for advanced firearms then it doesn't work for early ones either. Which means everyone is doing it wrong.

EDIT: I see. You're looking at modern firearms and putting it under advanced. But those are different.

The rules you're looking at are for magazine loading. Advanced isn't there yet, and in fact:

Modern reloading wrote:

Loading Modern Firearms: With the exception of antique weapons, almost all modern firearms are chamber-loaded, in that a plastic or brass cartridge is inserted directly into the chamber either by hand or by an ammunition-feeding mechanism such as a magazine or clip. Otherwise, loading follows the rules for advanced firearms.