Sap Master Indeed


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I just noticed that a high level rogue duel-wielding saps with the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats can do INSANE amounts of nonlethal damage.

At high levels they could have 7 attacks with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and a haste effect with EACH successful attack dealing 1d6+20d6+40 nonlethal damage! That's an average of 794.5 damage in a single round if he's lucky enough to land them all.

Anyways, just wondering if anyone else had noticed.

Man, UC really did up the damage bar on everyone.


You're a bit late to the party, RD. I've seen dozens of posts about Sap Master rogues in the time since UC has come out :P


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
You're a bit late to the party, RD. I've seen dozens of posts about Sap Master rogues in the time since UC has come out :P

Really? Dozens? I haven't seen a single one.


I don't recall any dedicated threads, but I've seen posts in other various threads. I might be able to dig some up.

Too bad there isn't a way I can think of to get it combined with the Knife Master archetype. Making all those dice d8's would be tasty.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
SunsetPsychosis wrote:

I don't recall any dedicated threads, but I've seen posts in other various threads. I might be able to dig some up.

Too bad there isn't a way I can think of to get it combined with the Knife Master archetype. Making all those dice d8's would be tasty.

It is.But how easily could an 11th level rogue get their opponent flat-footed? Feint doesn't trigger sap master, because feinting doesn't leave them flat footed, which sap master requires.


I made such a thread, no offense.
And besides that, you miss the best abuse.

Vivisectionist + Beastmorph
they stack.
you get sneak attack, but later you can pounce, rake, grab and constrict at the same time.

combine this with startling shot, and you'll take one opponent out of the fight per round.

problems being:
flat-footed, non-lethal damage

and if you're totally munchkin:
you'll pounce with guns, as pounce removes the "one melee attack" and only replaces it with full attack action.

startling shot by friend or underling of course, makes flat-footedness (damn that's rare)

Dark Archive

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Matt Stich wrote:
It is.But how easily could an 11th level rogue get their opponent flat-footed? Feint doesn't trigger sap master, because feinting doesn't leave them flat footed, which sap master requires.

Getting your opponents flat-footed while dealing nonlethal damage isn't that difficult.

Quote:

Enforcer (Combat)

You are skilled at causing fear in those you brutalize.

Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.

Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

Quote:

Shatter Defenses (Combat)

Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.

Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

Paizo Employee Developer

Also you can partner with a Flowing Monk. Anyone she hits with an AoO needs to make a ref save or be flat-footed until the end of her next turn. Drop in Greater Trip and yeah... fun times between the two of you.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jadeite wrote:
Matt Stich wrote:
It is.But how easily could an 11th level rogue get their opponent flat-footed? Feint doesn't trigger sap master, because feinting doesn't leave them flat footed, which sap master requires.

Getting your opponents flat-footed while dealing nonlethal damage isn't that difficult.

Quote:

Enforcer (Combat)

You are skilled at causing fear in those you brutalize.

Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.

Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

Quote:

Shatter Defenses (Combat)

Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.

Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

Alright, but it's already a fairly feat intensive build with the TWF chain and sap feats, with a rogue is there room for all of it and still have that same damage potential?


wow, nice combo Jadeite

It's going to be hard on feats, but the result will be amazing. I once calculated damage output above 900 (didn't include chance to miss, lvl 14 only, not optimized), so even if you hit only 50%, 450 damage will kill almost everything you'll ever see.

Only if the ennemy is immune to nonlethal damage, then your damage is quite bad.

anyhow, I only point this out so any GM can houserule this build out.
I hope Paizo doesn't errata any of the abilities, because they are great, only together they are broken.

Dark Archive

Matt Stich wrote:


Alright, but it's already a fairly feat intensive build with the TWF chain and sap feats, with a rogue is there room for all of it and still have that same damage potential?

H: Sap Adept

1: Two-Weapon Fighting
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Enforcer
4: Weapon Focus
5: Sap Master
7: Dazzling Display
8: Shatter Defenses
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

So, at 6th level you could take a rogue talent like Offensive Defense (which might benefit from Sap Master, depending on how you read it).

Dark Archive

The build has some significant weak points. It's pretty useless against undead and constructs and any other creature immune to nonlethal damage (3.5 all over again) and still has the same problems as a normal rogue when it comes to hitting.


offensive defense nice combo, sap master is quite clear that it counts.

also don't forget that merciful daggers counts as "sap".
Dagger rogue will do 1d8 twice.
(altough that I will stick with my vivisectionist build for sapping people)

Dark Archive

Richard Leonhart wrote:

offensive defense nice combo, sap master is quite clear that it counts.

also don't forget that merciful daggers counts as "sap".
Dagger rogue will do 1d8 twice.
(altough that I will stick with my vivisectionist build for sapping people)

A merciful dagger deals slashing or piercing nonlethal damage, not bludgeoning as sap adept and sap master demand.


That was the same problem I saw. Though is there a way to deal a different kind of damage with a weapon than it's intended for? Like bludgeoning someone with a longsword or the like. The Knife Master weapon list is a tad limited. Perhaps attempting to use it as an improvised weapon? There are ways around the improvised weapon penalties.

Dark Archive

Knife Master isn't an option, but Knockout Artist is. You'll need Improved Unarmed Strike, but you'll deal an additional point of damage for each sneak die rolled.


you're right Jadeite, knife is not an option (3.5 had enchantments to change damage type, but that's not worth the 1 damage per lvl)

seems that sap is the best option.

Knockout artist is great. Powerful sneak and that should also work on sap master. However do you really want to check your 10- 12 dice for 1's and 2's to reroll?

Undead and constructs really are this builds weakness, but they can still be attacked by a normal sneak attack, and they have their own weaknesses and normally don't have to be attacked head on. Exception might be intelligent undead like liches, but they are rare, except if you play this build, I imagine.

Dark Archive

Richard Leonhart wrote:

you're right Jadeite, knife is not an option (3.5 had enchantments to change damage type, but that's not worth the 1 damage per lvl)

seems that sap is the best option.

Knockout artist is great. Powerful sneak and that should also work on sap master. However do you really want to check your 10- 12 dice for 1's and 2's to reroll?

Undead and constructs really are this builds weakness, but they can still be attacked by a normal sneak attack, and they have their own weaknesses and normally don't have to be attacked head on. Exception might be intelligent undead like liches, but they are rare, except if you play this build, I imagine.

Never take Powerful Sneak. It's horrible. Deadly Sneak is slightly better but not worth two rogue talents. Powerful Sneak doesn't let you reroll, you just count 1s as 2s which increases the average damage per sneak die by less than 5% while giving the rogue an additional -2 on his already low attack roll.

And since Knockout Artist only works with unarmed strikes, I'd say an Unarmed Strike is better than a Sap if you want to deal as much damage as possible. IUS is also better against undead and constructs, since you can chose without penalty between lethal and nonlethal.


Would a ninja be better than a rogue at this? The ability to add an extra attack with a Ki point and eventual access to the Unarmed Combat Mastery trick would set them up for some serious damage. Add a Monk's Robe to the mix and they're doing the unarmed damage of a monk 1 level higher than them. So at level 10, they'd be able to do 1d10 with their unarmed strikes.


unarmed strike normally provokes attack of opportunity I think, but if you invest in IUS, it is a lot better. This is exeptionally true if you want to rake and constrict.

@SunsetPsychosis, from what I know about the ninja does the combat role of the rogue better, so yes, it should be a better pick. However I still stand by vivisectionist+beastmorph as the best choice for this build.
Also the actual damage of the unarmed strike will likely be overshadowed by sneak attack and such.

For Powerful Sneak, it adds a bit less than 1/2 damage per sneak attack dice in average, not awesome, and the sap master doesn't really need more damage, but I tought it worth mentioning for whoever wants a sap master in the damage olympiade.

Dark Archive

SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Would a ninja be better than a rogue at this? The ability to add an extra attack with a Ki point and eventual access to the Unarmed Combat Mastery trick would set them up for some serious damage. Add a Monk's Robe to the mix and they're doing the unarmed damage of a monk 1 level higher than them. So at level 10, they'd be able to do 1d10 with their unarmed strikes.

Ninja is a good choice, but Unarmed Combat Mastery isn't. At 10th level, the difference between 1d10+10d6+30 and 1d4+10d6+30 isn't that great.

Another reason for Unarmed Strike is this:
Quote:

Medusa's Wrath (Combat)

You can take advantage of your opponent's confusion, delivering multiple blows.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon's Fist, Scorpion Style, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.

You get it rather late, but two extra attacks are quite powerful.

Lack of synergies certainly isn't a problem of Sap Master.

Dark Archive

Richard Leonhart wrote:
For Powerful Sneak, it adds a bit less than 1/2 damage per sneak attack dice in average, not awesome, and the sap master doesn't really need more damage, but I tought it worth mentioning for whoever wants a sap master in the damage olympiade.

No, it doesn't. It adds 1/6 per sneak attack die in average. It also gives you a -2 penalty on attack rolls. There are only two situations in which powerful sneak improves your DPR:

1. Each of your attacks only hits on a 20.
2. Even with Powerful Sneak, all of your attacks hit on a 2.
Even than, the increase is diminiutive (like I said, less than 5% more on average) and certainly not worth a rogue talent.


okay, my estimate was wrong, so here the numbers:
average without rogue talent: 3.5
average with powerful sneak: 3.66666
average with deadly sneak: 4

you got me convinced, 2 talents for 1/2 damage per dice ...

medusas wrath is very good, but how do you get it with a rogue (or alchemist) ?
I mean bab +11, and 2 extra prerequisites?

However with a very narrow build I believe I could crack 1.5k damage average per round with this at lvl 15.
But really what is this all good for?
the highest CR monster on d20pfsrd with maximum rolled hit points has 1075 hp.
unless gods will get stats again, this build may be used to hit a commoner comatose for over 1 month. Your cleric could make a killing healing the poor bugger by asking 10gold for every heal spell, but it could take days healing all that damage of.

Dark Archive

Richard Leonhart wrote:
unless gods will get stats again, this build may be used to hit a commoner comatose for over 1 month. Your cleric could make a killing healing the poor bugger by asking 10gold for every heal spell, but it could take days healing all that damage of.

Most opponents would simply die.

Quote:
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

You still have to hit to deal that damage. Unless you find a way to make unarmed touch attacks, your DPR will be much lower.

One level of sohei monk might be a good dip for such a build, IUS, another bonus Feat and the ability to always act during surprise round.


this thread made me realize that I still have a lot of rules to learn :)


Richard Leonhart wrote:

okay, my estimate was wrong, so here the numbers:

average without rogue talent: 3.5
average with powerful sneak: 3.66666
average with deadly sneak: 4

you got me convinced, 2 talents for 1/2 damage per dice ...

medusas wrath is very good, but how do you get it with a rogue (or alchemist) ?
I mean bab +11, and 2 extra prerequisites?

However with a very narrow build I believe I could crack 1.5k damage average per round with this at lvl 15.
But really what is this all good for?
the highest CR monster on d20pfsrd with maximum rolled hit points has 1075 hp.
unless gods will get stats again, this build may be used to hit a commoner comatose for over 1 month. Your cleric could make a killing healing the poor bugger by asking 10gold for every heal spell, but it could take days healing all that damage of.

I had been joking around with some friends about the Sap Master possibilities. My problem is when you come across an undead/elemental/construct/whatever that's immune to non-lethal, leaving you with two or more very inert feats.

That said, I think the Rogue is better for this anyway due to the Scout archetype, which allows you to get your SA when moving (and the attack "treats them as though they were flat-footed"), setting up the Enforcer/Shatter Defense that much sooner. You can also Thug it up if you prefer to save the feat from Enforcer.


We already have an unarmed-focused rogue in our group, who is doing rather well. I shudder to introduce him to these feats. :)


and so you should

however the scout archetype would make an awesome batman or the ghost, charge and get them to the ground with a single punch.


Richard Leonhart wrote:

and so you should

however the scout archetype would make an awesome batman or the ghost, charge and get them to the ground with a single punch.

OR use blunt arrows.


Cheapy wrote:
Richard Leonhart wrote:

and so you should

however the scout archetype would make an awesome batman or the ghost, charge and get them to the ground with a single punch.

OR use blunt arrows.

Ow! My -4 attack penalty!


Serisan wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Richard Leonhart wrote:

and so you should

however the scout archetype would make an awesome batman or the ghost, charge and get them to the ground with a single punch.

OR use blunt arrows.
Ow! My -4 attack penalty!

Bludgeon feat. Which you need to take anyways if you want to use a non-sap.


does batman use blunt arrows?

why not use the sling, merciful of course.
it's always considered the poor mans composite bow, and you can't sneak attack from far away. Except for high level sniper, a sling is just as good as a composite bow. You don't even have to fix strength.


That could make for an amusing Warslinger-type build for a halfling.


Yeah, this combo is kindof crazy.
Scout Rogue, possibly with Thug, is great for melee, and the Ranged options are crazy as well.


shatter defenses has been mentioned earlier here, it says "Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed ..."

does this mean you must hit them once normally, thereafter they are considered flat-footed, or is it from the beginning?

and yes, I imagine that halfling like the Belkar from order of the stick. Slinging someone in his private parts only to be able to see eye to eye while robbing him.


Shatter Defenses needs one hit to trigger, and for that attack the target isn´t made flat-footed by Shatter Defenses,
but the one hit could be an AoO since the Feat is worded based on ´this round´ not ´your turn´.
Either way, even spending your first attack of a Full Attack it´s awesome: an extra Full Attack -1 of Non-Lethal Sneak Attack if they were already Flanked, 2x Full Attack -1 of Non-Lethal Sneak Attack if they otherwise wouldn´t have qualified for Sneak damage.

That you ´only´ do normal Sneak damage vs. Undead and Constructs is hardly the worst thing to say about 2 Feats.


I like this idea because it brings back memories of dancing on people's kidneys... non-lethally to keep them unconscious in an Oriental adventures game once.


I have an idea a mericful sap.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
doctor_wu wrote:
I have an idea a mericful sap.

Just for the extra d6?


Ravingdork wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
I have an idea a mericful sap.
Just for the extra d6?

d6 +1 and -8300 gold. Don't forget that you'd actually have to waste money enchanting a Sap. :-)


Or brilliant energy saps! Then all of your attacks are against touch AC.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Venomblade wrote:
Or brilliant energy saps! Then all of your attacks are against touch AC.

Like the police batons from Futurama. You have to voice the character like the robot cop. "Iiiindubitably."


We need a name for a rogue like this. Angel of Unconciousness?
Doomsmacker? Slapper of Judgement? The Inevitable Coldcock?

Knocking out the Tarrasque with a sap is super epic.


Sap master ninja with vanishing trick and a merciful revolver sounds like fun

The Exchange

Venomblade wrote:
Or brilliant energy saps! Then all of your attacks are against touch AC.

You mean something like this?


Wasn't there a feat for TWF characters that allowed you to feint with your first attack in a full attack?

Dark Archive

The Shaman wrote:
Wasn't there a feat for TWF characters that allowed you to feint with your first attack in a full attack?

Feint doesn't allow you to use Sap Master against an opponent. He only loses his dexterity bonus to AC, but he does not become flat-footed.


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Offensive Defense with Sap Master would be INSANE with that number of SA dice being rolled...Especially with Dodge bonuses stacking.

It won't contribute to damage, but by my cursory reading you'd be getting +20 AC a round at 20.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Piers Excell-Rehm wrote:

Offensive Defense with Sap Master would be INSANE with that number of SA dice being rolled...Especially with Dodge bonuses stacking.

It won't contribute to damage, but by my cursory reading you'd be getting +20 AC a round at 20.

That's pretty awesome, though you would be hard pressed to keep a foe flatfooted round after round.


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My first impression is that the feats seem to be way over the top and make for an unsubtle power boost for rogues forcing them in a niche, as well as considering the non-lethal damage mechanics a bit awkward already. Not a big fan, probably not feats I would use.

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