Richard Leonhart |
keep foe flatfooted:
leadership, gunslinger, startling shot, he doesn't have to hit or do anything except be lvl 7 and shoot within range (not first range increment).
If you have a gunslinger in your group you may even convince him that this is more powerful that if you two do their own thing.
also:
scout rogue helps, but normally limits to 1 attack per turn.
lvl 4 scout and 14 vivisectionist/beastmorph can pounce and auto-flatfoot an opponent, but I guess a build thats amazing at lvl 18 is nothing new.
Richard Leonhart |
I almost start to think that the UC made sneak attack classes too good.
Offensive Defense is a dodge bonus, a dodge bonus stacks with another dodge bonus and adds to touch AC.
A lvl 20 vivisectionist/beastmorph, or scout/nina or whatever hitting with 3 sneak attacks and sap master gains +60 AC.
Okay lvl 20 is utopian, but with sap master you still gain your full level per sneak attack to touch AC for a full round.
@Jadeite, thanks for the reminder
Ravingdork |
Wouldn't Sap Master work with a Scout rogue's abilities, many of which say "you deal sneak attack damage as though the target were flat-footed?"
:D
EDIT: Also, does a rogue using a sap in conjunction with the bleeding attack talent deal real bleed damage, or nonlethal bleed damage?
Richard Leonhart |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
for the dodge bonus, ah right, it could be argued, but mostly for RAI sake, because RAW seems pretty clear to me. (I may be wrong however)
As mentioned earlier, Scout works well with sap master, and funny enough scout should also be possible for a ninja, as he keeps the abilities needed from the rogue.
And bleed attack deals bleed damage, lethal, but you can still do it if your sneak deals nonlethal damage, that's how I read it at least.
So all in all you can have a Scout ninja, that charges in, does its level in bleed damage, its level in d6 sneak attacks (+3 per lvl I think) and gains its level as a dodge AC.
and a lvl 20 ninja can give a -20 penalty on an ability score with this, but still can't reduce below 1. Gives a whole new meaning to "I'll slap you silly".
baalbamoth |
@shaman
I dont know of a feat that lets you feint before attacking but Skulking Slayer does it at 9th level.
so what about that skulking slayer/scout build?
you charge, opponent is treated as flat footed, you do d'8s for your sap dice, if you get cleave, and supprise follow through, you get to do this to two enemies...
also with the bonuses to greater dirty trick, you can blind for an attack flat footing them for d4 rounds.
so your attack routine could be
rnd 1 charge for insane sap damage
rnd 2 dirty trick and use the fast getaway tallent to line up
rnd 3 charge for insane sap damage
rinse repeat
I havent fully worked it out yet but it seems pretty potent without crossing over to the mega-cheese fromageopocalypse dual sap weilding becomes.
LuniasM |
@ baalbamoth
The feat you're asking about is Two-Weapon Feint, which allows you to give up the first attack of a TWF full attack to feint the enemy.
Note that feinting only denies the enemy's DEX bonus to the NEXT attack, meaning you're giving up one attack to get one sneak attack. IMO, it's only good as a last resort in the event that you cannot manage to get sneak attack some other way.
Wiggz |
I just noticed that a high level rogue duel-wielding saps with the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats can do INSANE amounts of nonlethal damage.
At high levels they could have 7 attacks with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and a haste effect with EACH successful attack dealing 1d6+20d6+40 nonlethal damage! That's an average of 794.5 damage in a single round if he's lucky enough to land them all.
Anyways, just wondering if anyone else had noticed.
Man, UC really did up the damage bar on everyone.
RavingDrok, here you go:
With my particular build at 20th level with NO magical equipment factored in whatsoever, he hit for 28d6+53 points of non-lethal damage - but specialized in making standard attack actions rather than full attack actions except when using Hunter's Surprise.
Avoron |
This thread has been dead for a while now, but I noticed it and just thought I'd post this:
Catfolk Alchemist 16 (Vivisectionist+Ragechemist), Rogue 4 (either Cat Burgler or Bandit, depending on whether you want to attack and move in a surprise round or not bother rolling for Stealth when you're invisible)
Take Cat's Claws Alternate Racial Trait. The Bestiary says that claws (and bites) can be either slashing or bludgeoning, and I see no reason why the latter would not be applicable.
Feats:
Sap Adept
Sap Master
Catfolk Exemplar (sharp claws)
Aspect of the Beast (claws of the beast)
Nimble Striker
Claw Pounce
Extra Rogue Talent
Lunge
Bludgeoner(if you can get your hands on a merciful amulet of mighty fists, then this can be sacrificed for Improved Initiative or Multiattack or something)
Rogue Talents:
Vicious Claws
Bleeding Attack
Underhanded
Positioning Attack
Alchemist Discoveries:
Vestigial Arm
Vestigial Arm
Tentacle
Feral Mutagen
[one swapped out for Bleeding Attack]
Greater Mutagen
Extend Potion
Eternal Potion (Greater invisibility brewed by a Summoner)
So, all together (and using a strength mutagen), in a surprise round the Catfolk can just invisibly whack someone with a claw for 1d6+190 damage and 20 bleed. (1d6 claw,10 Str, 10d8 sneak attack, 20 Sap Adept, 10d8 Sap Master, all sneak maximized from Underhanded) This might just be 1d6+10d8+110, and the bleed might just be 10, depending on your interpretation of Sap Master. But still.
In the first round of combat things get a little more interesting. Our Catfolk charges toward a cluster of people who haven't gone yet and performs a full attack, also using Lunge for a 10ft reach and still no AC penalty. The attacks look like this:
Cat's Claw +27 (1d6+10+20d8+20)
Cat's Claw +27 (1d6+10+20d8+20)
Claw of the Beast +27 (1d4+10+20d8+20)
Claw of the Beast +27 (1d4+10+20d8+20)
Feral Mutagen Claw +27 (1d6+10+20d8+20)
Feral Mutagen Claw +27 (1d6+10+20d8+20)
Feral Mutagen Bite +27 (1d8+10+20d6+20)
Tentacle +22 (1d4+5+20d6+20)
If every attack hits (against a flat-footed AC, of course), the damage is 3d4+24d6+141d8+235, with an average of 961 damage. Let's not forget that these attacks can be distributed one at a time against all foes within 10 ft., and every damaged enemy takes 10 or 20 points of bleed damage.
If our Catfolk gets some magic items, like a merciful frost speed amulet of mighty fists, a belt of giant strength +6, and a manual of gainful exercise +5, then the average damage becomes more like 1100.
Sure, all level 20 characters are going to be very powerful, but I just felt like this was significant, especially because our Catfolk still has the spellcasting abilities of a level 16 alchemist.
Avoron |
So, I found a way to make this build even more insane:
Get two more levels of alchemist, two less levels of rogue. Switch from Ragechemist to Beastmorph. Either drop Positioning Attack, or switch Nimble Striker for Extra Rogue Talent (or drop Bludgeoner, if you have a merciful amulet of mighty fists). Take the Grand Mutagen discovery. When using a mutagen, take the pounce (realized I couldn't use my bite/tentacle in my charge before), fly, and trip abilities.
In a surprise round, you charge. This charging is a standard action, because you can only take a standard action in the surprise round. Pounce lets you make a full attack after a charge. This attack is just like the one before (assuming same items), with one difference: all sneak attack damage is maximized, because of Underhanded. The attacks look something like this:
Cat's Claw +27 (1d6+203)
Cat's Claw +27 (1d6+203)
Cat's Claw +27 (1d6+203)
Claw of the Beast +27 (1d4+203)
Claw of the Beast +27 (1d4+203)
Feral Mutagen Claw +27 (1d6+203)
Feral Mutagen Claw +27 (1d6+203)
Feral Mutagen Bite +27 (1d8+163)
Tentacle +22 (1d4+155)
So average damage if your attacks hit is about 1769 points if my math is right. And don't forget about the bleed, trip, and anything you might have from extracts.
Claxon |
Yeah, Vestigial Arms doesn't let you make extra attacks. This is big topic of debate around here, but from my understanding you can get one natural attack per limb you have (mostly, theres some lack of clarity with gore/bite). Also, claws can only go on hands, not on feet/legs.
So, you can only have one pair of claws that can attack as far as I can tell.
Avoron |
The Vestigial Arm discovery doesn't give any extra attacks, because it's an arm, and you can't normally make natural attacks with an arm (although you can use it for two-weapon fighting). The Aspect of the Beast feat and Feral Mutagen discovery, however, do give you claw attacks. Ordinarily they would be useless because they would be on the same arms as the claws you already have, but you can put them on your other arms instead, giving you a total of four claw attacks (2 normal on your normal arms, 2 Aspect of the Beast on your Vestigial arms). The feral mutagen claws are useless, though, because you don't have arms to put them on.
You also get two rake attacks when you pounce, so that makes up for the loss of feral mutagen claws, leaving your damage the same as in my second post. (Also, one more claw attack for speed weapon quality, which was included in that post as well.)
One natural attack with each limb is the rule for claws. And hooves and talons work like that, except they're for feet. Beyond that, though, things get tricky. As you mentioned, bites and gores use teeth and horns, so I'm pretty sure you're limited to one bite attack, but you can make gore attacks for each horn you have (or at least, I can't find anything prohibiting this). Weird things like tentacles, stingers, and a witch's prehensile hair seem to be counted as their own limbs. And slams seem to ignore this rule, because even things like gelatinous cubes can make slam attacks. Luckily for game integrity, the only thing I can find that can give PCs slam attacks is the Ape Shaman archetype's totem transformation.