Well, let's put the rubber hose to your analogy, Mr. Zero, if I may (I may? Why thank you!)Let's say I have an office, as you have suggested. Perhaps I deal with the public, as does Paizo. I don't have a bathroom, but I figure since I don't, no one will defecate on my carpet, right? Except... They are. And by my potted ficus, and where mothers put their kids to play while they wait for service. Some of these defecators aren't even buying my product, they just want a place to drop a deuce. Now, my regular customers, who are accustomed to a pleasant foyer to wait in, have to pick their way through fragrant piles of dung. Some decide perhaps this isn't such a great place to do business after all
You see where I'm coming from? Good. Just so you don't take this personally, here's a winky smile for you ;)
To extend your analogy: given the nature of the OTD, it's more like they're defecating in the alley out back.
Yes, this might offend a small number of customers who go poking around in the alley out back, but for the most part... nobody notices or cares.
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OK, more 20k post OTD people with 60 aliases and story of their life in profile asking for ignore function.
You know what, guys? Grow a pair. This isn't country club, this isn't a mutual appreciation society, this isn't a therapy group, this is Internet. And Internet has a little of good and wonderful, and a little of hideous and reprehensible. I don't consider Paizo OTD forum to be the cherished garden of my private life, I think I would be rather sad if I did. If you do - fine, enjoy, but don't demand a top-down changes to the entire forum just because you can't handle the bad and ugly side of teh Intardwebz.
I am going to choose to find it ironic that I'm being ignored in the "Need for an ignore function" thread.
And I'm using the word 'ironic' in the Alanis Morrissette (sp)usage and not the actual dictionary defintion.
And I'm well aware that I'm damning myself to be further ignored by invoking (and mispelling) Alanis Morrissette (sp).
I am going to choose to find it ironic that I'm being ignored in the "Need for an ignore function" thread.
And I'm using the word 'ironic' in the Alanis Morrissette (sp)usage and not the actual dictionary defintion.
And I'm well aware that I'm damning myself to be further ignored by invoking (and mispelling) Alanis Morrissette (sp).
Isn't it ironic?
OK, more 20k post OTD people with 60 aliases and story of their life in profile asking for ignore function.
You know what, guys? Grow a pair. This isn't country club, this isn't a mutual appreciation society, this isn't a therapy group, this is Internet. And Internet has a little of good and wonderful, and a little of hideous and reprehensible. I don't consider Paizo OTD forum to be the cherished garden of my private life, I think I would be rather sad if I did. If you do - fine, enjoy, but don't demand a top-down changes to the entire forum just because you can't handle the bad and ugly side of teh Intardwebz.
This is how I feel.
I think it's become an echo chamber down there.
op:
just want to be clear I understand you?
1. you want an ignore button
2. this button would disable posts frorm certain people who you dont like/agree/troll/flame ect..
3.am I correct?
why don't you just ignore them? in real life or not reads the threads that make your blood pressure rise?
I am not internet savy as most people so forgive my ignorance but can you explain why you need the ignore button?
EDIT: IF you are hanging out at the "all gays go to hell thread" you should be prepared for tom foolery and stupid internet laced rants from idiots? am I missing something?
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op:
just want to be clear I understand you?
1. you want an ignore button
2. this button would disable posts frorm certain people who you dont like/agree/troll/flame ect..
3.am I correct?why don't you just ignore them? in real life or not reads the threads that make your blood pressure rise?
I am not internet savy as most people so forgive my ignorance but can you explain why you need the ignore button?
EDIT: IF you are hanging out at the "all gays go to hell thread" you should be prepared for tom foolery and stupid internet laced rants from idiots? am I missing something?
You know Lobolusk, we used to disagree once or twice, but here I am behind you 100%.
It's an interesting observation that you associate OT as Politics. Perhaps some of us would like to see Politics as a separate forum section from OTD so we can shut Politics down in the same fashion that you manage to shut OTD down from your viewing.
Yeah, interesting. Interesting in a way that makes me want to don a Mola Ram outfit, stretch TOZ out by chains and rip his heart out so that Kali will destroy Rick Perry. That kind of interesting.
And my response to that? "Exactly."
Exactly.
Speaking of ignore, I think I shall DEFOCUS this thread now. It's the kind of thread that seems to bring out the worst in some folks, and I've got no need to crane my neck at the carnage.
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Speaking of ignore, I think I shall DEFOCUS this thread now. It's the kind of thread that seems to bring out the worst in some folks, and I've got no need to crane my neck at the carnage.
You mean you'll just stop reading it, or you'll take a black marker to the screen every time it pops up in recent threads, or you'll just take a bottle of tequilla mixed with vodka, pass out, wake up in six days after it's locked and pretend this didn't happen?
Just curious, you know. And I do know a very good brand of bison vodka...
For the record I disagree with Kruelaid. No ignore function is needed.
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Well, let's put the rubber hose to your analogy, Mr. Zero, if I may (I may? Why thank you!)Let's say I have an office, as you have suggested. Perhaps I deal with the public, as does Paizo. I don't have a bathroom, but I figure since I don't, no one will defecate on my carpet, right? Except... They are. And by my potted ficus, and where mothers put their kids to play while they wait for service. Some of these defecators aren't even buying my product, they just want a place to drop a deuce. Now, my regular customers, who are accustomed to a pleasant foyer to wait in, have to pick their way through fragrant piles of dung. Some decide perhaps this isn't such a great place to do business after all
You see where I'm coming from? Good. Just so you don't take this personally, here's a winky smile for you ;)
To extend your analogy: given the nature of the OTD, it's more like they're defecating in the alley out back.
Yes, this might offend a small number of customers who go poking around in the alley out back, but for the most part... nobody notices or cares.
Well, the OTD didn't used to be the alley. It was actually once a pleasant place to go. There are still a few threads there I like to peruse. I know I am not alone.
How about this? Spin off a subforum , call it 'Silliness' or 'Randomness' or something of that nature. Let us migrate the few threads we still enjoy over there, and then the OTD can turn into a midden heap for all I would care. I'd triangle it up in a heartbeat, just like I did with all those asinine rules grar forums. Why, I bet your smurfing problems, alias problems and quite a few of the other problems all the grar-serious folks seem to have their panties in a bunch over would fade away naturally.
And, you know what? I don't want to see what the OTD is going to look like come 2012. It's bad enough every media outlet will be shreiking in my ear about the election without having to see threads like 'Ron Paul - Antichrist?' or 'Obama/Bin Laden- separated at birth?' I come here to game, and hang with my friends. If I wanted to talk politics I'd go over to HuffPo or Cato. If I wanted to talk religion I'd go to church. I want to talk gaming with others, and maybe have a few yukks.
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How about this? Spin off a subforum , call it 'Silliness' or 'Randomness' or something of that nature. Let us migrate the few threads we still enjoy over there, and then the OTD can turn into a midden heap for all I would care. I'd triangle it up in a heartbeat, just like I did with all those asinine rules grar forums. Why, I bet your smurfing problems, alias problems and quite a few of the other problems all the grar-serious folks seem to have their panties in a bunch over would fade away naturally.
I could get behind a move.
Interestingly, the "good" OTD threads, including those that discuss hot-button issues, are typically on-topic, despite the forum they are located in. Ask-James has to be the longest on-topic thread on the forum, unless you count FAWTL as "a discussion about threads that are way too long, examples included".
Maybe they do need a home of their own
And, you know what? I don't want to see what the OTD is going to look like come 2012. It's bad enough every media outlet will be shreiking in my ear about the election without having to see threads like 'Ron...
I agree. So much, in fact, that I won't be opening any of those threads.
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The down-side of an ignore feature I see, is that while someone may get on your nerves in one thread (say, the OTD threads for example), that same person may have something of interest to say in another thread (such as one of the "game related" threads) elsewhere on the boards...
But you would not know this, as you can no longer see that person's posts...
I agree. So much, in fact, that I won't be opening any of those threads.
I fail too many Will Saves. Wisdom is my dump stat.
For the record I disagree with Kruelaid. No ignore function is needed.
Of course the great thing is you would never have to use it. You could ignore ignore. As you haven't postulated what usefulness it may or may not have for others, it seems to me that precisely what you're saying is that you have no need of it.
And I'm glad you posted because your straight forward and honest approach to stating your opinion is refreshing. Several others have also done this, thank you. I'm not being snarky or sarcastic here. I really do appreciate this.
OK, more 20k post OTD people with 60 aliases and story of their life in profile asking for ignore function.
You know what, guys? Grow a pair. This isn't country club, this isn't a mutual appreciation society, this isn't a therapy group, this is Internet. And Internet has a little of good and wonderful, and a little of hideous and reprehensible. I don't consider Paizo OTD forum to be the cherished garden of my private life, I think I would be rather sad if I did. If you do - fine, enjoy, but don't demand a top-down changes to the entire forum just because you can't handle the bad and ugly side of teh Intardwebz.
I think that pretty well everyone can see that I have a pair. It might be that you just can't see past them, Jakub, they've been resting on your head from the time you first strolled onto this thread.
You've made your point (so to speak).
Now what's with the need to linger and demean people, make arbitrary and hypocritical distinctions between ignore and defocus, imply that I am using a "tone" that is going "downhill", and question my manhood--I just don't get it. Because you're certainly not making any valid arguments here, nor bringing up any good points, nor contributing to the discussion. Do not lecturers in Poland have to conduct themselves with some gravity and approach matters with due rigor?
As Patrick has illustrated, you just seem to be defecating in the feedback section of Paizo's store.
...And, you know what? I don't want to see what the OTD is going to look like come 2012. It's bad enough every media outlet will be shreiking in my ear about the election without having to see threads like 'Ron...
*shiver*
As history has shown, perhaps Paizo will do nothing other than post a sticky header warning people to not prance around affronting others from the refuge of their supposed anonymity. Maybe put jack boots on the most impassioned stomper they can find and set him loose. Or appoint the kindest, most laid back folks on staff and torture them by assigning them to sift through flags to earn their pay.
Doing so, they will refuse to give political debate a home, pretending that politics and religion are not part of the lives of the people in their community (yet video games are)... that it is instead some sort of alien anomaly imported into natural gaming life by a few hostile crackpots.
Or they could prove me wrong and use some of the excellent tools and ideas that have been thrown out to help foster a peaceful and healthy community.
Senior Software Developer
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I'm not sure I like the implication that we don't have the courage to implement an ignore feature or something. We think long and hard about the social impacts of pretty much every feature we add to the website, which is one reason it's taking us so long to get private messaging done.
But for discussion's sake—keeping in mind that we have no intention of implementing an ignore function at the moment—how would you want it to work?
Should it leave the poster's name & avatar, but with a disclosure triangle that allows you to show the post? Should it just silently elide the post and provide no indication that the poster was ever active in the thread? What if someone quotes someone you've chosen to ignore? Do we have to parse all quoted material in other people's responses? Do we put disclosure triangles or spoiler buttons around those quoted portions? Will people start posting "*plonk*" messages to indicate that they've added someone to their killfile? Will knowing that you're on someone's killfile change an individual's behavior, for better or worse? What if we just put a disclosure triangle, defaulted to the "open" position next to each post, so you could collapse them yourself if you find it impossible to ignore someone's post? In the "recent ten" box on the front page, in the focus view, in the main messageboards page view, if the most recent post is by someone on your ignore list, do we pretend the thread hasn't been updated? Do we instead have to walk backwards through each thread for each person until we get to a non-ignored post to figure out which thread has been most recently updated? How does presenting wildly varying views of every messageboard page we render affect performance?
These are just the first pass, off the top of my head. Additional internal discussion would I'm sure result in more. Every time we introduce a new feature to our messageboards we have to answer a list of questions like this. To do less would be irresponsible and disrespectful to the tens of thousands of people who post here thousands of times a day.
op:
just want to be clear I understand you?
1. you want an ignore button
2. this button would disable posts frorm certain people who you dont like/agree/troll/flame ect..
3.am I correct?why don't you just ignore them? in real life or not reads the threads that make your blood pressure rise?
I am not internet savy as most people so forgive my ignorance but can you explain why you need the ignore button?
EDIT: IF you are hanging out at the "all gays go to hell thread" you should be prepared for tom foolery and stupid internet laced rants from idiots? am I missing something?
Several times people have suggested I get upset, or frustrated, or that my blood pressure rises.
Dude, I've been online for 17 years. I dealt with my temperment issues years ago by studying martial arts and practicing zen. I very, very rarely get upset by anything on these boards.
I do get tired of the constant deluge of pointless negative remarks.
As I've clearly stated, for ME KRUELAID personally, I just want to be able to filter posts, to cut out some of the troll spam. A great way to do this is to filter out posters who are contributing nothing, who are only trying to get attention or inflate their own egos by mindlessly spamming or ritually confronting others.
Other people who get hot around the collar could certainly use this function to blank out people who are upsetting them. I would also benefit from this, because I may notice fewer flame wars.
MAY, COULD, PERHAPS being the operative words here. I am no more certain that it will work than Paizo is certain it won't.
I am tired of hearing Paizo's non-reason for avoiding implementing things like post filters--I find it's not becoming of people who are quite creative and intelligent--and it seems a huge cop-out in the face of a mounting problem.
Peace.
I'm pretty sure Gorbacz is trolling your inability to ignore someone without a button. This threads getting a bit out of hand though so i'm out.
Sometimes it takes a person on the outside to produce such excellent insights. Thank you.
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I am tired of hearing Paizo's non-reason for avoiding implementing things like post filters--I find it's not becoming of people who are quite creative and intelligent--and it seems a huge cop-out in the face of a mounting problem.
Man, you're passively-aggresively (or even directly, above) insulting the folks who run this boards, and you expect anybody to take you seriously? Really?
...
I'd be fine if I could just collapse everything below the divider for a given poster so that I know they've posted, but I don't have to scroll past it.
As Alexander has keenly observed, Garbacz seems to be trolling us here, and if I collapsed him I wouldn't reply to his lateral ad hominems.
Hey Gary,
Just to be clear, I'm trying my best to state things as they are, or as they have been, but it's hard for me not to add a little flair to things. I'm really trying. We've hashed things out before and I know that you know I hold you and everyone at Paizo in very high regard.
Peace.
Kruelaid it would have to be big enough issue that most of us agree with you. I see these things as nothing more than a minor annoyance, and so do many other posters. Remember this is a custom made site, not phpbb. In order for me/us/othrers to want to push Paizo to write code it would have to be significant. There isn't anyone here that post on a regular basis that I can name that never says anything useful, even if I disagree with them a lot. In short, it really isn't worth the effort. Even when I was on the old WoTC boards, which were a lot less friendly than these, there were were only 1 or 2 people whose post I avoided.
It boils down to this-->Did the "annoying poster" say something worth commenting on? If he did then ignoring him won't take away the validity of the post even if you don't like the way it was said, and if he does not then why reply to it?
Kruelaid it would have to be big enough issue that most of us agree with you. I see these things as nothing more than a minor annoyance, and so do many other posters. Remember this is a custom made site, not phpbb. In order for me/us/othrers to want to push Paizo to write code it would have to be significant. There isn't anyone here that post on a regular basis that I can name that never says anything useful, even if I disagree with them a lot. In short, it really isn't worth the effort. Even when I was on the old WoTC boards, which were a lot less friendly than these, there were were only 1 or 2 people whose post I avoided.
It boils down to this-->Did the "annoying poster" say something worth commenting on? If he did then ignoring him won't take away the validity of the post even if you don't like the way it was said, and if he does not then why reply to it?
Whether or not it would be done depends on whether or not Paizo perceives it as good for the health of the boards, and whether or not, by improving the health of the boards, they can improve their sales by making it a welcoming place to more people.
I don't think kruelaid needs to have an indeterminate proportion behind him. I'm just presenting the argument because I don't think it has been clearly made before.
Having worked quite a bit with web programmers over the last few years, I know for a fact that I am UTTERLY CLUELESS about whether or not implementing this is a major pain in the ass because it depends on where the back end code stands now and all I can see is the html markup--so I have not spoken to this issue. But you make a good point and it's certainly going to be a determiner here. Agreed 100%.
And back to "annoying posters"--I think everyone will have different reasons to filter others out. This is equally about trolls, derps, spammers, morons, and people folks just don't like because they're smarter. I only propose it as a way to filter out the words on the screen that you DON'T like to see so you can respond and have a dialog with the words on the screen that you DO like.
People, as always, will each use it differently. In a way, that's why it is such a great usability feature.
The down-side of an ignore feature I see, is that while someone may get on your nerves in one thread (say, the OTD threads for example), that same person may have something of interest to say in another thread (such as one of the "game related" threads) elsewhere on the boards...
But you would not know this, as you can no longer see that person's posts...
Who is this a downside for, exactly? The person who utilized the ignore function takes that risk willingly.
At the point that one feels it becomes necessary to utilize the function, I'm quite sure that they're NOT interested in anything the person has to say in another thread elsewhere on the board.
It's not a downside for anyone else.
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At the point that one feels it becomes necessary to utilize the function, I'm quite sure that they're NOT interested in anything the person has to say in another thread elsewhere on the board.
I hear what you're saying, I do...
But for me at least, while I may not like someone’s views, opinions, or even find common ground with someone in many of the OTD threads for example, I still find common ground with most of those same people in the other (non OTD) threads; regardless of how I may feel about their views on other topics outside of that part of the forum...
THAT is why for ME, an ignore function would be a downside...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
THAT is why for ME, an ignore function would be a downside...
Suppose it isn't really an 'ignore' feature.
Suppose there was an expand/collapse by the FLAG | POST | REPLY and you could just expand their posts again when you decide your interested in seeing what they say again.
Pointless? Not for me. Maybe for others.
As someone who has ran the server backend for forums/ISP/etc, unless there is some aggressive caching taking place, if an ignore feature is put into place, the rendering code would have to:
1. Look up your ignore list.
2. Parse every single comment in the thread to see if there is a person on your ignore list.
3. Alter the render output accordingly wrt your ignorees.
4. Cache the result for the people with itchy F5 fingers
FOR EVERY SINGLE UNIQUE IGNORE LIST + BLANK IGNORE LIST.
In comparison to:
1. Render the entire thread.
2. Cache the result
3. Pull from the cache unless the thread has been updated, then regenerate the cache from the db data.
The more things you have going on with the rendering of the thread the more chances you have for bottlenecks, errors, and blow-ups.
Can't script client side?
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I look at is a potentially helpful feature - not so much to bar someone from the discussion but to help a few posters stay on track.
Say you are discussing alternate rules, 2 other posters get involved and pose questions, raise more alternate rules variations, etc.
Then poster #4 comes in and says "why are you discussion this rule, that isn't what the game is about?"
Poster #5 comes into the thread talking about how a totally different rule should be handled, calls poster #4 an idiot. Much threadcrapping later the original topic is lost and people are fighting about the debt ceiling, GNS theory (as it doesn't apply to the op), 4e, Star Trek and then the little blue guys pop in to serve as blue internet police (for disliked topics/contentious threads) to help sink it, etc and so on - thread destroyed.
The posters who want to stay in the discussion - those who are not fighting each other - can collapse the filler and flotsam. It would actually make more sense to have it tied to a thread as well as posters. You can zing out a poster who is not staying OT, or individual posts (where you do not want to ignore the poster, just the post) that just take up too much space on the page, without totally ignoring the poster. Ex - full page quotes with a +1 or posts that are not relevant to the reader with regard to the discussion.
Also it can serve as a tool filter out very long multiple page threads where you are looking for ideas from specific posters.
Posters who want to stay on topic can do it easily by filtering out the off-topic posts, signal to noise ratio kept in check.
I think for those coming here for rulings, ideas, alternate rules, technical data and so on it would be a great idea.
Can't script client side?
Like this?
Now I dont know how the backend of Paizo stuff is laid out. I dont know if they use memcached or something else to cache the big db grinders This is all speculation. However server-side you could turn a 30 query db hit into one thats over 50+ by adding something as ignore. Server-side performance would be a deal-breaker for a feature like this.
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THAT is why for ME, an ignore function would be a downside...Suppose it isn't really an 'ignore' feature.
Suppose there was an expand/collapse by the FLAG | POST | REPLY and you could just expand their posts again when you decide your interested in seeing what they say again.
Pointless? Not for me. Maybe for others.
Kruelaid,
So what your saying is collapse it when you first see the persons name? Or it can always be collapsed for a particular person who clicked the "alternate ignore button" on?
Cause honestly if you collapse it when you first see the person to me that is the same as just scrolling past that person posts once you saw him/her.
Sean
Can't script client side?Like this?
Now I dont know how the backend of Paizo stuff is laid out. I dont know if they use memcached or something else to cache the big db grinders This is all speculation. However server-side you could turn a 30 query db hit into one thats over 50+ by adding something as ignore. Server-side performance would be a deal-breaker for a feature like this.
I run greasemonkey on FF and have tried the Paizo ignore script. I got a TOTAL blank screen every time I posted, and I'd have to go back to my paizo bookmark every time and start again.
Speaking as a near illiterate in js and someone nobody should listen to on the topic, it seems to me that a good part of this could be handled by inpage script rather than a browser plugin. And perchance something server side might be able to just remember my filter settings so that my filter works no matter which computer I log on with.
I'm pretty sure Gorbacz is trolling your inability to ignore someone without a button. This threads getting a bit out of hand though so i'm out.Sometimes it takes a person on the outside to produce such excellent insights. Thank you.You mean you didn't get that insight from MY posts?
:(
Sorry about that.
Gorbacz... accidental troll or intentional. Still not sure. From the sound of his butthurt I'd say the former. But what do I know?
I know Gorbacz is usually a good guy. I don't understand why he felt it necessary to demean people who are pro-ignore or paint me as someone who is trying to insult people here. I mean I know I'm not Mr. Nice-n-huggy: there is the nickname, right? But... whatever.
Baiting and counter-baiting. It is done. The thread seems to have made it through the gauntlet and Gary is listening which is all that I wanted.
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So what your saying is collapse it when you first see the persons name? Or it can always be collapsed for a particular person who clicked the "alternate ignore button" on?
Not understanding the question. What I tried suggesting (and possibly failed) in answer to Gary was that there is could be a "hide" option next to FLAG | LIST | REPLY that would collapse all the posts from that poster (tooltip: "hide all posts from this member").
You press it and then you can't see what they wrote. Just everything above the bar. Only the name and date of their posts, not their avatar, because maybe just the avatar makes you apoplectic and its a waste of space without the post itself anyway. And now instead of HIDE | FLAG | LIST | REPLY you would now see SHOW | FLAG | LIST | REPLY for all of his or her collapsed posts.
If you decide you want a look. Press show, and there they all are.
Cause honestly if you collapse it when you first see the person to me that is the same as just scrolling past that person posts once you saw him/her.
Sean
Not when that person has just posted 5 huge mindless posts citing everyone and their pet hamster that just aren't_worth_reading (i'm making a user experience suggestion here--it's not something we NEED to function, just something that gives me a little more control to make it a little easier to have a discussion with someone I am engaged with and could improve my experience on the site). This is all the more important in a world where more and more people visit the boards on devices with limited screen space. iPad. Nod to Apple and Don Norman: the father of Apple's user experience design principles.
In Civil Religious Discussion, for example, it might have been possible to still have a civil religious discussion if one didn't have to scroll past certain persons who are not contributing in a civil, rational, measured, friendly, or constructive way. Notice that I emphatically say "might".
As I said I really don't know. In the ideal world of my imagination it works.
I removed some name calling.
I am going to choose to find it ironic that I'm being ignored in the "Need for an ignore function" thread.
And I'm using the word 'ironic' in the Alanis Morrissette (sp)usage and not the actual dictionary defintion.
And I'm well aware that I'm damning myself to be further ignored by invoking (and mispelling) Alanis Morrissette (sp).
You also misspelled 'definition' and 'misspell', doing so, it seems, with a wee bit of dramatic irony.
Okay class, now let's review.
I removed some name calling.
But Gorbacz really is one of those, Ross.
One of what?
Poles... or was it a bison? :-p
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In closing I'd like to point out that Paizo has never ever given more than a vague prophetic reason for not implementing this.
On May 4, 2008, I said:
There will be no ignore button. That's essentially inviting people to participate in discussions while encouraging them to only listen part of the time. Conversations in forums that do allow "ignore" buttons often become redundant and confusing, because not everyone is working with the same data.
I know you read it, because you replied:
There will be no ignore button.Hallelujah!
Also, there will be no ignore button.
That's beautiful Vic, I love you man. I'm also a libertarian now. And I used to like Obama, too.
And no Gorbacz, I didn't slander you, I was just playing off the deletion notice. I have no idea what was deleted. But I do have a little present for you, buddy.
TADAAAAaaaaaa!
I think we're done here. We have discussed the ignore feature at length before in this thread and resorting to name calling is not an appropriate way to get a feature implemented. Thread closed.