I would say no, they simply can not climb without help and are smart enough to know it. The legs simply do not have enough rang of movement nor do they have any grasping ability.
You could haul one up with a harness and a block and tackle, but outside of magic, he can't climb.
He chose to play a centaur, those are the breaks. Not all races can do all things. Unless you want to give humans lowlight vision as it is unfair other races get to see in the dark.
One of my old gamer buddies used to joke about Centaur Ninjas. I did have a Centaur character once. He was kind of difficult to maneuver in the dungeon.
Horses can't climb per se, but they can ascend and descend stairs.
Nothing in the rules say you can't take actions while dead either. Some things are just assumed you will use common sense. The horse half can not climb, not it has a hard time but it can not. They can do stairs with time and with loads of cation. They are not cats, the legs do not bend the correct way and a hoof is a far cry from a human foot, which even booted allows moment and feel a hooves never can.
They can't climb, humans can't see in the dark and elves do not have round ears. Those are the breaks.
Nothing in the rules say you can't take actions while dead either.
A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character's next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies.
In 3.0, I played a rogue that became a centaur due to a reincarnate spell. The DM was kind enough to let me tumble and climb even though the very thought of either was ridiculous.
I'd differentiate between a natural, steep mountain or cliff side and, say, a tree.
For the mountains, just imagine a chamois or other mountain-dwelling goat climbing up and down the rocks, so I would let it pass.
For the tree - not so much.
Ruyan.
I'd differentiate between a natural, steep mountain or cliff side and, say, a tree.
For the mountains, just imagine a chamois or other mountain-dwelling goat climbing up and down the rocks, so I would let it pass.
For the tree - not so much.
Exactly. Rather than just saying "centaurs can't use the Climb skill", it would be better to say what circumstances do and don't make sense.
"Climb" in the sense of pulling oneself up by the hands on a vertical cliff face or up and down a rope, a centaur can't do. "Climb" in the sense of bouldering or navigating up and down a treacherous, steep rocky hillside? Certainly.
Yep, this is an issue of use common sense, and trust the GM to make a fair ruling. And yes, there should be differences between a natural slope and a ladder.
At best, for something like a rope or ladder, allow a high DC Strength check to pull yourself up by your arms--but those hindquarters are going to be more or less dead weight.
You want to play a weird, not-intended-to-be-a-PC-race as a PC? Accept the reasonable consequences, or don't play the race. You play a drow, people will distrust you if not try to shoot you on sight. You play a centaur--you will have trouble navigating places designed for two-legged humanoids to travel.
Ghettowedge: But, see, "dying" and "dead" are two different conditions. ;)
Yep, this is an issue of use common sense, and trust the GM to make a fair ruling. And yes, there should be differences between a natural slope and a ladder.
I agree, but we all know how common, common sense is. :/
Yep, this is an issue of use common sense, and trust the GM to make a fair ruling. And yes, there should be differences between a natural slope and a ladder.I agree, but we all know how common, common sense is. :/
Just because something is a rarity does not mean we should encourage it to remain that way. :) Sometimes players who try to say, "BUT IT'S NOT IN THE RULES!!!" need to be shown by example why things work the way they do, rather than try to rewrite the rules.
The bio-mechanics/weight distribution just doesn't work out even with intelligence. In theory they can "climb" in the same way that mountain goats climb, but that's more of an acrobatics check than a climb check. Plus even mountain goats cant climb a vertical wall.
Plus even mountain goats cant climb a vertical wall.Oh, Really?
LOL. Alright, well, assuming that's real (which it may be, I'm not a climbing goat expert, believe it or not) than maybe a centaur can climb a wall. Still seems awful awkward to me. Both for the goat and the centaur.
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LOL. Alright, well, assuming that's real (which it may be, I'm not a climbing goat expert, believe it or not) than maybe a centaur can climb a wall. Still seems awful awkward to me. Both for the goat and the centaur.Plus even mountain goats cant climb a vertical wall.Oh, Really?
Even with that picture posted, a centaur is not part mountain goat. I could never see a horse doing that, and by extension a centaur. A bauriaur, on the other hand, perhaps.
I say you made the right call. A hill or a ditch that is not to steep is very doable, a cliff is not.
LOL. Alright, well, assuming that's real (which it may be, I'm not a climbing goat expert, believe it or not) than maybe a centaur can climb a wall. Still seems awful awkward to me. Both for the goat and the centaur.
If years of watching Marty Stauffer's Wild America taught me anything, it's that mountain goats and other such creatures adapted to living in the terrain can in fact climb impossible looking vertical cliffs with incredible ease.
I suspect that horses and centaurs do not possess such superb climbing adaptations.
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Let's not forget that we're talking about a game where characters perform physically impossible acts on a regular basis.
For example, the real-world record long jump is about 30'. A 5th-level rogue with an 18 dex (4+3+5 = 12) can beat that about 10% of the time, or even more often if he does something silly like take Skill Focus (Acrobatics).
For an even more absurd example, let's take a 5th-level bard who has an 18 cha, Skill Focus (Perform), and a masterwork instrument, which are perfectly reasonable things for him to have. 4+3+5+3+2 = 17, right? He'll be able to fairly regularly hit a DC 30, which means that his performances are so incredible that he's going to attract the attention of extraplanar beings.
With those kinds of things in mind, I think that claiming it's simply impossible for a centaur to climb a sheer wall doesn't make any sense. That's applying real-world limitations to an intelligent fantasy creature in a world where impossible things happen on a regular basis, not to mention that a centaur has two extra limbs with grasping hands that a horse doesn't have.
Personally, I'd say it's very difficult, but not impossible; I'd probably give centaurs a -8 penalty or so on climb checks.
As the DM in question for this Centaur player what got this all started was a 400' sheer cliff with a base Climb DC of 25.
I said it was impossible, both due to what I know of horses, and to save time on a task the Centaur was clearly going to fail even if he was allowed to make the many climbing rolls required.
Earlier in the same module I allowed the Centaur to (clumsily) scale a ditch and palisade arrangement of about a dozen feet in height.
IMO its not a matter of not allowing any climbing checks, but of degree. Sure...its subjective but thats why we have game masters. Centaurs aren't apes, nor are they even mountain goats.
Luckily my players created a work around solution with a few minutes thought. The druid transformed into a Huge earth elemental and transported the Centaur and the rest of the party easily and safely up the rockface.
Sounds like a good call where you took some reasonable assumptions into account.
It also forced the party to come up with a clever and cool solution (the elemental) which wouldn't have otherwise happened, and making situations that force players think outside the box is always good.
Nothing in the rules say you can't take actions while dead either.A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character's next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies.In 3.0, I played a rogue that became a centaur due to a reincarnate spell. The DM was kind enough to let me tumble and climb even though the very thought of either was ridiculous.
They dying condition and the dead condition are different.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
Nothing says no actions can be taken while dead.
With those kinds of things in mind, I think that claiming it's simply impossible for a centaur to climb a sheer wall doesn't make any sense. That's applying real-world limitations to an intelligent fantasy creature in a world where impossible things happen on a regular basis, not to mention that a centaur has two extra limbs with grasping hands that a horse doesn't have.
So you allow your humans to have Darkvision if they just 'look HARDER!'? To fly if they just flap their arms hard enough and have the Fly skill (20 ranks baby!)?
Obviously the answer is no. Some things are just considered implausible or inappropriate no matter how you justify it. Different people draw different lines in the sand but generally there is always something that causes them to go "no way is that happening!"
And despite the high end nature of some of the skill rules they try with moderate success to be consistent and not too different from whats possible in the real world. Even your example jumper is only marginally better than an olympic athlete 10% of the time. Thats not exactly leaping mountains.
Exaclty what I thought. You made a good call on the cliff.
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So you allow your humans to have Darkvision if they just 'look HARDER!'? To fly if they just flap their arms hard enough and have the Fly skill (20 ranks baby!)? Obviously the answer is no.
No, and don't put words in my mouth. That's just a reductio ad absurdum argument. Darkvision is not a matter of how well you can see, it's a physical ability. The fly skill does not grant you the ability to fly, it affects how well you can fly.
A centaur is not a horse. It's an intelligent creature that is capable of using logic and tools to help itself, and it has two grasping hands to help. It can climb, just exceptionally poorly.
And despite the high end nature of some of the skill rules they try with moderate success to be consistent and not too different from whats possible in the real world. Even your example jumper is only marginally better than an olympic athlete 10% of the time.
My example is not "marginally better than an olympic athlete," it's "regularly better than the best Olympic athlete ever." Add in Skill Focus and a few more levels and you'd have a jumper who can jump further than the best Olympic athlete ever without even trying, and on a good day they'd be capable of jumps that would literally tear a real human's muscles apart. I think that you're underestimating just how difficult a task with a DC over 30 really is.
Well an Olympic athlete is around level 3, so yeah a level 5 rogue is better at it. By 5th level you are in Captain America league of Humans. And yes, the lower half of a Centaur is in fact a horse, with all those limitations. He is smarter and has hands, but none of that makes up for the fact he has very fragile legs, limited leg movement and an hooves, which are poorly suited for even easy climbs.
A goat and a Horse are very different animals with very different bodies.
A non-magical item that would let such creatures climb solo would be ideal.
Its called rope and block and tackle.
It is not, but then a centaur that is not mad knows he can't climb. So does not try. But if he can only get somewhere by a shear cliff, then its magic or the block and tackle.
A GM might allow something, but the player needs to take the good with the bad.
A centaur =/= a horse.
I would allow it.
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With those kinds of things in mind, I think that claiming it's simply impossible for a centaur to climb a sheer wall doesn't make any sense. That's applying real-world limitations to an intelligent fantasy creature in a world where impossible things happen on a regular basis, not to mention that a centaur has two extra limbs with grasping hands that a horse doesn't have.So you allow your humans to have Darkvision if they just 'look HARDER!'?
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian's senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet. A barbarian must have low-light vision as a rage power or a racial trait to select this rage power.
So, apparently, yes it is RAW to give darkvision to humans if they try really hard. :D
About the centaur discussion, we should first ask ourselves a basic question:
The human half of the centaur is capable to bend forward to the point that is whole spine form a straight line from tail to head?
Or they should always keep a L posture?
If the latter version is true they will have a extemely hard time climbing a sheer surface.
If the former is true they aren't much worse than a human. All of their 6 limbs can be in line with the surface. A simple "spiked" horseshoe would allow them a good purchase on almost any surface with even minimal cracks .
They would have a negative modifier, but it will not be impossible.
We shouldn't always go with our gut reasoning and think that a hybrid specie will always get the worse of both components, but try to think what the adaptation of a fantastic specie will be.
An, BTW, why a centaur can't use snowshoes? Give me a reasonable reply, not "horses can't do that, so a intelligent beings with hands can't do that".
So, apparently, yes it is RAW to give darkvision to humans if they try really hard. :D
No, that is a class, not the race.
About the centaur discussion, we should first ask ourselves a basic question:
The human half of the centaur is capable to bend forward to the point that is whole spine form a straight line from tail to head?
Or they should always keep a L posture?If the latter version is true they will have a extemely hard time climbing a sheer surface.
If the former is true they aren't much worse than a human. All of their 6 limbs can be in line with the surface. A simple "spiked" horseshoe would allow them a good purchase on almost any surface with even minimal cracks .
They would have a negative modifier, but it will not be impossible.
But see a horse is not a cat or goat. If you have either of those as the lower half, you could bend and move your legs in a way that could help you support yourself.
As it is however your lower end is useless in a climb, think of it as a parlized man pulling 800+ pounds behind him. Its a hindrance not a help he has 6 legs. They simply can not move in a way that would help his climb.
Centaurs have a lot of advantages and some disadvantages. Not being able to climb is one of them.
Boots...err Horeshoes of levitate. Done.
The shape just makes it terrible for climbing. In order for the Centaur to use any of its legs, it would prop the human torso away from the cliff. And if the centaur were to use it's arms, it couldn't use its horse legs (as the horse body would be perpendicular to the cliff) and is even more implausible than just using the legs. The goat thing I could maybe see climbing with it's goat portion (leaving it's human portion free), I'd still say it would be a terribly high climb check with using hooves and having that human portion unbalancing it.
On the other hand I DO see the comparison between a horse and a centaur as a valid comparison and starting point for discussion. Its clearly described as a horse/man hybrid afterall. Humans can lift their own weight on average and not much more. The horse half of a centaur is a substantial addition of unwieldy weight that the human torso must deal with. A human sure ain't freehand climbing a sheer cliff weighted down with an additional 800 pounds of weight. Not without special magics or circumstances anyway.
Actually, just get your STR up to a 28. Light load for 28 STR is 400 lbs, centaurs are large, which means x2 for encumbrance. Boom, 800 pounds is a light load and you can freehand climb that cliff! (And as a bonus, at a 23 STR 400 lbs is the upper cap of medium encumbrance, so at STR 23, your centaur can haul his butt up that sheer cliff with only a -3 check penalty.)
Can a Centaur use the old adam west batman climb?
You know lean back on the rope and just walk up buildings?
Relevant?
Not in the lest.