What happened to Aroden?

[rookiemonster]

My understanding of the rules was that Gods and other Outsiders do not have souls....when they die they are just gone.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

It should also be pointed out that when Pharasma judges someone's soul, she generally sends it somewhere, and since none of the other gods are going "Lookee here! I've got Aroden's soul right here!" it begs the question of where Aroden's soul is.

There's also this theological point:

"Thais, the Accidental Herald
Before rising to the status of Herald of the Accidental God, Thais was a prostitute and friend of the then mortal Cayden Cailean. The two adventured together on more than one occasion, and after her death the now divine Cayden claimed her spirit and placed her in her current role."

Thais is a mortal who became a demigoddess after death specifically because her friend Cayden Cailean passed the test of the Starstone, became a god, and then decided he needed a herald.

Since Iomedae became a goddess the same way--except she did it on purpose--it's a reasonable theological question whether she now has Aroden's soul, and if so, why doesn't she just raise it to godhood again?

I should point out that I don't want these questions answered as they are best answered by individual GMs.

[LazarX]

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

It should also be pointed out that when Pharasma judges someone's soul, she generally sends it somewhere, and since none of the other gods are going "Lookee here! I've got Aroden's soul right here!" it begs the question of where Aroden's soul is.

There's a lot unknown.. the soul of a god is not necessarily tied to the same dooms and rules as that of mortals, even if that soul was once mortal itself. Pharasma has her limits of power of knowledge, even she will die someday. I think that expecting a simple raise dead to right the death of a diety is a bit of a premature expectation. Aroden's death is a fixed point in time,once it happened, it HAD to happen.

[Terraneaux]

My personal canon at this point is that Aroden pulled a God-Emperor to free mortals (mostly humans) from the shackles of prophecy. Most of the other god and goddesses, like Pharasma, are pretty miffed about this, as they like humans at the mercy of prophecy, and probably just had his soul outright destroyed when it came up to be judged.

[LazarX]

Terraneaux wrote:

My personal canon at this point is that Aroden pulled a God-Emperor to free mortals (mostly humans) from the shackles of prophecy. Most of the other god and goddesses, like Pharasma, are pretty miffed about this, as they like humans at the mercy of prophecy, and probably just had his soul outright destroyed when it came up to be judged.

The Frank Herbert forums are that way ------->

[Icyshadow]

It's been deliberately kept a secret.

Fill out your own canon for it if you must, I prefer to keep it a mystery.

[FallofCamelot]

James Jacobs wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Klebert L. Hall wrote:

He died?

-Kle.

Death certificate or it didn't happen.

The way a god's death certificate looks in Golarion is all of his clerics suddenly and forevermore losing the ability to cast spells or be clerics until they shift religions.

That's what you say...

[Perignan]

What if Rovagug's prison was slowly crumbling away and that in order to keep him there, something had to be done? Maybe that something was Aroden giving away his essence so that Asmodeus could strenghten the prison.

That way, Aroden had to choose between letting Rovagug go free and kill humanity, of letting Asmodeus control it.

The Eye of Abendego might be the "plug" that keep Rovagug from getting out, or something to that effect.

Granted, i havent read all Pathfinder material (yet), so maybe there is something somewhere making that theory invalid...

[Annika]

Aroden's not dead, he's just pining for the Fjords =P

[Que Viva Aroden!]

Hiyas!

The Golarion Enquirer has an interview w/a half-orckess that claims Aroden is alive & well in Mwangi & is her baby's daddy. It's titled: "My Night with a God." Now how can you DNA-test this?

VA!

[Cthulhudrew]

We need a Pathfinder module titled, "Die, Aroden! Die!"

[Set]

Cthulhudrew wrote:

We need a Pathfinder module titled, "Die, Aroden! Die!"

If his death was necessary, perhaps even something he chose, then a misguided attempt to resurrect him could make things go terribly kerflooey. Urgathoa's refusal to roll over and play dead brought plague and contagion into Golarion. Who knows what dreadful thing Aroden's intentional or unintentional defiance of the strictures of death could bring about?

This would be the sort of scenario where good characters could end up legitimately having reason to fight off other good types (perhaps even celestial / angelic servitors of Iomedae!), to prevent Aroden's resurrection, with all the world-shaking disasters that might entail.

Taken to a super-extreme, Iomedae herself could even end up falling from good to 'not-so-good' in the single-minded pursuit of resurrecting her old patron at any cost, regardless of the portents and potential consequences (or in the aftermath of being prevented from doing so by those she might have considered allies...).

On the other hand, Die, Vecna, Die! (and, IMO, the entire ascension of Vecna from cool dead lich with some artifacts named after him to shiny new evil god on the block) was... eh, not for me.

[Pendagast]

Aroden faked his own death so he and Jimmie Buffet could hang out in magaritaville and pick up scantily clad dwarven women.

[LazarX]

It was this Impossible Knight in Armor.. came straight out of a lake. All we remember is that we were by Aroden told not to interfere, that this is something that must happen there were flashes of light and he just keeled over and died!

One of our number took shots at the knight as it waded back into the water but none of them made their mark.

[Que Viva Aroden!]

Hi:

BTW, as a newbie, I was wondering where in Aroden's holy name is all this hinted at/described (what books)? Are the "official facts" within the Inner Sea Campaign book?

Thanks!
VA!

[Andru Watkins]

I think James Jacobs, Lord over dinosaurs, killed Aroden with a T. Rex. Why? Only he knows :)

[Set]

Aroden was killed by [draws card] Tar-Baphon in the [draws card] Starstone Cathedral with the [draws card] Fork of the Forgotten One.

[Icyshadow]

Set, is that a Deck of Many Theories you got there?

[Generic Villain]

There are hints and clues about Aroden's death scattered all over, but nothing to put together a complete picture (I think). For example, while studying the Eye of Abendego hurricane, the Lergeni astronomers went nuts and killed themselves upon making some huge discovery. And speaking of the Eye, there is a similar phenomena occuring on the planet Bretheda called the Eyes of the Ancients, and these appeared almost exactly 3,000 years before Aroden bit it.

[Rubber Ducky guy]

Icyshadow wrote:

Set, is that a Deck of Many Theories you got there?

Or Cluedo, the Pathfinder edition.

[Gandal]

Ok, i cannot hold on to this secret any longer, i'm going to spoiler it!!!!

What really happened to Aroden:

Chuck Norris killed him with a spin kick in the kitchen (from Cluedo the Chuck Norris edition)

[Pendagast]

chuck norris did not kill Aroden, he just allowed the others to live.

[Sjark]

In the campaign I am running, one of my PC's back story is that he woke up with no memory, and believes himself to be Aroden returned. Whether he is or not remains to be seen, lol, but it makes for an interesting story because he is trying to find out what happened to himself and reclaim his divinity.

[Tacticslion]

Huh: my dotting faded. Welp: fixed!

[Rusty One Two]

So, I may be much less familiar with the Canon than some of the others here, as I haven't been a subscriber since the beginning and I haven't seen all the material, but something about the story of Aroden occurs to me that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.

Aroden and the others that passed the test of the starstone did so because of the starstone. The starstone was sent by the Aboleth to destroy humanity, was it not? Why would the enemy of man send this world ending event, if it could be used to become a god? BECAUSE it can't.

Aroden led humanity to great heights, and he was of course the first to become a god through contact with the starstone. But he died. Not only did he die, he died suddenly, unannounced, and without "great war in heaven" preceding his death.

The aboleth are schemers with more patience than any other race I can think of. Their weapon was disguised as a comet that struck Golarion and ushered in the age of darkness. This killed a lot of humans, but anyone who knows anything about humans knows that adversity breed heroism. And it did. And Aroden raised the starstone and became the scion of humanity and led it to great heights, but the source of his power was it's very undoing. Perhaps it was a time limit, perhaps the gift of the starstone waits for it's masters to recall it, perhaps some other condition sets it off, but giving humanity the god Aroden, and then taking him away, or more to the point, calling upon a device such as the starstone whose true nature the aboleth were aware of, betrayed humanity and left it broken. Aroden's faith died, and in just over 100 years his works have already started falling apart.

I don't know if these suppositions are correct, but I think the mystery of the rise and fall of Aroden can be understood as it relates to how he became a god and who let that happen. Aroden had 4606 years of godhood, and the others who passed the test of the starstone did so in roughly 1000 year increments after he did, and so it is unknown if their tenures will exceed his. The starstone was the aboleth's "solution" to the "humanity problem" and ultimately the effects it has wrought are negative. It started a near-cataclysm, and it led to the age of lost omens, disenfranchising the gods themselves, and bringing the true authority and power of all the gods into question amongst their worshippers. "Worship me and I will be kind to you" is now silently answered by "until you die without warning and the world starts falling apart."

I think we have yet to see the full ramifications of the doomsday device called the "starstone", I for one am always suspicious of gifts that fall from the sky and kill hundreds and thousands of people. Especially if those gifts come at the behest of creatures whose "gods" scoff at the current divinity, and wait in the depths for their empire to rise again.

[Tacticslion]

That's actually a really good idea, however, it has been addressed and in a thread with an identical name to this one, humorously enough.

Here is a post by James Jacobs (the Creative Director of Paizo, and pretty much the most official answer you can get in terms of game canon), in which he says:

James Jacobs wrote:

The starstone was not a calculated part of the aboleth attack. It was, to them, a surprise. One they didn't even notice at the time, since it fell to Golarion thousands of miles outside of the part of the world they were targeting and paying the most attention to.

Thus... that's one theory that doesn't quite work.

The starstone may still be a deadly poison-divinity thing, however.

[Eradarus]

The reason he died had to be hid, otherwise Pharasma and more importantly NETHYS would have blabbed at some point. Which makes me think it involved Rovagug...

Now keep in mind that in this world... human sacrifice has power... lots of it.

Imagine if you sacrificed a GOD.

That's some serious juice... say, enough to make storms assault the coast of the inner sea for weeks on end...

Here's the thing. If this did involve Rovagug, say him getting out of his isolation... Asmodeus would be the logical recipient of this metric crapton of power... bad idea

Asmodeus is the gold standard of not to be trusted...ever...ever ever ever...

So Aroden would need some backup...someone to do two things.

1: Slit his throat...
2: Make sure Asmodeus doesn't keep it for himself... like the power hungry little jerk he is.

Who could he trust with this task? My money is on Torag...

If Torag did it... NO ONE could find out. At least none of the mortals who would blab it to EVERYONE...

It wouldn't go over well that one good god, a LG one at that, slit the throat of another for any reason...

So it had to be kept quiet... real quiet... like way better than government coverup quiet.

So of the gods... three would be issues.

Pharasma, given that Aroden would show up in the line eventually
Nethys, cause he has the annoying habit of being omniscient
And Groetus...cause hey...that guys a jerk...

Pharasma is smart enough to agree to keep her own trap shut...since blabbing would cause faith to evaporate quicker than a politicians nobility after winning an election...

Nethys would be an issue. One half of his wonder twins mental landscape would be mum... the other would like nothing more than to blab to everyone... probably with some annoying magic thingumy.

Groetus... well hes in self imposed exile... and he knows that cleaning up after Rovagug would be harder than cleaning up just about ANYTHING else...

So Asmodeus distracts or wards off Nethys, Torag slits Aroden's throat, Pharasma and Groetus keep quite and Rovagug doesn't get to imitate Kirstie Alley in a baskin robins...

And none of the inhabitants of Golarion are the wiser...

[wraithstrike]

Eradarus wrote:

The reason he died had to be hid, otherwise Pharasma and more importantly NETHYS would have blabbed at some point. Which makes me think it involved Rovagug...

Now keep in mind that in this world... human sacrifice has power... lots of it.

Where is that supported? I have never seen it in a book.

[Eradarus]

Logic supports it. If Aroden died of a cold or put a .45 in his mouth people would have talked about it.

Its not know, therefor there is a reason why its not known.

Its a logical assumption, if a loose one.

[Eradarus]

As far as sacrifice. You see it all the time. In rituals done by followers of all sorts of nasty gods.

Zon-Kuthon, Lamashtu... all of them have a thing for human sacrifice.

There has to be a reason why.

[wraithstrike]

The sacrifice "to evil" is a trope in many fantasy settings. It is not always an issue of power, but often a form of payment for the evil you are about to bring forth..

Yeah I know you did not say sacrifice to evil. I just wanted to present an alternate view.

As for your hypothesis it makes sense, but I am sure there are many deities would not want Aroden's prophecy about the human golden age to happen. Part of me does want Paizo to tell us, but I more than likely they will leave it as something for each GM to decide on his own. I think it was more of an assassination than anything else.

PS:Several deities died imprisoning Rovvy(Rovagug) the first time. If he had gotten out I think it would take more than a sacrifice to put him back in.

[Juda de Kerioth]

James Jacobs wrote:

thenovalord wrote:

I think its a weakness, others may think its a strength, but there is an awful lot of backstory in APs and PFS mods the pcs just never discover and miss out on.

On the Aroden front, there is a worshipper PC is our SS AP and in a world with 200+ active and proven 'gods', the rest of the pcs wonder why he would give homage to a dead one....

I agree, which is why in all APs I try to include ways for curious PCs to learn more about the backstory. Of course, if they just kill every NPC they encounter and aren't curious enough to look at old books or research things... they'll miss out as surely as if the GM doesn't utilize those elements to reveal backstory in the first place.

i remember have read something... the main issue between Pharasma and Iomedae was that pharasma took aroden as a champion when he dies because he can´t go to any phanteon cause he was a god... and that was the pact... iomedae becomes the walking god and... went on a quest in search for aroden if i remember correctly.

That was in which book?
gods and magic?
Also the history of the brother gods was a good one.

[Sstrad]

Hello there :)

I'm a new GM and this saturday I will run the last game of this fantastic AP: Carrion Crown.

Why do I post here?

Well, I did a lot of rework, and in my campaign, Aroden was killed by Iomadae herself. Okay, don't throw me rocks, I know where the door is ;)

I will tell the story next week I think,in the Carrion Crown messageboard.

[Set]

Sstrad wrote:

Well, I did a lot of rework, and in my campaign, Aroden was killed by Iomadae herself. Okay, don't throw me rocks, I know where the door is ;)

The central message of Prometheus was that the most important thing a king can do is die and pass the torch on to the next generation.

If Aroden was the god of history, civilization and innovation, as well as humanity, it would follow that he had to die to free humanity from the chains of the past and allow them to grow into the future. As the 'Last Azlanti,' he represented a race of men whose time had passed, and whose culture was enslaved to another, and whose remnants had degenerated into the Runelords of Thassilon. Any attempt to bring them back or reprise that 'glory' would be a step backwards for humanity as a species.

Best to bury them and move on (the Mordant Spire elves, fiercely guarding the sunken ruins of old Azlant and keeping modern-day humans the hell away from them, probably agree strongly with this!).

And yet, something stood in the way of moving humanity past the crutch of the Azlanti, and the rosy-goggled view that their time was a golden age of the ascension of man and a time to be studied and idealized and reproduced. The very god of humanity was an Azlanti, and, by dint of his heritage, stood in the way of mankind moving past that to become something greater.

Perhaps, as an Azlanti, Aroden himself bore subtle chains, tying him to the true masters of old Azlant, and he could not bear the thought that those squamous things would use their yoke on him to steer the direction of the many races of man who had not grown up in their shadow.

So he died. Perhaps at his own hand, perhaps at the hand of his trusted confidante, Iomedae (who may have known her role, or may have been manipulated by her mentor into seeing the wickedness that bound him, and slew him unaware that he had placed the sword in her hand, and her feet upon the path, carefully arranging his own demise as he had carefully engineered her rise to godhood and her inevitable 'Inheritance').

In striking down her mentor, lover and liege, Iomedae struck away the last and strongest chain binding the fate of humanity to the will of the Aboleth.

[FrankManic]

Wait, this is still a Mystery? Aroden died in a drinking contest with the Lucky Drunk. They were using the "rum" rules from Skull and Shackles and Aroden con-damaged himself to death. The gods have been keeping it on the DL out of sheer embarrassment.

[Tirisfal]

This theory is still my favorite.

[PnP Fan]

Terraneaux wrote:

My personal canon at this point is that Aroden pulled a God-Emperor to free mortals (mostly humans) from the shackles of prophecy. Most of the other god and goddesses, like Pharasma, are pretty miffed about this, as they like humans at the mercy of prophecy, and probably just had his soul outright destroyed when it came up to be judged.

This is actually at the core of my current campaign! I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing these ideas in the setting material.

[Izar Talon]

Azathoth laughed at a joke told by Nyarlathotep that briefly pierced it's eternal gibbering idiocy. Azathoth laughed, and Aroden died.

[Lamontius]

This will be solved in the Numeria AP's second chapter,

ROBOSKORPOPLEXITRON VS. MECHA-ARODEN 2.0, THE REBOOTED GOD

[Black Dougal]

Aroden was actually Sean Bean

[LazarX]

Gorbacz wrote:

Klebert L. Hall wrote:

He died?

-Kle.

Death certificate or it didn't happen.

In Golarion you don't get a more certain certificate than Pharasma's declaring that a soul has been judged. Aroden's dead and he was judged to a fate which Pharasma keeps secret.

[Tirisfal]

LazarX wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Klebert L. Hall wrote:

He died?

-Kle.

Death certificate or it didn't happen.

In Golarion you don't get a more certain certificate than Pharasma's declaring that a soul has been judged. Aroden's dead and he was judged to a fate which Pharasma keeps secret.

There's also Pharasma's minion, Echo of Lost Divinity.

"This minion is a spectral warrior bedecked in expensive dress. It bears an uncanny similarity to known renderings of Aroden."

[Harark]

James Jacobs wrote:

The way a god's death certificate looks in Golarion is all of his clerics suddenly and forevermore losing the ability to cast spells or be clerics until they shift religions.

I know this is a bit late, but I have a question on this. Is it possible that a god could choose not give his clerics powers anymore? You know to make it seem like he died. Then get the Death Goddess to claim he died so he can go off a do something secretly. It's a classic fake out(with a bit of a twist) in numerous different stories.

[LazarX]

Harark wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The way a god's death certificate looks in Golarion is all of his clerics suddenly and forevermore losing the ability to cast spells or be clerics until they shift religions.

I know this is a bit late, but I have a question on this. Is it possible that a god could choose not give his clerics powers anymore? You know to make it seem like he died. Then get the Death Goddess to claim he died so he can go off a do something secretly. It's a classic fake out(with a bit of a twist) in numerous different stories.

A god who does that do... essentially eliminates his influence in the mortal world. At the very least it means quitting the game. At the very worst, it may mean forfeiting your existence entirely. Not even Lolth went that far.

[Tacticslion]

LazarX wrote:

Harark wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The way a god's death certificate looks in Golarion is all of his clerics suddenly and forevermore losing the ability to cast spells or be clerics until they shift religions.

I know this is a bit late, but I have a question on this. Is it possible that a god could choose not give his clerics powers anymore? You know to make it seem like he died. Then get the Death Goddess to claim he died so he can go off a do something secretly. It's a classic fake out(with a bit of a twist) in numerous different stories.

A god who does that do... essentially eliminates his influence in the mortal world. At the very least it means quitting the game. At the very worst, it may mean forfeiting your existence entirely. Not even Lolth went that far.

In Golarion, at least, I don't think that's true. I believe that Golarion gods don't require worship to exist. You are still definitely correct, at least, that they'd be losing their (mortal) influence in the world.

[pennywit]

"Aroden" is the former guise of the great god Razmir.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

pennywit wrote:

"Aroden" is the former guise of the great god Razmir.

Well, the timing is right at least...

[Alleran]

Tacticslion wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Harark wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The way a god's death certificate looks in Golarion is all of his clerics suddenly and forevermore losing the ability to cast spells or be clerics until they shift religions.

I know this is a bit late, but I have a question on this. Is it possible that a god could choose not give his clerics powers anymore? You know to make it seem like he died. Then get the Death Goddess to claim he died so he can go off a do something secretly. It's a classic fake out(with a bit of a twist) in numerous different stories.

A god who does that do... essentially eliminates his influence in the mortal world. At the very least it means quitting the game. At the very worst, it may mean forfeiting your existence entirely. Not even Lolth went that far.

In Golarion, at least, I don't think that's true. I believe that Golarion gods don't require worship to exist. You are still definitely correct, at least, that they'd be losing their (mortal) influence in the world.

Apparently there are some demigods/gods who do this. They're forgotten gods, but choose to do other things than spread their influence.

[Tacticslion]

Alleran wrote:

Apparently there are some demigods/gods who do this. They're forgotten gods, but choose to do other things than spread their influence.

Actually, that's what I mean. Even without worship, they continue on.

I agree that they kind of lose mortal influence. But what Laz was referring to (I think, though I could be wrong) was Forgotten Realms' requirement that either a) a god had worshipers or b) it slowly died.

He also referenced the loss in influence, which I agree with. :)

[Set]

Tacticslion wrote:

Actually, that's what I mean. Even without worship, they continue on.

I agree that they kind of lose mortal influence. But what Laz was referring to (I think, though I could be wrong) was Forgotten Realms' requirement that either a) a god had worshipers or b) it slowly died.

Yeah, like 'Ao the Overgod,' I'm not sure that concept translated over to Golarion. If the amount of worshippers one had made a lick of difference to one's power, then Lamashtu (with much of the goblin, hobgoblin, minotaur and gnoll races, as well as cultists of other races) would probably the biggest baddest god of all, while more low-key gods with few dedicated worshippers, or worshippers predominant among the smallest population groups on Golarion, like Desna or Pharasma or Calistria would be frail weak things.

And that ain't the case.

Heck, two of the elven gods have five Domains, ranking them up there with the 'big 20' and over the demon lords, empyreals, etc., and you can use your thumb to completely squish the entire elven presence on the Inner Sea, likely murderizing all seventeen of their worshippers. :)

Apsu and Dahak are also five Domain 'big gods,' and might have only a few hundred dragons following them. Souls, when they become petitioners, lose their class levels and racial qualities and memories of being anything other than a worm with a human face (in Hell, anyway), so it's not like a mythic dragon archmage soul is 'worth more points' than a commoner 1 human. Once it's in a night hag's jar, every soul seems to weigh the same...

Worshippers = power fell apart even in the Realms, where gods with few if any worshippers, like Shar and Ao and the big dinosaur dude in Chult, were 'Greater' gods, while 'lesser gods' like Tymora or Torm seemed to have shrines in every town, and be the gods of choice for everyone. Gods like the Kossuth and the other 'cold elemental lords' seemed to actively dislike their worshippers, and yet got along just fine. Mystra's another one who had relatively few major churches or followings, since she was something of a 'magic-user goddess' with little to offer (or interest) the other 99% of people who weren't wizards.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

I found it a bit odd that Mythic Origins and Realms had zero references to Aroden that weren't already known.