Need Paladin Advice for Jade Regent


Jade Regent

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Okay so I will be GMing Jade Regent starting shortly and I have a player who wants to play a Human Paladin but he very emphatically told me he doesn't want to be a follower of Iomedae.

So the question is what Gods would be region appropriate to suggest to him.

A further note is that he would prefer a deity who's favored weapon would be a bludgeoning type (just a personal preference I think).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
atheral wrote:

Okay so I will be GMing Jade Regent starting shortly and I have a player who wants to play a Human Paladin but he very emphatically told me he doesn't want to be a follower of Iomedae.

So the question is what Gods would be region appropriate to suggest to him.

A further note is that he would prefer a deity who's favored weapon would be a bludgeoning type (just a personal preference I think).

Of the main available deities, the only one with a bludgeoning weapon is Torag. Note, however, that Torag is kind of a hardass and his Paladins are expected to be that way, too. The Paladin code for Torag has stuff in it like "Wipe out all enemies of my people, leave no survivors".

The other available gods for Paladins are Erastil, Saranrae, Shelyn and Abadar. All have a different focus.

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Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.

Your player should check out Faiths of Purity, though; that has a section about how paladins of Iomedae, Torag, Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Erastil function. Faiths of Balance has advice for Paladins of Abadar.

Or he could just play a paladin of ALL the lawful good deities. Or just a paladin who decides to pledge his/her life to his companion's safety, or to some sort of knighthood or other organization. The Eagle Kngihts and the Knights of Ozem and the Hellknights are three such established orders you could look at.


James Jacobs wrote:

Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.

Your player should check out Faiths of Purity, though; that has a section about how paladins of Iomedae, Torag, Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Erastil function. Faiths of Balance has advice for Paladins of Abadar.

Or he could just play a paladin of ALL the lawful good deities. Or just a paladin who decides to pledge his/her life to his companion's safety, or to some sort of knighthood or other organization. The Eagle Kngihts and the Knights of Ozem and the Hellknights are three such established orders you could look at.

Much obliged sir, and to magunskun as well. We were laboring under the misconception that a paladin operated like a cleric (must have a specific deity and could be no more than one step from alignment etc)..I will be suggesting that he look into these new options...


If he wants to devote himself to a specific cause rather than a specific deity, I would suggest at least looking at the oathbound paladin from Ultimate Magic. The Oath of Loyalty would work if he'd dedicated to protecting Ameiko (or anyone else on the caravan), or if he wants to avoid the whole NPC romance angle he could take the Oath of Chastity.

The Exchange

atheral wrote:
Okay so I will be GMing Jade Regent starting shortly and I have a player who wants to play a Human Paladin but he very emphatically told me he doesn't want to be a follower of Iomedae.

He should follow Asmodeus, just to annoy James Jacobs.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

LeadPal wrote:
atheral wrote:
Okay so I will be GMing Jade Regent starting shortly and I have a player who wants to play a Human Paladin but he very emphatically told me he doesn't want to be a follower of Iomedae.
He should follow Asmodeus, just to annoy James Jacobs.

If you want to do that, he should also be a dwarf who's out to slay all dinosaurs, of course...

Spoiler:

(that's a trick... since killing a dinosaur is obviously an evil act, he'd fall from his paladinhood immediately and then Asmodeus wins another round)


James Jacobs wrote:
Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.

Clerics don't either, some can follow concepts too. I've got a player in one of my games who has no clue where his spells are coming from. If it progresses far enough and it works out storyline-wise, I might look into having him "pay the piper" eventually. ;)


Zaranorth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.
Clerics don't either, some can follow concepts too. I've got a player in one of my games who has no clue where his spells are coming from. If it progresses far enough and it works out storyline-wise, I might look into having him "pay the piper" eventually. ;)

Not on Golarion. There it's either deity or no cleric.


James Jacobs wrote:


If you want to do that, he should also be a dwarf who's out to slay all dinosaurs, of course...

I don't think Asmodeus takes half-followers. You must be *this* tall and human to join.

And for once, his prejudiced ways are a force of good.


KaeYoss wrote:
Zaranorth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.
Clerics don't either, some can follow concepts too. I've got a player in one of my games who has no clue where his spells are coming from. If it progresses far enough and it works out storyline-wise, I might look into having him "pay the piper" eventually. ;)
Not on Golarion. There it's either deity or no cleric.

Where's it say that? The class descriptions in the Inner Sea World guide doesn't. Hmm, but I didn't look in the religion section.


Zaranorth wrote:
Not on Golarion. There it's either deity or no cleric.
Where's it say that? The class descriptions in the Inner Sea World guide doesn't. Hmm, but I didn't look in the religion section.

It was stated a few times by the creators and developers of the world, including certain creative director whose comments can be found in this very thread, that on Golarion Clerics gain their power from specific deities. I think it was also stated in either Pathfinder Campaign Setting or Gazetter. Should be in Inner Sea World Guide unless it was erroneously missed.


Drejk wrote:
Zaranorth wrote:
Where's it say that? The class descriptions in the Inner Sea World guide doesn't. Hmm, but I didn't look in the religion section.
It was stated a few times by the creators and developers of the world, including certain creative director whose comments can be found in this very thread, that on Golarion Clerics gain their power from specific deities. I think it was also stated in either Pathfinder Campaign Setting or Gazetter. Should be in Inner Sea World Guide unless it was erroneously missed.

Yeah, I know, his post and my response is what started this thread hijack. I was simply asking where it is written.

I don't have either of the other core setting books, they've been superseded by the ISWG anyways. Nor do I have the time or ability (or desire) to parse the thousands of threads to find such rules.

And in the end, it doesn't really affect the core concept of the setting, as compared to, say thinking the Pathfinder Society was out for world domination via assassination or that Cheliax is a nation of laid-back hippies. :)

Dark Archive

What I'm curious about is if Paizo will come up with some non-theistic religions for Tian Xia (ex. Buddhism, Taoism).

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Zaranorth wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Zaranorth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.
Clerics don't either, some can follow concepts too. I've got a player in one of my games who has no clue where his spells are coming from. If it progresses far enough and it works out storyline-wise, I might look into having him "pay the piper" eventually. ;)
Not on Golarion. There it's either deity or no cleric.
Where's it say that? The class descriptions in the Inner Sea World guide doesn't. Hmm, but I didn't look in the religion section.

I say that, for one thing. :-P

I really wish we'd put that into print for clerics in the core book though...

In any case, in your home game version of Golarion, anyone is free to rule as they want. In the official Golarion, though, the cleric is the ONLY class that must choose a deity. And one day I'll convince the powers that be to errata that in the core rulebook.


James Jacobs wrote:

And one day I'll convince the powers that be to errata that in the core rulebook.

May the Gods be with you in thy holy quest.


James Jacobs wrote:

Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.

[SNIP] Or just a paladin who decides to pledge his/her life to his companion's safety, or to some sort of knighthood or other organization. The Eagle Kngihts and the Knights of Ozem and the Hellknights are three such established orders you could look at.

I am having much lol over the idea of Paladin Hellknight. Not quite ROTFL, but more than normal lol...


Well this topic resulted in more activity than I expected and useful as well.

I believe the fellow I was referring to in the first post has decided to attempt to play a paladin of Erastil who typically dwells in the wilds around Sandpoint defending the farmlands etc.

He did seriously debate the Hellknight Paladin Idea but we were having a difficult time trying to figure out how he would end up joining an order...also he thought he would have a hard time restraining himself from killing another party member who is basically setting up a character to be as antagonistic to the paladin as can be without being an outright enemy.

Oddly enough that other character will be a cleric, apparently of Nethys, before reading the new posts on here about it he was lobbying for a cleric of an ideology but I shot it down due to the wording of the class where it specifically has the word deity in every ability description.

But the player is bound and determined that he will find a way to build an army of undead servants and somehow maintain his true neutral alignment.

I fully expect the first time he creates a zombie or skeleton the paladin player will smite him anyways.


atheral wrote:
But the player is bound and determined that he will find a way to build an army of undead servants and somehow maintain his true neutral alignment.

Oracle with Juju mystery from Serpent Skull - Spirit Vessels revelation. It removes evil descriptor from spells that create undeads and change alignement of Undeads created to neutral or the caster's alignement in case of intelligent Undead.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
atheral wrote:

But the [cleric] player is bound and determined that he will find a way to build an army of undead servants and somehow maintain his true neutral alignment.

I fully expect the first time he creates a zombie or skeleton the paladin player will smite him anyways.

And rightly so. Creating undead is an evil act. See here for clarification.

Of course, the GM can houserule anything he or she wants, but by the rules, creating undead is an evil act, end of story.


cynarion wrote:
atheral wrote:

But the [cleric] player is bound and determined that he will find a way to build an army of undead servants and somehow maintain his true neutral alignment.

I fully expect the first time he creates a zombie or skeleton the paladin player will smite him anyways.

And rightly so. Creating undead is an evil act. See here for clarification.

Of course, the GM can houserule anything he or she wants, but by the rules, creating undead is an evil act, end of story.

Oh he was thoroughly warned about this by myself, the paladin's player, and our resident rules lawyer, actually based on what I've read in the AP

Plot Spoiler:
it may be a race between the paladin, the NPC Cleric, and the the cleric of Desna that takes care of the graveyard at Brinewall, to see who can kill him. Because knowing the player more than the character he will try something in that graveyard

I didn't think about that Juju mystery though...its interesting but I think I would still go with create undead = evil no matter what.


James Jacobs wrote:

I say that, for one thing. :-P

I really wish we'd put that into print for clerics in the core book though...

In any case, in your home game version of Golarion, anyone is free to rule as they want. In the official Golarion, though, the cleric is the ONLY class that must choose a deity. And one day I'll convince the powers that be to errata that in the core rulebook.

Alrighty! :) (And it's good to know that I haven't been somehow overlooking that rule all this time.)

The annoying thing about the whole things was that I agree with the position that clerics need a deity and tend to enforce it myself, other than this one time. I just hadn't seen anything up until this thread about that being the actual case for Golarion. The player in my group really wanted to play a cleric but had various reasons, in and out of game, to not tie it to a deity. I acquiesced as these are off-night alts anyways. Frequently killed and then resurrected the next time we're short on players for the core storyline.

I wonder how many other things I've missed, this is the first departure from the core rules I've come across (that I remember at least).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My impression from ISWG was that clerics on Golarion can devote themselves to a cause, but their spells are granted by a deity (or other source of divine power) whose concerns include that cause, so that they're effectively a cleric of that deity.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Rhishisikk wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Unlike clerics, paladins do not have to worship deities.

[SNIP] Or just a paladin who decides to pledge his/her life to his companion's safety, or to some sort of knighthood or other organization. The Eagle Kngihts and the Knights of Ozem and the Hellknights are three such established orders you could look at.
I am having much lol over the idea of Paladin Hellknight. Not quite ROTFL, but more than normal lol...

Since Hellknights are usually lawful neutral, it's just as plausible for a lawful good one as it is for a lawful evil one. Pathfinder AP volumes #27 and #28 have large articles about the Hellknights that have a lot more information about how they work, and why both clerics of Asmodeus and paladins can work for the group. Probably not the same ORDERS at the same time, though... but there are a LOT of Hellknight orders.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Revan wrote:
My impression from ISWG was that clerics on Golarion can devote themselves to a cause, but their spells are granted by a deity (or other source of divine power) whose concerns include that cause, so that they're effectively a cleric of that deity.

Nope; all clerics worship a deity.

If you want to play a divine caster in Golarion that doesn't worship a deity, you have pretty much every other divine caster to choose from. Oracles in particular were more or less invented to cover this very role.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Revan wrote:
My impression from ISWG was that clerics on Golarion can devote themselves to a cause, but their spells are granted by a deity (or other source of divine power) whose concerns include that cause, so that they're effectively a cleric of that deity.

Nope; all clerics worship a deity.

If you want to play a divine caster in Golarion that doesn't worship a deity, you have pretty much every other divine caster to choose from. Oracles in particular were more or less invented to cover this very role.

"Clerics who follow a philosophy must select a patron deity among the philosophy’s associated religions (they gain no additional benefits from adherence to a philosophy)."

This suggests that you can identify yourself as a Cleric of The Green Faith, or a cleric of Undeath, but that your spells would actually come from Gozreh or Erastil; or Orcus or Urgathoa.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Revan wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Revan wrote:
My impression from ISWG was that clerics on Golarion can devote themselves to a cause, but their spells are granted by a deity (or other source of divine power) whose concerns include that cause, so that they're effectively a cleric of that deity.

Nope; all clerics worship a deity.

If you want to play a divine caster in Golarion that doesn't worship a deity, you have pretty much every other divine caster to choose from. Oracles in particular were more or less invented to cover this very role.

"Clerics who follow a philosophy must select a patron deity among the philosophy’s associated religions (they gain no additional benefits from adherence to a philosophy)."

This suggests that you can identify yourself as a Cleric of The Green Faith, or a cleric of Undeath, but that your spells would actually come from Gozreh or Erastil; or Orcus or Urgathoa.

That line of text from the Core Rulebook is one I'd like to errata into oblivion, frankly.

That said, if you as the GM are cool with it, you can let clerics do that in your Golarion game.

Just don't expect us to publish support for that type of cleric is what I'm saying.


Actually, this brings up a point - does the cleric (PC) have to know which deity his spells come from? I was going to convert over some Kalamar adventures, and Norgorber looks just like the sort of deity who would fake being another to lead an errant cleric further astray...

[edit]
In the sense that the cleric gets cut off from their spells, and Norgorber starts granting them. The cleric goes "it must be cool, I'm still getting spells", and continues their behavior until their alignment changes. Norgorber gets a good laugh, and takes a soul phone picture of the surprised look on the cleric's face and posts it on the deity-astral-web, or whatever they use.
[/edit]


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James Jacobs wrote:
Revan wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Revan wrote:
My impression from ISWG was that clerics on Golarion can devote themselves to a cause, but their spells are granted by a deity (or other source of divine power) whose concerns include that cause, so that they're effectively a cleric of that deity.

Nope; all clerics worship a deity.

If you want to play a divine caster in Golarion that doesn't worship a deity, you have pretty much every other divine caster to choose from. Oracles in particular were more or less invented to cover this very role.

"Clerics who follow a philosophy must select a patron deity among the philosophy’s associated religions (they gain no additional benefits from adherence to a philosophy)."

This suggests that you can identify yourself as a Cleric of The Green Faith, or a cleric of Undeath, but that your spells would actually come from Gozreh or Erastil; or Orcus or Urgathoa.

That line of text from the Core Rulebook is one I'd like to errata into oblivion, frankly.

That said, if you as the GM are cool with it, you can let clerics do that in your Golarion game.

Just don't expect us to publish support for that type of cleric is what I'm saying.

That was a direct copy-and-paste from the Inner Sea World Guide, actually, not the Core rules.


philosophy’s are nt faith. They are ideas you agree with and like, but can not grant spells. If you do not worship your god, then you are not a cleric. A god does not grant a random cleric powers on the down low.

The class you are looking for is an oracle, which does in fact get it's powers like this.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Rhishisikk wrote:

Actually, this brings up a point - does the cleric (PC) have to know which deity his spells come from? I was going to convert over some Kalamar adventures, and Norgorber looks just like the sort of deity who would fake being another to lead an errant cleric further astray...

[edit]
In the sense that the cleric gets cut off from their spells, and Norgorber starts granting them. The cleric goes "it must be cool, I'm still getting spells", and continues their behavior until their alignment changes. Norgorber gets a good laugh, and takes a soul phone picture of the surprised look on the cleric's face and posts it on the deity-astral-web, or whatever they use.
[/edit]

Yes, a cleric knows where his spells come from.

The best option to play a divine spellcaster who isn't sure where their spells come from is, again, an oracle. In fact, this is a PERFECT choice for this type of character, since oracles get things called "mysteries" in the first place.

But the concept of a cleric thinking they're worshiping Deity 1 when in fact they're actually getting spells from Deity 2 is relatively nonsensical in my mind.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Revan wrote:
That was a direct copy-and-paste from the Inner Sea World Guide, actually, not the Core rules.

Ah... I misread the quote because I assumed you were trying to offer proof that clerics don't need deities, when in fact what the quote is saying is exactly what I've been saying: If you are a cleric who adheres to a philosophy, you still need to pick a deity.

You can absolutely play a cleric of the Green Faith, but you'd still need to pick a god who was associated in some way with that philosophy, such as Gozreh.


James Jacobs wrote:
Rhishisikk wrote:

Actually, this brings up a point - does the cleric (PC) have to know which deity his spells come from? I was going to convert over some Kalamar adventures, and Norgorber looks just like the sort of deity who would fake being another to lead an errant cleric further astray...

[edit]
In the sense that the cleric gets cut off from their spells, and Norgorber starts granting them. The cleric goes "it must be cool, I'm still getting spells", and continues their behavior until their alignment changes. Norgorber gets a good laugh, and takes a soul phone picture of the surprised look on the cleric's face and posts it on the deity-astral-web, or whatever they use.
[/edit]

Yes, a cleric knows where his spells come from.

The best option to play a divine spellcaster who isn't sure where their spells come from is, again, an oracle. In fact, this is a PERFECT choice for this type of character, since oracles get things called "mysteries" in the first place.

But the concept of a cleric thinking they're worshiping Deity 1 when in fact they're actually getting spells from Deity 2 is relatively nonsensical in my mind.

Actually I have to disagree here, but only in the slightest sense. I think the concept of a cleric being given spells by someone other than his/her god and not knowing would be a cool plot (read:one time special thing) but only in the sense of the most epic high levels and the whole "kidnapped diety and villianous diety usurping their power" sense. Would make an awesome end game adventure or epic adventure where the pcs have to essentially get some magguffin and save Iomedae from the clutches of Asmodeus or some such... but that would be a one time thing that had never occured before and never been dreamed of possible or something.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Stewart Perkins wrote:
Actually I have to disagree here, but only in the slightest sense. I think the concept of a cleric being given spells by someone other than his/her god and not knowing would be a cool plot (read:one time special thing) but only in the sense of the most epic high levels and the whole "kidnapped diety and villianous diety usurping their power" sense. Would make an awesome end game adventure or epic adventure where the pcs have to essentially get some magguffin and save Iomedae from the clutches of Asmodeus or some such... but that would be a one time thing that had never occured before and never been dreamed of possible or something.

While that is indeed a cool plot... it's a better plot for a novel or a movie than it is for an RPG. Deities are fundamentally part of a player character's personality, and players who enjoy playing clerics do so primarily because they get to play what is essentially a "mini god." You have divine powers, fight with the same weapons as your deity, serve to be your deity's voice, wear the deity's symbol, and all that—you're essentially roleplaying the deity to a certain extent when you're playing a cleric.

Finding out that you've actually been doing the work of a different deity and that's who's been giving you your powers all along can be INCREDIBLY disappointing for a cleric's player. For a cleric player, choosing your deity is as important as a fighter choosing his weapons or a wizard choosing his specialty. I don't think telling a high level fighter that, in fact, he's been using maces all the time when he thought he was using swords and that now he can't use swords because they don't exist and you have to use maces from now on would go over well. (Obviously the mechanics there are a bit different... but the feeling would be the same.)

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James Jacobs wrote:
Finding out that you've actually been doing the work of a different deity and that's who's been giving you your powers all along can be INCREDIBLY disappointing for a cleric's player. . . .

That's why I wouldn't pull this on a player without collaborating with them. Now, if the GM and player get together and come up with this sort of thing as a planned character arc, it can be a lot of fun. I've actually DMed for a guy who did this very thing, and it worked out really well. The player specifically suggested several times that a spell might have a slightly different effect than his character intended, due to the other deity's influence.

But I completely agree that pulling something like the above *without* getting the player's buy-in first would not go over well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Revan wrote:
That was a direct copy-and-paste from the Inner Sea World Guide, actually, not the Core rules.

Ah... I misread the quote because I assumed you were trying to offer proof that clerics don't need deities, when in fact what the quote is saying is exactly what I've been saying: If you are a cleric who adheres to a philosophy, you still need to pick a deity.

You can absolutely play a cleric of the Green Faith, but you'd still need to pick a god who was associated in some way with that philosophy, such as Gozreh.

That's kind of what I meant. Take a cleric who identifies himself as a Cleric of the Whispering Way. My understanding is that he would be, for all mechanical purposes a Cleric of Urgathoa, and it is indeed Urgathoa that his power springs from. But his worship is entirely directed through the prism of the traditions of the Whispering Way; he might have little concern for the specific rituals of Urgathoa, or think of her as merely a face to a much larger truth. Maybe he'll even use the Whispering Way symbol instead of Urgathoa's symbol for the holy symbol. But because his conviction is so strongly aligned with Urgathoa's goals, she grants him that divine power.


Revan wrote:
Maybe he'll even use the Whispering Way symbol instead of Urgathoa's symbol for the holy symbol. But because his conviction is so strongly aligned with Urgathoa's goals, she grants him that divine power.

Then he has no unholy symbol at all.He is not a cleric of the whispering way, but a cleric of Urgathoa. If he does not truly worship her then he is not a cleric of Urgathoa at all.

Liberty's Edge

I feel that forcing a Cleric to follow a specific deity, which comes with its own divine baggage and most of all enemies, curtails the possibilities in roleplaying. More precisely, it completely forbids playing a Cleric of the whole pantheon who reveres and respects each and every god and gets his powers from that very respect and faith.

And such a caster knows very well where his powers come from, thus no "he is an Oracle" way around it.

Finally, I feel that forcing a Cleric to follow one of the gods of the Golarion pantheons is trying to shoehorn the player's concept in the necessarily limited number of options (gods) of domains, alignments and weapons of choice made available by the Paizo products. In essence, it forces all players of Clerics to bow to the preconceptions of the designers concerning how gods, domains, alignments and such must interact.

Though I can always houserule things in my campaigns, I would rather have the CRB stick with the more diversity trend rather than the other way around, as it is always easier to restrict than to expand.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Revan wrote:
Maybe he'll even use the Whispering Way symbol instead of Urgathoa's symbol for the holy symbol. But because his conviction is so strongly aligned with Urgathoa's goals, she grants him that divine power.
Then he has no unholy symbol at all.He is not a cleric of the whispering way, but a cleric of Urgathoa. If he does not truly worship her then he is not a cleric of Urgathoa at all.

Because there's no such thing as alternate symbologies, or sects which view the tenets of a religion through a different prism, of course.

The identified cleric believes with unswerving faith in the ideals of undeath that the Whispering Way stands for, and pays homage to Urgathoa as an embodiment of those ideals. He advances Urgathoa's interests with all the fervor of those who worship her directly. He's just not as interested in those aspects of her worship that don't tie in with the Whispering Way.

Mechanically, he's a cleric of Urgathoa, limited to the domains she offers, to channeling negative energy, and subject to the same behavioral constraints. His power is granted by Urgathoa, and if she's not happy with him, it goes away. But he identifies himself, first and foremost, as a cleric of the Whispering Way.


Sounds like you want an Oracle not a cleric as he is not a cleric of a god at all. If your GM allows it cool, I would not as he clearly is not a cleric of Urgathoa.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The black raven wrote:

I feel that forcing a Cleric to follow a specific deity, which comes with its own divine baggage and most of all enemies, curtails the possibilities in roleplaying. More precisely, it completely forbids playing a Cleric of the whole pantheon who reveres and respects each and every god and gets his powers from that very respect and faith.

And such a caster knows very well where his powers come from, thus no "he is an Oracle" way around it.

Finally, I feel that forcing a Cleric to follow one of the gods of the Golarion pantheons is trying to shoehorn the player's concept in the necessarily limited number of options (gods) of domains, alignments and weapons of choice made available by the Paizo products. In essence, it forces all players of Clerics to bow to the preconceptions of the designers concerning how gods, domains, alignments and such must interact.

Though I can always houserule things in my campaigns, I would rather have the CRB stick with the more diversity trend rather than the other way around, as it is always easier to restrict than to expand.

I feel exactly the opposite. That's why house rules are so great.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To be clear: I am not making a rules argument, or talking about a character I intend to play. I am offering an entirely flavor-based interpretation of the plain meaning of what I have seen written in the sourcebooks.

My assertion is nothing more or less than this: you can play a cleric of a cause in Golarion, but he will be in all mechanical respects, identical to a cleric of a deity whose portfolio includes that cause.

A cleric of Diabolism receives his powers from Asmodeus, must select domains that Asmodeus offers, and must remain in Asmodeus' good graces to keep getting magic. But as far as he is concerned, he worships the entire hellish hierarchy.

A cleric in a rural town might honor and receive power from Erastil, but the townsfolk know him not as a priest of Erastil, but of the Green Faith. He still has to stay in Erastil's good graces, but the rituals he performs, the symbology employed at his shrine, all might be substantially different than what one would find in an official Church of Erastil.

A cleric of Abadar who follows the Prophecies of Kalistrade might well have little time for certain mainstream Abadaran practices, considering adherence to the tenets of the Prophecies the only true path to prosperity and Abadar's grace, that anything which contradicts the Prophecies is necessarily blasphemous. And so, he might well be known as a Prophet of Kalistrade rather than an Abadaran.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
black raven wrote:
Finally, I feel that forcing a Cleric to follow one of the gods of the Golarion pantheons is trying to shoehorn the player's concept in the necessarily limited number of options (gods) of domains, alignments and weapons of choice made available by the Paizo products. In essence, it forces all players of Clerics to bow to the preconceptions of the designers concerning how gods, domains, alignments and such must interact.

I don't understand this statement. If you don't want to play on Golarion there are plenty of other settings with their own pantheons to choose from. From Grayhawk to Greek, if you want other gods, use them.

If you aren't playing Pathfinder Society games, feel free to work with your GM to find a way to play the character you wish. James answers questions about how official Golarion works, but home games can tweak that as much as you like.

Liberty's Edge

deinol wrote:
black raven wrote:
Finally, I feel that forcing a Cleric to follow one of the gods of the Golarion pantheons is trying to shoehorn the player's concept in the necessarily limited number of options (gods) of domains, alignments and weapons of choice made available by the Paizo products. In essence, it forces all players of Clerics to bow to the preconceptions of the designers concerning how gods, domains, alignments and such must interact.
I don't understand this statement. If you don't want to play on Golarion there are plenty of other settings with their own pantheons to choose from. From Grayhawk to Greek, if you want other gods, use them.

An example of what I meant : if you want to have the Madness domain and are required to follow one of the gods from the CRB, then you have to follow Lamashtu. Hence, Madness domain implies Non-Good alignment for the Cleric.

Though the Separatist Archetype (from UM) offers a way around this, it does so at a significant cost. Also, fluff-wise, a Cleric of, say, Sarenrae who develops the Madness domain through the Separatist Archetype is story- and theology-wise completely different (because of his chosen god) from what a benevolent follower of Chaos with the same Madness domain would be.

At the moment, the latter example is quite RAW. But if Clerics have to choose a god, then you need to convince your GM to houserule the religious part of the world around it.

Similar problem if a Cleric wants to be proficient with the scimitar from the start without a feat-tax : he can only venerate Sarenrae.

Quote:
If you aren't playing Pathfinder Society games, feel free to work with your GM to find a way to play the character you wish. James answers questions about how official Golarion works, but home games can tweak that as much as you like.

Most GMs stick to the "official" (ie, printed, especially in the CRB) word as much as they can, unless they feel an important need to houserule. They are less likely to put the required efforts to design a custom element such as a new god/religion just to satisfy a player's wishes when they can forbid it outright because "it says so in the CRB".


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The black raven wrote:
Most GMs stick to the "official" (ie, printed, especially in the CRB) word as much as they can, unless they feel an important need to houserule. They are less likely to put the required efforts to design a custom element such as a new god/religion just to satisfy a player's wishes when they can forbid it outright because "it says so in the CRB".

And long may it be so. GMs have enough to do without needing to design custom elements just to satisfy players' requests. And most of the time that need not be done anyway.

If one of my players said to me "look, I want to play a cleric with the Madness domain, but I don't want to be a Cleric of Lamashtu," my first response would be "have a look at the other deities that offer the Madness domain, such as Sivanah or Azathoth, and see if they suit your purposes."

If none of those appealed to the player, I would say "well, why don't you work on creating a god and religion that you would like to follow? Send me the details and we'll work together on embedding it within the Golarion canon." Anything that came back along the lines of "I worship the god Awesomesauce who grants me proficiency with the greatsword and has as his domain spells mage armor, bull's strength, keen edge...and offers the domains of Madness, Strength, Weather, Knowledge and Glory," I would say "go back to the drawing board and think about the concept your god and religion represent, and then make the various elements consistent."

Or if the player just re-skinned Gorum and added the Madness domain to it.

I would probably even get a copy of (or suggest the player obtained a copy of) one of the Faiths of... books, and tell the player to go through it for ideas on how to present his/her religion and deity.

###

My point is, just as you are willing to assert that "Most GMs stick to the 'official' (ie, printed, especially in the CRB) word as much as they can", I'm willing to assert that "most cleric players who aren't able to find a god to follow among the multitude that have already been created are just powergaming".

The ones that aren't should be willing to and capable of creating their own deity that fits into the setting.

Liberty's Edge

cynarion wrote:

My point is, just as you are willing to assert that "Most GMs stick to the 'official' (ie, printed, especially in the CRB) word as much as they can", I'm willing to assert that "most cleric players who aren't able to find a god to follow among the multitude that have already been created are just powergaming".

The ones that aren't should be willing to and capable of creating their own deity that fits into the setting.

I like your approach (which is definitely not a knee-jerk "NO" to what does not follow the CRB). It does reward powergaming with style, which is the only worthy kind (if at all).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
The black raven wrote:
Most GMs stick to the "official" (ie, printed, especially in the CRB) word as much as they can, unless they feel an important need to houserule. They are less likely to put the required...

I guess I just don't play with that kind of GM. Although in my experience most players become enamored with a god and then go about picking domains and things. If I had someone who really wanted to play with the Madness domain or such, I would re-flavor Dionysus into a minor god of Golarion if I needed to.

If you really want to expand your domain choices in an "official" way, Gods of Magic has a number of minor gods for Golarion. In fact, I see Groetus, Gyronna, Haggakal, and Sivanah with Madness. There will also be new Golarion deities coming in the Tian Xia book later this year.


Regarding the guy playing the cleric in your game who seems to be making a character at odds with the rest of the group. I would be very concerned about this as a GM. I see my main job as GM to make sure everyone is having fun, the only real way to have bad fun is to be having your fun at the expense of the other players fun. The comments about this guy make me think that might be the road he is going down.

I would explain this to him and explain that while he has a very cool character concept it doesn't fit with this group so he will need to come up with one that does work with the group and story being told. It isn't mean to do this as it will make everyone have more fun in the long run (including him), though he may be resentful at first. Still... nip probs in the but early and you don't have to deal with things like him getting mad at the other players for killing his PC or him hindering them at every turn (things like the Pally can't hang with someone doing evil things like raising dead even if the caster retains his neutral alignment).

Sean Mahoney

Liberty's Edge

atheral wrote:
I fully expect the first time he creates a zombie or skeleton the paladin player will smite him anyways.

He should create undead out of love (not wanting to be separated from his loved ones) and/or to prevent unnecessary hurt/loss of life like raising a zombie to trigger all the traps or battle the monsters instead of PCs, or even worse innocent NPCs, having to risk their lives.

And of course he should only use corpses created by circumstances (ie downed in combat or through natural causes).

I am not sure the Paladin will insist on smiting him when good old Blasty, his faithful burning skeleton, saves yet another child from the inferno engulfing her home.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
But the concept of a cleric thinking they're worshiping Deity 1 when in fact they're actually getting spells from Deity 2 is relatively nonsensical in my mind.

You should totally google "Pelor of the Burning Hate."

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