Cavalier Tactitian ability; it seems to suck, what am I missing?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ultimate Combat shared this ability out via archetypes, so surely someone thinks they are useful... I just don't seem to be able to see it.

You have one teamwork feat that is restricted to ones accessible at level 1, and a second teamwork feat that you can get at level 9. Then at level 17 (assuming your game lasts that long) the heavens open and you can grant two of any teamwork feat you happen to know, not just the two bonus ones you'd got at level 1 and 9.

The teamwork feats seem highly situational, hard to combine with someone who's mounted and using a lance (i.e. not close to anyone but their mount, and since lances have reach, they don't threaten the same things), and generally impractical (I need to know there is a suprize round coming up so I can grant the Lookout feat ahead of time).

The only good feat I have seen requires BAB 10, and two other teamwork feats. So to be able to get this with the level 9 bonus feat, a cavalier would have to multiclass and pick up an extra useless teamwork feat which he can't grant until level 18 due to multiclassing.

What am I missing?

Anyone have stories about how their lance wielding cavalier has used their one or two teamwork feats to fabulous effect so the party was in awe of their tactical brilliance?

Eric

Shadow Lodge

Hi Eric!

Our group has a vanilla cavalier who can do massive damage on her horse, however she is rarely on it. She has used her Tactician ability to good use several times. Her TWF is the Precise strike feat. Now I'm a Master Summoner, so when I have a horde of my summons out, her giving them all +1d6 basically sneak attack is a really handy thing.

She's used it a few times on horseback as well. Don't forget that combat trained horses have three attacks of their own, so get a companion to flank with you on horseback and all three of your mount's attacks will get the +d6 too.

I agree there aren't many great teamwork feats, but seeing as you don't get a lot with the ability anyway, there's enough to work with it IMHO.


Eric Mason 37 wrote:

What am I missing?

Anyone have stories about how their lance wielding cavalier has used their one or two teamwork feats to fabulous effect so the party was in awe of their tactical brilliance?

Eric

I'm not sure what qualifies to you as a "good" teamwork feat, but since you've brought up wielding your lance, I'm guessing your ideas of good teamwork feats involve increasing the damage your cavalier would deal in combat?

I'm not really sure that's teamwork so much as ... "Hey everyone in the party, make me better."

I do think positioning makes teamwork feats incredibly situational. Most of them require you to be adjacent to the allies you wish to team up with, and at least in my group, people worry way too much about being next to one another lest they be caught in the dreaded "fireball formation".

But I would think most parties can benefit from a well-armored guy who can boost the casters' concentration checks, or add precision damage to their attacks, or boost CMB checks or CMD ... I really doubt most parties would, if presented with these abilities, shout, "No, go away!"

So ... I guess I'm saying I think teamwork feats are actually about ... teamwork. And helping out the other members of your party. I think it's a pretty bad class to play if you couldn't be less concerned with helping out other players' characters. For such players, the tactician ability definitely sucks.

Dark Archive

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

Ultimate Combat shared this ability out via archetypes, so surely someone thinks they are useful... I just don't seem to be able to see it.

You have one teamwork feat that is restricted to ones accessible at level 1, and a second teamwork feat that you can get at level 9. Then at level 17 (assuming your game lasts that long) the heavens open and you can grant two of any teamwork feat you happen to know, not just the two bonus ones you'd got at level 1 and 9.

The teamwork feats seem highly situational, hard to combine with someone who's mounted and using a lance (i.e. not close to anyone but their mount, and since lances have reach, they don't threaten the same things), and generally impractical (I need to know there is a suprize round coming up so I can grant the Lookout feat ahead of time).

The only good feat I have seen requires BAB 10, and two other teamwork feats. So to be able to get this with the level 9 bonus feat, a cavalier would have to multiclass and pick up an extra useless teamwork feat which he can't grant until level 18 due to multiclassing.

What am I missing?

Anyone have stories about how their lance wielding cavalier has used their one or two teamwork feats to fabulous effect so the party was in awe of their tactical brilliance?

Eric

I don't think you're missing much. I tend to think teamwork feats are pretty terrible for the most part.

The problem is partly with the way the game is designed. Combats are short and fast affairs. Losing 1 round to use Tactician is often a waste of a round. And then people have to stay next to each other to get the benefits, which means people are mustered to get hit by AoE spells and effects.

I think Teamwork feats should be really good, but even with UC released, most of them are only okay. And most of them require another good melee character. Well in lots of parties, if you are a cavalier, the tank quota has been filled, and everybody else plays something else instead.

With that new mounted charge teamwork feat, both (or all of you) of you needs to delay and go on the same action, and just stay in formation. It's not terrible actually, but it's still kind of hard to pull off since most players have extremely poor tactics and positioning.


Eric Mason 37 wrote:
The only good feat I have seen requires BAB 10, and two other teamwork feats. So to be able to get this with the level 9 bonus feat, a cavalier would have to multiclass and pick up an extra useless teamwork feat which he can't grant until level 18 due to multiclassing.

The most popular teamwork feat I've seen so far is the one that gives +1d6 pseudo-sneak-attack (Precise Strike). In fact, that's the only teamwork feat I've seen used so far.


BYC wrote:

I don't think you're missing much. I tend to think teamwork feats are pretty terrible for the most part.

The problem is partly with the way the game is designed. Combats are short and fast affairs. Losing 1 round to use Tactician is often a waste of a round. And then people have to stay next to each other to get the benefits, which means people are mustered to get hit by AoE spells and effects.

I think Teamwork feats should be really good, but even with UC released, most of them are only okay. And most of them require another good melee character. Well in lots of parties, if you are a cavalier, the tank quota has been filled, and everybody else plays something else instead.

Well, it's good to know I am not off in Lala Land :)

So would you say this is a class feature that the party has to build around (like having someone focused on summoning creatures which no one cares about getting nuked, and giving them the +d6 precision damage), and otherwise take an archetype that replaces tactician with something more useful?

Eric


hogarth wrote:
The most popular teamwork feat I've seen so far is the one that gives +1d6 pseudo-sneak-attack (Precise Strike). In fact, that's the only teamwork feat I've seen used so far.

Cool. Were these characters in melee heavy or summoning heavy parties?

Eric


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Hi Eric!

Our group has a vanilla cavalier who can do massive damage on her horse, however she is rarely on it. She has used her Tactician ability to good use several times. Her TWF is the Precise strike feat. Now I'm a Master Summoner, so when I have a horde of my summons out, her giving them all +1d6 basically sneak attack is a really handy thing.

She's used it a few times on horseback as well. Don't forget that combat trained horses have three attacks of their own, so get a companion to flank with you on horseback and all three of your mount's attacks will get the +d6 too.

I agree there aren't many great teamwork feats, but seeing as you don't get a lot with the ability anyway, there's enough to work with it IMHO.

How high level have you got so far?

If she and her mount are attacking, what weapon is she using out of curiosity?

I was planning on using a lance partially for the double damage on the charge, but also for the ability to keep my horse out of harm's way. At low levels, the horse seems that it will be fairly resilient, but at higher levels it could get seriously pasted.

I don't know if anyone in my party is going to be summoning creatures unfortunately. Thus far ranged attacks/blasting seems to be the theme of the day :( If I could be sure there would be a horde of little flankers I wouldn't feel bad about giving up a standard action.

Eric


Dumb Paladin wrote:


I'm not sure what qualifies to you as a "good" teamwork feat, but since you've brought up wielding your lance, I'm guessing your ideas of good teamwork feats involve increasing the damage your cavalier would deal in combat?

Not necessarily. Benefiting multiple characters in a noticeable/consistent way is closer to my definition.

Given my party currently is shaping up to be a bunch of scattered ranged combatants/nukers with someone as the sacrificial lamb, having the cavalier benefit too would bring it up to a potential two characters benefiting.

Dumb Paladin wrote:


I'm not really sure that's teamwork so much as ... "Hey everyone in the party, make me better."

Parties are generally small. So as soon as you start dropping people, the team size can shrink to zero awfully quickly considering how situational and restricted the feats are.

Dumb Paladin wrote:


I do think positioning makes teamwork feats incredibly situational. Most of them require you to be adjacent to the allies you wish to team up with, and at least in my group, people worry way too much about being next to one another lest they be caught in the dreaded "fireball formation".

Yeah. Most of the combats I've been in over the years have people spread out to avoid area of effect spells, or potential 5 foot steps into fresh foes.

Dumb Paladin wrote:

But I would think most parties can benefit from a well-armored guy who can boost the casters' concentration checks, or add precision damage to their attacks, or boost CMB checks or CMD ... I really doubt most parties would, if presented with these abilities, shout, "No, go away!"

You only get one feat to share at level 1, then a second alternative feat at level 9. And the ability doesn't last long. Do your casters actually take a lot of concentration checks? Ours rarely have. And do you have a lot of combat maneuvers come up? We didn't. The precision damage really needs melee people, and though this could change, my fellow players don't seem to be going that route.

Dumb Paladin wrote:


So ... I guess I'm saying I think teamwork feats are actually about ... teamwork. And helping out the other members of your party. I think it's a pretty bad class to play if you couldn't be less concerned with helping out other players' characters. For such players, the tactician ability definitely sucks.

I have no problem with the concept of helping, it just seems that the limited and situational nature of tactician means that the party would get more benefit if I did something like attack. Rather than grant an ability that isn't going to be used.

Eric

Dark Archive

Eric Mason 37 wrote:
BYC wrote:

I don't think you're missing much. I tend to think teamwork feats are pretty terrible for the most part.

The problem is partly with the way the game is designed. Combats are short and fast affairs. Losing 1 round to use Tactician is often a waste of a round. And then people have to stay next to each other to get the benefits, which means people are mustered to get hit by AoE spells and effects.

I think Teamwork feats should be really good, but even with UC released, most of them are only okay. And most of them require another good melee character. Well in lots of parties, if you are a cavalier, the tank quota has been filled, and everybody else plays something else instead.

Well, it's good to know I am not off in Lala Land :)

So would you say this is a class feature that the party has to build around (like having someone focused on summoning creatures which no one cares about getting nuked, and giving them the +d6 precision damage), and otherwise take an archetype that replaces tactician with something more useful?

Eric

I think it depends on your group's style and experience. If you have good tactical players, Tactician gets a lot better. Not to mention, you can actually plan with other players to pick up tactical feats separately from using Tactician.

Outflank and Precise Strike are actually good, though the pre-reqs are still an issue for some classes.

Shield Wall is good in theory, but in practice, it's not as useful due to the shield proficiency and that it needs a mini-phalanx to take advantage of.

Lookout and Duck And Cover are good, but can't really be Tactician-ed with.

Paired Opportunist is just difficult to pull off, so I think it's really bad.

Coodinated Defense and Maneuvers are okay, but I rather have the 1st 2 I listed.

Swap Places I personally like, but the problem is that it's just not as useful as doing more damage, so to give up a standard action to Tactician might not be useful.

Tandem Trip is pretty solid as well, but most of the rest of UC's teamwork feats are really hard to get into in the first place, and mostly for NPCs.

Apparently it's too broken to have something that grants a +1 tactical bonus to attack rolls when you and others with a teamwork feat threaten an opponent. Because that's something that's good and not too difficult to accomplish. And that's why I like Outflank and Precise Strike. Those 2 can actually be accomplished, and they are worth the cost of the standard action to activate. Most of rest...not so much.

Shadow Lodge

Eric Mason 37 wrote:


How high level have you got so far?

If she and her mount are attacking, what weapon is she using out of curiosity?

I was planning on using a lance partially for the double damage on the charge, but also for the ability to keep my horse out of harm's way. At low levels, the horse seems that it will be fairly resilient, but at higher levels it could get seriously pasted.

I don't know if anyone in my party is going to be summoning creatures unfortunately. Thus far ranged attacks/blasting seems to be the theme of the day :( If I could be sure there would be a horde of little flankers I wouldn't feel bad about giving up a standard action.

Eric

We just made 6th lvl. She uses a lance to charge, then changes to long sword when in close.

A horse at 6th lvl is 6HD ~40-50hp, 20 Str, 15 Dex, 17 Con. It has three primary attacks, bite +9 1d4+5 and 2 hooves +9 1d6+5. AC 20 + whatever armor you want to throw on him. Not too shabby in combat. Give him power attack, and use him to flank with you.

At 12th 10HD ~70-80 hp, 22 Str, 17 Dex, you've had 2 ability increases you could have added to dex and con to bump those. Attacks 1 @ +13 1d4+6, 2 @ +13 1D6+6. While not fantastic, still not bad, and if PA -2 att +4 dmg. Could have taken Imp Nat Attack to increase dmg dice by now. Ac at least 5 higher, so while again not great, still not bad and can hold its own fairly well.

Your allies might not benefit well from TWF, but you can build your mount to be able to use them with you, and if you stay mounted you're always adjacent with an ally then for the TWF that needs that. And if you keep your ride skill high, that gives your mount a HUGE AC in combat once per round.


Precise Strike, Outflank, and paired opportunist are great for Melee heavy parties.

The cavalier is based off of a cavalry officer, not just a cavalryman. He leads men into battle, commanding and inspiring them. FHe probably shouldn't be the "tank" and even thinking that is the case is a bit worrisome. How can you tank when you're moving around to charge on your mount?

Yes, it's situational. But when the party is working together and making sure to use these feats, Tactician is great. Outflank increases to hit by 2 and when someone crits, the ally gets an AoO. Two guys using a falchion and that? Ouch!


Eric Mason 37 wrote:
hogarth wrote:
The most popular teamwork feat I've seen so far is the one that gives +1d6 pseudo-sneak-attack (Precise Strike). In fact, that's the only teamwork feat I've seen used so far.

Cool. Were these characters in melee heavy or summoning heavy parties?

Eric

These were PFS characters (cavaliers); it's not generally known beforehand if your party will be melee heavy or not, since it varies from table to table. In both cases, the party ended up fairly melee heavy, I think (e.g. 3 or 4 melee characters out of a party of 6).

Dark Archive

Well first off I think there's a misunderstanding about the tactician ability. Yes it grants you one feat to share around but if you take other teamwork feats you can share those around too.
Now with that said add the teamwork feat Coordinated charge.

Quote:

When an ally with this feat charges a creature

that is no further away from you than your speed, you can,
as an immediate action, charge that creature. You must be
able to follow all of the normal charge rules.

This lets the Cavalier give the whole party (or army, there are no limits on the group size save distance from him) the Pounce ability.

As for the ability itself, it's designed to be a boost to martial characters. Give them an appreciable melee boost to take down a target quickly as a group.

Outflank is amazing for rogues & TWF's
Paired Opportunist is great if you have a trip/grapple/bullrusher in your group.
Duck and cover is great for mounted characters (mounts usually have a better reflex save then you do)
Broken Wing Gambit is nasty, every time your opponent attacks a party member they provoke an AoO.
Target of Opportunity free extra attack whenever a target is hit by a ranged attack from your ally

How can you call these bad feats when the cavalier throws them out for free to all of you?

Shadow Lodge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Well first off I think there's a misunderstanding about the tactician ability. Yes it grants you one feat to share around but if you take other teamwork feats you can share those around too.

No, actually you can't, you can only use the bonus feats you get from Tactician/Greater Tact.

APG wrote:


Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives
a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must
meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a
standard action, the cavalier can grant
this feat to all allies within 30 feet who
can see and hear him. Allies retain the
use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round
for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not
need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
The cavalier can use this ability once per day at
1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th
level and for every 5 levels thereafter.

Now, the exception is with Master Tactician. So at 17th lvl he can grant any TWF to allies, but until then he's stuck with the bonus feats he got with the class abilities.

Dark Archive

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Well first off I think there's a misunderstanding about the tactician ability. Yes it grants you one feat to share around but if you take other teamwork feats you can share those around too.

No, actually you can't, you can only use the bonus feats you get from Tactician/Greater Tact.

APG wrote:


Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives
a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must
meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a
standard action, the cavalier can grant
this feat to all allies within 30 feet who
can see and hear him. Allies retain the
use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round
for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not
need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
The cavalier can use this ability once per day at
1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th
level and for every 5 levels thereafter.
Now, the exception is with Master Tactician. So at 17th lvl he can grant any TWF to allies, but until then he's stuck with the bonus feats he got with the class abilities.

Mistype on my part, I meant to say the Practiced Tactician feat lets you grant any Teamwork Feat you have.

APG wrote:


Benefit: You can use your tactician ability to grant allies a teamwork feat one additional time per day.

This feat changes it from the feat to A feat, subtle but there.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Well first off I think there's a misunderstanding about the tactician ability. Yes it grants you one feat to share around but if you take other teamwork feats you can share those around too.

No, actually you can't, you can only use the bonus feats you get from Tactician/Greater Tact.

APG wrote:


Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives
a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must
meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a
standard action, the cavalier can grant
this feat to all allies within 30 feet who
can see and hear him. Allies retain the
use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round
for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not
need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
The cavalier can use this ability once per day at
1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th
level and for every 5 levels thereafter.
Now, the exception is with Master Tactician. So at 17th lvl he can grant any TWF to allies, but until then he's stuck with the bonus feats he got with the class abilities.

Mistype on my part, I meant to say the Practiced Tactician feat lets you grant any Teamwork Feat you have.

APG wrote:


Benefit: You can use your tactician ability to grant allies a teamwork feat one additional time per day.

This feat changes it from the feat to A feat, subtle but there.

I'm not sure that's intended.

Dark Archive

Cheapy wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Well first off I think there's a misunderstanding about the tactician ability. Yes it grants you one feat to share around but if you take other teamwork feats you can share those around too.

No, actually you can't, you can only use the bonus feats you get from Tactician/Greater Tact.

APG wrote:


Tactician (Ex): At 1st level, a cavalier receives
a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must
meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a
standard action, the cavalier can grant
this feat to all allies within 30 feet who
can see and hear him. Allies retain the
use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round
for every two levels the cavalier possesses. Allies do not
need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
The cavalier can use this ability once per day at
1st level, plus one additional time per day at 5th
level and for every 5 levels thereafter.
Now, the exception is with Master Tactician. So at 17th lvl he can grant any TWF to allies, but until then he's stuck with the bonus feats he got with the class abilities.

Mistype on my part, I meant to say the Practiced Tactician feat lets you grant any Teamwork Feat you have.

APG wrote:


Benefit: You can use your tactician ability to grant allies a teamwork feat one additional time per day.

This feat changes it from the feat to A feat, subtle but there.

I'm not sure that's intended.

Actually the way it is worded, it sounds like cavaliers can only grant these feats if they are bonus feats picked up by the Tactician tree. That's much worse than I thought originally. Is this right? I'm checking the errata.


Shake it Off is the best bonus feat to give out with Tactician.

Any time you're adjacent to another party member, you get +1 to all saves. Stacks up to +4.

Fantastic.


BYC wrote:

Actually the way it is worded, it sounds like cavaliers can only grant these feats if they are bonus feats picked up by the Tactician tree. That's much worse than I thought originally. Is this right? I'm checking the errata.

Yes, it's only ones they've selected from bonus feat.

Drill Instructor from the Strategist archetype is any teamwork feat you know though.

Dark Archive

Cheapy wrote:
BYC wrote:

Actually the way it is worded, it sounds like cavaliers can only grant these feats if they are bonus feats picked up by the Tactician tree. That's much worse than I thought originally. Is this right? I'm checking the errata.

Yes, it's only ones they've selected from bonus feat.

Drill Instructor from the Strategist archetype is any teamwork feat you know though.

Heh, cavaliers just went down another notch in my book. Good to know before I made any huge Tactician build however. 1 of my PFS characters grants Outflank with Tactician. Because he was 4 rogue before taking 1 cavalier. This definitely changes things, and whenever my next cavalier is built (without mount), it'll take this into account.

I dislike Drill Instructor because it seems kind of silly to be sitting outside the BBEG's lair going through battle plans for 10 minutes before charging through the door.


Everyone b&&+$es about the mount, saying 'what about when you enter the dungeon?

Well that's what Tactician is for.
As soon asyour are gonna kick in the door, grant everybody the extra 1d6 damage feat. If you are Sword/Shield TWF and your buddy is a TWF ranger, mobile fighter, TWF rogue etc it's even better because they get more attacks.

Or, if you took beastmaster archetype- select a wolf mount and grant paired Opportunists. If you take combat reflexes, the extra AOO's are awesome.

Outflank is nice- take it with a menacing weapon and you're rogue buddy will love you.

Coordinated Charge is freakin awesome, but a waste if you're melee buddy is a Pouncing Barb, Dawnflower Dervish or a Lion mount.

The feats themselves are great but you need to pick the right ones for you're party...


STR Ranger wrote:

Everyone b##&#es about the mount, saying 'what about when you enter the dungeon?

To be fair I haven't moaned about that. ;) I am completely fine with the idea that sometimes Ed the horse will stand guard at the entrance when I head into a kobold burrow or what have you.

STR Ranger wrote:


Well that's what Tactician is for.
As soon asyour are gonna kick in the door, grant everybody the extra 1d6 damage feat. If you are Sword/Shield TWF and your buddy is a TWF ranger, mobile fighter, TWF rogue etc it's even better because they get more attacks.

If you have a bunch of melee types in the party I can see precise strike being useful.

You are bringing up a case of a party specifically designed to take advantage of that teamwork feat with lots of TWFers. Some of us don't have the ability to jolly all the other players into specific builds ;)

I was thinking of just fighting with the lance on foot. I've never had the pleasure of using a reach weapon, and considering some of my wealth with be spent on my mount, only having to pay for one magic melee weapon has a certain appeal. (I'm also a historical fan of the second quarter of the 14th century in England, so a dismounted knight using his lance is really cool to me.)

STR Ranger wrote:


Or, if you took beastmaster archetype- select a wolf mount and grant paired Opportunists. If you take combat reflexes, the extra AOO's are awesome.

Trip doesn't cause attacks of opportunity in Pathfinder, you need the Greater Trip feat to do that. Your wolf can't ever get that feat because it would need int 13 to quality for combat expertise. I did look into it when I was first plotting out a mount :(

STR Ranger wrote:


Outflank is nice- take it with a menacing weapon and you're rogue buddy will love you.

Given our last campaign had one and a half rogues, I don't think I'll have any rogue buddies. ;) Currently I am looking at one other melee character, and then three stand back types.

STR Ranger wrote:


Coordinated Charge is freakin awesome, but a waste if you're melee buddy is a Pouncing Barb, Dawnflower Dervish or a Lion mount.

This is the feat I mentioned would require multi-classing and picking up an unusable teamwork feat to qualify for. It needs BAB 10, we get our second feat at BAB 9, and it needs you to have two teamwork feats, and we can't share teamwork feats that aren't granted by our tactician ability until Cavalier 17.

A real pity because it does look genuinely useful.

STR Ranger wrote:


The feats themselves are great but you need to pick the right ones for you're party...

I think you are half right. They are great for certain parties, but if you fall out of that subset, they become pretty useless because there isn't anything that can provide synergy.

I'm waiting now on some concrete/finalized characters out of my fellow players.

If things change and a bunch of melee oriented characters climb out of the woodwork, I will go for the Precise Strike, and Outflank combo. If it doesn't change, I think I may do the Emissary archetype and use the extra feat slot toward Antagonize so that I can bait enemies off our ranged characters when they get in trouble... With the added bonus that I can stab them for moving through my reach.

Eric


Ice Titan wrote:

Shake it Off is the best bonus feat to give out with Tactician.

Any time you're adjacent to another party member, you get +1 to all saves. Stacks up to +4.

Fantastic.

I might be able to see this if it were an immediate action even though it still assumes you're clustered together. However as a standard or swift action, it still seems very hard to get practical use out.

Eric


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


APG wrote:


Benefit: You can use your tactician ability to grant allies a teamwork feat one additional time per day.

This feat changes it from the feat to A feat, subtle but there.

It can't specify which feats because it changes at level 17, and the feat of granting an extra use has to work for all stages of the ability.

I think you're reading with too hopeful of an eye.

What you choose to house rule in your game is of course perfectly fine. :)

Eric


BYC wrote:
Apparently it's too broken to have something that grants a +1 tactical bonus to attack rolls when you and others with a teamwork feat threaten an opponent. Because that's something that's good and not too difficult to accomplish. And that's why I like Outflank and Precise Strike. Those 2 can actually be accomplished, and they are worth the cost of the standard action to activate. Most of rest...not so much.

Yes, I think you are right. If we get a bunch of non-ranged people and/or someone suddenly says, "Hey, summoning a bunch of monsters/animals would be cool for my character to do", I'll probably get those two feats.

Eric


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:


We just made 6th lvl. She uses a lance to charge, then changes to long sword when in close.

So she doesn't bother with Ride by Attack I take it?

I was debating waiting until 3rd level for that feat because encounters at level 1 and 2 tend to have fairly fragile, and ineffective opponents so the horse would be pretty safe. Then I could get Eye For Talent, which would give me a boost for the horse, and a handy + 2 on sense motive.

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:


A horse at 6th lvl is 6HD ~40-50hp, 20 Str, 15 Dex, 17 Con. It has three primary attacks, bite +9 1d4+5 and 2 hooves +9 1d6+5. AC 20 + whatever armor you want to throw on him. Not too shabby in combat. Give him power attack, and use him to flank with you.

Yes, at 6th level the horse is still in the range of a PC for hit points and AC. Starting to lag a bit, but if there was a lot of healing available I could see doing this if I couldn't use Ride by Attack. Otherwise it still seems better to be able to use the ride check to save them from getting hit.

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:


At 12th 10HD ~70-80 hp, 22 Str, 17 Dex, you've had 2 ability increases you could have added to dex and con to bump those. Attacks 1 @ +13 1d4+6, 2 @ +13 1D6+6. While not fantastic, still not bad, and if PA -2 att +4 dmg. Could have taken Imp Nat Attack to increase dmg dice by now. Ac at least 5 higher, so while again not great, still not bad and can hold its own fairly well.

I might be a bit of a pessimist when it comes to surviving melee. :) I have done a fair bit of tanking over the past decade playing 3.x games, and that seems very squishy at 12th level. Getting off the horse removes your ride check to save them from getting hit, and your (admittedly smaller) potential attack bonus for higher ground.

I can see it as a last resort, but the double or triple damage strafing run and distance from attackers seems much safer! :)

It seems like using an animal companion as a flanking partner is better for druids and rangers who have buffs to shore up their weaknesses.

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:


Your allies might not benefit well from TWF, but you can build your mount to be able to use them with you, and if you stay mounted you're always adjacent with an ally then for the TWF that needs that. And if you keep your ride skill high, that gives your mount a HUGE AC in combat once per round.

I think if I knew the campaign would wrap up around 12th level or so then the horse flanking buddy would probably have greater appeal in my view. As it is, that ride check for avoiding a hit seems more attractive than flanking.

I fully admit that I may just be to conservative/pessimistic when it comes to surviving in a melee. I was regularly taking 80 to 100 damage in fights at 12th level. :P

Thank you for the details. I will continue to think about them. Who knows, it may grow on me.

Eric

Shadow Lodge

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

So she doesn't bother with Ride by Attack I take it?

I was debating waiting until 3rd level for that feat because encounters at level 1 and 2 tend to have fairly fragile, and ineffective opponents so the horse would be pretty safe. Then I could get Eye For Talent, which would give me a boost for the horse, and a handy + 2 on sense motive.

Well, the problem with Ride by Attack, is the same with most mounted focused characters, most combats we're in don't have the open space for it. Usually you might say, well the DM should make encounters so the cavalier can use their abilities more, and I'd agree, but 1) we're playing Kingmaker AP and so far its been mostly exploring forested areas with some grassland and hills, but generally not a lot of space. 2) she's our main fighter (except for my summons) and 3) its the DM's pc, so he only has himself to blame.

But in your situation, it sounds like you're the only one in the group that is getting into melee. It seems to me awfully risky to be riding through and leaving your casters/ranged characters behind to fend for themselves while you wheel around for another run.


Eric Mason 37 wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

STR Ranger wrote:


Or, if you took beastmaster archetype- select a wolf mount and grant paired Opportunists. If you take combat reflexes, the extra AOO's are awesome.
Trip doesn't cause attacks of opportunity in Pathfinder, you need the Greater Trip feat to do that. Your wolf can't ever get that feat because it would need int 13 to quality for combat expertise. I did look into it when I was first plotting out a mount.

Being tripped doesn't provoke. Getting up does :)

An enemy on his back is -4 to AC while prone. He burns a move action to get up (still with negative 4, since AOO'S occur during the action and he's still considered prone). He provokes from both of you. You both hit him again (wolf can't triplock cause he's already got prone condition).

Leaves enemy with a standard action. He can:
1. Standard attack one of you, getting full attacked by both of you next round and possibly tripped again.
2. Move away, provoking for leaving a threatened square, eating 2 AOO and getting tripped again.

To help this, take Pin down which let's you stop his movt with an AOO or be order of the shield which gets a better version as a class ability.

There is a teamwork feat which grants +2 to CM for the wolf.

The advantage of Outflank is it grants AOO'S on Crits. Wield a Scimitar or Naodachi. The wolf uses the AOO to trip standing foes.

Take the Strategist Archetype and you can grant Paired Opportunists and Outflank early (costs a use of challenge)


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:


Well, the problem with Ride by Attack, is the same with most mounted focused characters, most combats we're in don't have the open space for it. Usually you might say, well the DM should make encounters so the cavalier can use their abilities more, and I'd agree, but 1) we're playing Kingmaker AP and so far its been mostly exploring forested areas with some grassland and hills, but generally not a lot of space. 2) she's our main fighter (except for my summons) and 3) its the DM's pc, so he only has himself to blame.

But in your situation, it sounds like you're the only one in the group that is getting into melee. It seems to me awfully risky to be riding through and leaving your casters/ranged characters behind to fend for themselves while you wheel around for another run.

King Maker is supposed to be the best AP for mounted characters as far as I have heard :(

So you've been what, effectively in a narrow dungeon with all the walls made out of bushes?

The is one sacrificial lamb character. So there is one tank. I don't know how sturdy a tank, but they will be the one stepping in, I would be harrying, and the others will be tanking us for not blocking lines of sight as they shoot arrows/rays, and throw things.

Eric


STR Ranger wrote:


Being tripped doesn't provoke. Getting up does :)

An enemy on his back is -4 to AC while prone. He burns a move action to get up (still with negative 4, since AOO'S occur during the action and he's still considered prone). He provokes from both of you. You both hit him again (wolf can't triplock cause he's already got prone condition).

Leaves enemy with a standard action. He can:
1. Standard attack one of you, getting full attacked by both of you next round and possibly tripped again.
2. Move away, provoking for leaving a threatened square, eating 2 AOO and getting tripped again.

Having played a heavy flail using tripper all through Council of Thieves, I found that my foes we frequently tailored to avoid giving attacks of opportunity when standing up, or attacked from prone. (Sure they have attack and AC penalties, but they live longer for not taking the attacks of opportunity.) So Greater Trip was typically the only attack of opportunity that happened.

STR Ranger wrote:


To help this, take Pin down which let's you stop his movt with an AOO or be order of the shield which gets a better version as a class ability.

They do have to provoke an AoO with their movement for this effect. Unfortunately as I pointed out above, my group is used to tripping, and would avoid triggering this.

That feat also only works if you threaten adjacent squares. This still requires not using a lance. Which sucks from my perspective.

STR Ranger wrote:


There is a teamwork feat which grants +2 to CM for the wolf.

If you both threaten the target. Never forget we're still limited to one feat at level 1 and the second feat at level 9.

STR Ranger wrote:


The advantage of Outflank is it grants AOO'S on Crits. Wield a Scimitar or Naodachi. The wolf uses the AOO to trip standing foes.

I'm afraid you're accidentally mixing up feats.

Outflank is + 4 instead of + 2 when flanking.

Seize the Moment (can get at level 9 if you pick up improved critical that level too) allows for for any ally who also threatens a target to get an AoO when you critical that target.

This is a place where my role-play won't let me do the optimal. This guy is a typical early 14th century European style knight, he's not going to have a scimitar or naodachi. He'd have a long sword, or a short sword as his arming sword. I fully admit to being a stick in the mud about keeping to a theme even when the rules have been designed to make atypical equipment the best. The concept of mixing cultures like that offends me more than I can politely convey ;)

Seize the Moment does sound nice, if a party has a number of melee people who use high crit range weapons. Pathfinder does seem very steeply slanted toward high crit range weapons unfortunately.

STR Ranger wrote:


Take the Strategist Archetype and you can grant Paired Opportunists and Outflank early (costs a use of challenge)

The Beast Rider and Strategist Archetypes can't be combined. They both replace Expert Trainer.

So to summarize, you are suggesting:
- Beast Rider (who gets a wolf once it is large and keeps it)
- Order of the Shield or take Combat Reflexes (needed for Seize the Moment) and Pin Down
- Using a weapon without reach, preferably with a high crit range
- Level 1 Paired Opportunist (for + 4 on AoO) or Coordinated Maneuvers (for + 2 on CMB)
- Level 9 Seize the Moment (for AoO)

As the best way to make use of the Tactician ability if one lacks a bunch of other melee types in one's party.

OK, and thank you :)

It doesn't seem like something I would want to play, but I suspect there are probably others who will find it great :)

Eric


Outflank does give an AoO on a crit. The table text doesn't mention it, but the feat itself does. I think Paired Opportunists has that kind of rider effect too.

The Exchange

Eric Mason 37 wrote:
What am I missing?

There's a lot you can get out of the Tactician class feature, if you consider the following:

1. The only real limit to the number of allies effected is the 30ft radius... and you can fit an awful lot of people into a 30ft radius (120 medium-sized people if you just go by fighting space on a battle grid and stick to one level plane).

2. You grant the teamwork Feat to these allies for the duration, you don't have to be part of them using it (so 120 people off flanking in 60 pairs of two, each gaining +1d6 damage per hit, for example).

3. It's a standard action startup but has a duration - it's more a pre-combat / first round buff than it is something to pull out in the middle of a fight.

Obviously, the more warm bodies on your side of the fight, the more value you can get out of this class feature. Leadership is your friend, once you qualify (assuming it isn't a 'no Leadership' type game you're in), and before that hirelings are cheap as chips (3sp per day per mercenary warrior) - with this class feature all those followers and / or hirelings can actually be some help!

If all else fails, remember you're a class with a full-powered animal companion as a class feature. If you're leaving your mount at the dungeon door, then you're missing a trick. If the druid can bring his critter with him, then so can you. It's still a full powered animal companion, even if you're not riding the thing. You should never lack for someone to 'team up' with if you bring your mount along with you.

As a 1st level Cavalier you can qualify for all the APG teamwork Feats apart from Allied Spellcaster and Outflank. Which to pick for your tactician feature depends on your play style.

Precise Strike is an obvious, damage dealing choice. Your horse's 3 attacks each getting an extra +1d6 damage, along with your own attacks, when you're dismounted and fighting as a team is very nice... and any other guys on your side who happen to be flanking opponents get that bonus too.

If you've hired a few mercenaries with tower shields (the Warrior NPC class gets the Tower Shield Proficiency Feat for free) then Shield Wall is an excellent choice. Not so much for the AC bonus (although it could help your hirelings not die), but for the last line of the Feat benefit...

APG page 169 wrote:
... If an adjacent ally with this feat uses a tower shield to grant total cover, you also benefit if an attack targeting you passes through the edge of the shield...

... Note that this application of the Feat doesn't require you to be using a shield as well, and since your use of the Tactician class feature granted all your mercenaries and all your party the Feat for the duration, you basically have mobile total cover to run around the battlefield for you.

If all else fails, Swap Places does a little more than the name suggests. You can trigger it as part of normal movement (as well as with 5ft steps), but you don't have to stop in the square your ally just vacated. So thanks to your Tactician class feature your whole side just got the ability to grant immediate action, no AoO, 5ft steps to anyone else on your team just by moving through them. Again, using a hireling or two with readied actions to run through your team's squares the moment you call for them to do so is a nice option, but even without hirelings your whole team gains quite the tactical movement boost from this one.

All in all I'd suggest that Tactician is, like a lot of the Cavalier's features, as good as you put in the effort to make it.


Eric Mason 37 wrote:
Ultimate Combat shared this ability out via archetypes, so surely someone thinks they are useful... I just don't seem to be able to see it.

I'm currently playing a Caviler/Inquisitor and my teamwork feats come in handy. With 3 levels of Inquisitor you get Solo tactics so that you can always used your TWFs. My party is very heavy on melee fighters so sharing out an extra d6 to all helps out quite a bit. I also took Outflank as to grant a +4 to hit rather than just a +2 to make up for the lack of party buffs.


Cheapy wrote:
Outflank does give an AoO on a crit. The table text doesn't mention it, but the feat itself does. I think Paired Opportunists has that kind of rider effect too.

Ah, so it does. My apologies for missing that. :)

Eric


In the game I play a cavalier there is also a monk and a ranger so Precise strike is useful. So I am happy with the ability for the most part.

It really depends what else is in your party. So do you know what everybody else is playing?

Also Swap Places(probably my next selected teamwork feat) is agreat one for narrow hallways.

Also...I don't get how having a reach weapon will make it hereder to flank...if anything it will make it easier...atleast that has been my my experience.


Wait a minute, are you saying you want to use a lance- ON FOOT?

What is your group gonna consist of?
Using a reach weapon does not make flanking harder.

Get back to me with who is in your party, what fighting styles they employ, and I'll see if i can come up with something that works for you.


BYC wrote:

I dislike Drill Instructor because it seems kind of silly to be sitting outside the BBEG's lair going through battle plans for 10 minutes before charging through the door.

I agree. Was it possibly written poorly? It currently seems like another use of the Tactician ability for a longer time at the cost of a challenge as well as opening up which teamwork feats are used. Those are nice benefits, but that drilling before charging in the door seems a little weak. What would make more sense is if you are supposed to Drill 10 min a day (for a week? month?), and then WHENEVER the Cavalier spends one of his challenge abilities, the allies get the team work ability for however long.

The point of a drill instructor is to keep practicing maneuvers over and over so that when the leader shouts the command word, the unit performs the maneuver on the spot. They don't cram for 10 minutes before battle and then get the benefit.

And the idea of practicing for 10 minutes before battle seems to lose sight of something most tacticians never underestimate--the element of surprise. For example:
Orc 1: You hear that outside?
Orc 2: Yeah, sounds like... militia exercises?
Orc 1: Shoot. You don't think they mean to attack us do you?
Orc 2: Yeah... Maybe we should wake up the ogre and break up their formation. How long have they been going?
Orc 1: About 5 minutes, I think.
Orc 2. Perfect.

And the Strategic Supremacy ability is useful only if the enemy has teamwork feats.

I REALLY wish the Strategist was more playable, but it seems impractical.


How useful tactician is seems to me to hinge on which order you are and party composition. I mean things like order of the dragons with it's act as one, and order of the seal sounds like it could benefit from tactics.


Uhm,
You do realize that practicing the assault is done in a lot of movies? Generally, you see them all sitting across the street, in the restaurant, putting the salt shakers in positions and using things off their plate as they walk through the plan. Or, in the war movies, everyone is clumped in bushes, looking at the target, and the guy in charge draws on the ground, puts some rocks in, and goes through the plan for everyone.
It may be called 'Drill Instructor' but it doesn't require you do parade drills in the BBEG's courtyard. 10 minutes of planning in the bushes with stick drawings in the dirt works just fine right before you charge the gate.


Eric Mason 37 wrote:

This is the feat I mentioned would require multi-classing and picking up an unusable teamwork feat to qualify for. It needs BAB 10, we get our second feat at BAB 9, and it needs you to have two teamwork feats, and we can't share teamwork feats that aren't granted by our tactician ability until Cavalier 17.

A real pity because it does look genuinely useful.

Simple work around.

Dip a full BAB class for 1 level before hitting that Cav level. Bam, you qualify for Coordinated Charge now, pick it up via Tactician, and you can share it.

Yes, it's dumb that the ideal Cavalier always dips out of class. Oh well.


ProfPotts wrote:
1. The only real limit to the number of allies effected is the 30ft radius... and you can fit an awful lot of people into a 30ft radius

Swarming Ratfolk cavalier archers for the win...

Shadow Lodge

For my 2 cp precise strike, outflank, and broken wing gambit are really where it is at. In our Jade regent game I was running a cavalier with 3 other rogues in the party who would wait for that tactician call and just dive on whatever was in front of them since precise strike was basically sneak attack +1. Broken wing gambit was something I was planning on picking up later as it could be called out and then when i engaged in melee all the rogues could just bounce on whomever took the bait and went for the AoO.


Eric Mason 37 wrote:
Given my party currently is shaping up to be a bunch of scattered ranged combatants/nukers with someone as the sacrificial lamb, having the cavalier benefit too would bring it up to a potential two characters benefiting.

I think that "Target of Opportunity" (Ultimate Combat, p.122) would be perfect for you. Yeah, I know, it has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite, but I think that this is the strongest teamwork feat out there.

Target of Opportunity

Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat makes a ranged attack and hits an opponent within 30 feet of you, you can spend an immediate action to make a single ranged attack against that opponent. Your ranged weapon must be in hand, loaded, and ready to be fired or thrown for you to make the ranged attack.

Keep in mind that if you or one of your allies succeed his ranged attack made as an immediate action, it triggers the "Target of Opportunity" teamwork feat once again for those who didn't spend their immediate action yet, so this can be very powerful in a party with 2 or more ranged characters. If you want to play a melee Cavalier, you can always wield a javelin in your off-hand just to benefit even more from this awesome teamwork feat.

Now, because of you, I want to play a Cavalier who is dual-wielding a javelin and a mace, just like this guy (the one on the left). OK, it's not really a javelin, but you get the picture. :)

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