Help me optimize / error check my synthesist 8 / magus 8 (holy hell it's complex!)


Advice


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just for s*!+s and giggles I decided to try out an extremely unusual multiclass combo. As it turns out, it worked out better than anticipated. Not all that min/maxed, but flavorful, fun, and totally viable for it's level.

Still, it is an EXTREMELY complex build and I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere. I would greatly appreciate it if you could help me check it for errors and maybe tighten up it up a bit along the way (optimize).

As with all the characters I create, it uses 25-point buy, 3/4 max variable in hit points, and gets crafting costs for any magic items it has item creation feats for (and could conceivably create). Sorry if this isn't to YOUR standards. I build characters for OUR games. Nevertheless, feel free to use or modify the character in any way (excepting the pictures which I do not have the rights to).

Now, without further ado, I introduce to you Haloy Wrang, Storm Dragon and Mistress of the Elements:

PC base form:

Character Portrait

Haloy Wrang
Female half-elf summoner 8/magus 8
CE Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +23
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Celestial, Common, Elven, Infernal, Sylvan

DEFENSE
AC
28, touch 18, flat-footed 25 (+8 armor, +5 deflection, +3 Dex, +2 natural); shielded meld
hp 146 (16 HD)
Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +17; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities shielded meld; Immune magical sleep

OFFENSE
Speed
30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee unarmed strike +19/+14/+9 (1d3+7 nonlethal, provokes)
Ranged by weapon +15
Special Attacks arcane accuracy +5, arcane pool (9 points, +2 bonus), summon monster IV
Summoner Spell-like Abilities (CL 8th; Concentration +12)
7/day – summon monster IV (one casting at a time, usable only without eidolon, 8 minute duration)
1/day – maker’s jump
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 8th; Concentration +13)
3rd-level (3/day) – fireball, lightning bolt, sleet storm
2nd-level (5/day) – acid arrow, alter self, mirror image (2), shatter
1st-level (6/day) – chill touch (2), magic missile (4)
0-level (at will) – dancing lights, ghost sound, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
Summoner Spells Known (CL 8th; Concentration +12 or +16 w/teleportation spells)
3rd-level (3/day) – dimension door, greater invisibility, heroism
2nd-level (5/day) – lesser evolution surgeAPG, resist energy, see invisibility, wind wall
1st-level (5/day) – ant haulAPG, feather fall, lesser rejuvenate eidolonAPG, unseen servant, ventriloquism
0-level (at will) – arcane mark, detect magic, guidance, light, mage hand, message

STATISTICS
Abilities
Str 16 (+3), Dex 16 (+3), Con 16 (+3), Int 20 (+5), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 18 (+4)
Base Atk +12; CMB +15; CMD 33
Feats Craft Wondrous ItemB, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, Dimensional Savant, Eldritch Claws, Echo Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (intimidateB), Spell Perfection (dimension door)
Skills Fly +22, Intimidate +29, Knowledge (arcana +24, the planes +24), Perception +23, Spellcraft +24, Use Magic Device +23; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
SQ adaptability, broad study (summoner), elf blood, elven immunities, fused eidolon, fused link, keen senses, knowledge pool (5 max), maker’s jump, medium armor, multi-talented (magus/summoner), spell recall
Combat Gear potions of cure light wounds (7); Other Gear +1 large adamantine nodachi, amulet of mighty fists +4 (doubles as amulet of natural armor +2), belt of physical perfection +6, boots of speed, bracers of armor +8, cloak of resistance +5, pearls of power (1st) (3), ring of protection +5, spellbook, spell component pouch, tender (1,880gp)
Spellbook 3rd—fireball, lightning bolt, major image, sleet storm; 2nd—acid arrow, alter self, glitterdust, mirror image, scorching ray, shatter; 1st—chill touch, color spray, enlarge person, feather fall, floating disk, grease, hydraulic push, magic missile, mount, shield, shocking grasp, true strike; 0—all
Encumbrance light 76 lb., medium 153 lb., heavy 230 lb.; Weight Carried 26 lb. (excluding tender)

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Arcane Accuracy (Su)
You can expend 1 point from your arcane pool as a swift action to grant yourself an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on all attack rolls until the end of your turn.
Arcane Pool (Su) You have a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that you can draw upon to fuel your powers and enhance your weapon. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to ½ your magus level (minimum 1) + your Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once each day when you prepare your spells. You can expend 1 point from your arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon you are holding a +2 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. This ability counts as the Arcane Strike feat for meeting any prerequisites. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves. These bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time you use this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than you. You can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If you use this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
Broad Study (Ex) You can use your spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the summoner class’ spell list. This does not allow you to cast arcane spells from that class’ spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.
Fused Eidolon You can summon the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with your own being. Instead of appearing as a separate creature next to you, the eidolon appears around you, so that you seem to be inside a translucent image of your eidolon. You direct all of the eidolon’s actions while fused, perceive through its senses, and speak through its voice, as though you two were now one creature. While fused with your eidolon, you use the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retain your own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). You gain the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane (but see fused link). You use the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gain the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. You also gain access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. You are still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as you. While fused, you count as both your original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for you. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but you are unaffected. Neither you nor your eidolon can be targeted separately, as you are fused into one creature. You and your eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with your eidolon, you can use all of your own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this ability functions as your normal eidolon ability (for example, you cannot use your summon monster ability while the eidolon is present or use armor effectively while fused).
Fused Link (Su) Whenever the temporary hit points from your eidolon would be reduced to 0, you can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of your own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to your eidolon (thus preventing the loss of your temporary hit points), preventing your eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.
Improved Spell Combat (Ex) You can cast spells and wield your weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, you must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, you can make all of your attacks with your melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If you cast this spell defensively, you can decide to take an additional penalty on your attack rolls, up to your Intelligence bonus, and add that amount +2 as a circumstance bonus on your concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. You can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if you have more than one attack, you cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Knowledge Pool (Su) When you prepare your magus spells, you can decide to expend 1 or more points from your arcane pool, up to your Intelligence bonus. For each point you expend, you can treat any one spell from the magus spell list as if it were in your spellbook and can prepare that spell as normal that day. If you do not cast spells prepared in this way before the next time you prepare spells, you lose those spells. You can also cast spells added in this way using your spell recall ability, but only until you prepare spells again.
Maker’s Jump (Sp) Whenever you are fused with your eidolon, you can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using your caster level. This ability only affects you and your eidolon. You can use this ability only once per day.
Medium Armor (Ex) You gain proficiency with medium armor. Additionally, you can cast magus spells while wearing medium armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a magus wearing heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
Shielded Meld (Ex) Whenever you are fused with your eidolon, you gain a +2 shield bonus to your Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on your saving throws.
Spell Recall (Su) With a swift action you can recall any single magus spell that you have already prepared and cast that day by expending a number of points from your arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The spell is prepared again, just as if it had not been cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Whenever you cast a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, you can deliver the spell through any weapon you are wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, you can make one free melee attack with your weapon (at your highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If you make this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Eidolon Base Form:

Eidolon Pic

Doom Squall
Biped Eidolon
CE Large outsider
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
Languages as summoner

DEFENSE
AC
20, touch 10, flat-footed 19 (+1 Dex, +10 natural, –1 size)
hp 63 (6 HD)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +6; +4 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities devotion, evasion, Immune acid, cold, electricity, fire

OFFENSE
Speed
30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee 4 claws +14 (1d6+9)
Ranged by weapon +6
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Abilities
Str 28 (+9), Dex 13 (+1), Con 17 (+3), Int 7 (–2), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 11 (+0)
Base Atk +6; CMB +16; CMD 27
Skills Fly +8, Intimidate +9, Perception +14, Sense Motive +11, Stealth –3
Feats Alertness, Eldritch Claws, Skill Focus (perception)
SQ evolutions, link, share spells
Encumbrance light 800 lb., medium 1,600 lb., heavy 2,400 lb.; Weight Carried 0 lb.

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Devotion (Ex)
Your eidolon receives a +4 morale bonus on Will saves versus enchantment spells and effects.
Evolutions clawsF (2), flight, immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire), large, limbs (armsF, legsF)
Evasion (Ex) When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, your eidolon takes no damage if she makes a successful saving throw.
Link You and your eidolon share a mental link that allows for communication across any distance (as long as you are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing you to give orders to your eidolon at any time. What’s more, magic items interfere with this link, so that you and your eidolon must share magic item slots. When both you and the eidolon are wearing a magic item in the same slot, your magic item continues to function while the eidolon’s becomes dormant. An eidolon must still have the appropriate magical item slot in order to be able to use of a given magic item.
Share Spells (Ex) You may cast a spell with a target of “You” on your eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on yourself. You may cast spells on your eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow your eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.



Eidolon/Synthesis hybrid form:

Hybrid Form Pic

Doom Squall/Haloy Wrang hybrid form
Female half-elf summoner 8/magus 8
CE Large humanoid (elf, human) or outsider
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +23
Languages as Haloy above

DEFENSE
AC
37, touch 15, flat-footed 36 (+8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 Dex, +12 natural, +2 shield, –1 size); shielded meld
hp 194 plus 63 temporary hp (12 HD)
Fort +21, Ref +15, Will +21; +6 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities devotion, evasion, Immune acid, cold, electricity, fire, magical sleep

OFFENSE
Speed
30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee +1 adamantine nodachi +24/+19/+14 (2d8+17/18-20) and 2 claws +18 (1d6+6) or
+2 keen adamantine nodachi +25/+20/+15 (2d8+18/15-20) and 2 claws +18 (1d6+12) with Arcane Pool, or
4 claws +23 (1d6+12)
Ranged by weapon +15
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks arcane accuracy +5, arcane pool (9 points, +2 bonus), summon monster IV
Spells and Spell-like Abilities as Haloy above

STATISTICS
Abilities
Str 34 (+12), Dex 19 (+4), Con 23 (+6), Int 20 (+5), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 18 (+4)
Base Atk +12; CMB +25; CMD 44
Feats as Haloy above
Skills Fly +21, Intimidate +29, Knowledge (arcana +24, the planes +24), Perception +23, Spellcraft +24, Use Magic Device +23; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
SQ as Doom Squall and Haloy above
Gear as Haloy above
Encumbrance light 1,864 lb., medium 3,728 lb., heavy 5,600 lb.; Weight Carried 10 lb.

SPECIAL ABILITIES
As Doom Squall and Haloy above


Well if you are starting out at this level then I think it would work. However, I have hard seeing this character progress to this level because you seem to be really relying heavily on your gear.

Other than that everything seems OK to me but then again I did not take a in depth look.


Broad Study doesn't strike me as worth it. There aren't really many offensive Summoner spells that are worth Spellstriking. Just use your summoner slots for buffs.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Broad Study doesn't strike me as worth it. There aren't really many offensive Summoner spells that are worth Spellstriking. Just use your summoner slots for buffs.

A lot of those buffs are worthwhile and can be applied as part of a full attack thanks to broad study. I'd say that's plenty worth it.

I'm thinking the character will buff with heroism and lesser evolutionary surge (extra arms) in advance. Then during combat activate her boots of speed for minor bonuses and an extra attack.

Wielding the nodachi in the new hands, she will have 8 attacks per round, possibly with extra spells and/or teleporting.


True, using them with Spell Combat does help action economy, even if you aren't getting direct damage out of the spell.

Silver Crusade

Ravingdork wrote:
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Broad Study doesn't strike me as worth it. There aren't really many offensive Summoner spells that are worth Spellstriking. Just use your summoner slots for buffs.
A lot of those buffs are worthwhile and can be applied as part of a full attack thanks to broad study. I'd say that's plenty worth it.

Hrm I notice the lack of barkskin or Evolution surge (Those 4 points can grant quite a bit on the fly ) also I can't tell where your traits are..(If you dont use them I apologize) that'd save money; Broad \Study is cool....Hrm I'll looks some more


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Endoralis wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Broad Study doesn't strike me as worth it. There aren't really many offensive Summoner spells that are worth Spellstriking. Just use your summoner slots for buffs.
A lot of those buffs are worthwhile and can be applied as part of a full attack thanks to broad study. I'd say that's plenty worth it.
Hrm I notice the lack of barkskin or Evolution surge (Those 4 points can grant quite a bit on the fly ) also I can't tell where your traits are..(If you dont use them I apologize) that'd save money; Broad \Study is cool....Hrm I'll looks some more

Traits? If you are referring to the evolutions, they are listed in the middle stat block under SPECIAL ABILITIES. She had 11 evolution points for level, plus an additional 4 for favored class bonuses.

Silver Crusade

No I mean Traits as in the half-feats


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Endoralis wrote:
No I mean Traits as in the half-feats

She has no traits.


There are a few worthwhile ones, like Magical Knack or any of the save-increasing ones.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Forgot to add the bonuses from the amulet of mighty fists +4. The hybrid form's attack lines should read...

Melee +1 adamantine nodachi +24/+19/+14 (2d8+17/18-20) and 2 claws +22 (1d6+10) or
+2 keen adamantine nodachi +25/+20/+15 (2d8+18/15-20) and 2 claws +22 (1d6+16) with Arcane Pool, or
4 claws +27 (1d6+16)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Found another error. The fused form should read "hp 194 plus 81 temporary hp (12 HD)."


Looks good, wish I could see your direct eidolon evolutions in simpler setup to check them properly.

FYI be sure to use aspect and greater aspect when/if you get to those levels in synthesist, a really no brain-er, as they work all the time, including when fused with your eidolon still counting as evolutions.

my build:
Yeah I just made a preliminary eidolon evolution and feat build. If you could check mine and tell me what you think please.

Link


To Start: I think you have too many evolution points.

As an 8th Level Summoner, you should have 11 evolution points.

Presuming you're taking the half elf racial bonus, you could have another 2 (1/4 of a point every level x8 = 2).

If I am reading the write ups right, it looks like you've purchased:
-Claws (1 point)
-Flight (2 points)
-Immunity (x4) (2 points each, or 8 total)
-Large (4 points)
Which Totals out to 15, when you should only have 13. This isn't exactly hard to fix, though... you just need to lose two points somewhere.

Next Up: I think you've misunderstood how the Synthesist's Eidolon works. I say this because you've given your Eidolon skills and Feats. In the Fused eidolon section of the synthesist description, it says that a synthesist's eidolon "Has no feats or skills of its own." Its even in the writeup you pasted under special abilities, so I'm guessing you just missed it (not hard to do, even in the books it is literally a single sentance in the middle of a paragraph about only vaguely related material).

Sadly, this means Eldritch claws, Alertness, and Skill focus Perception are all going to have to go. Also all the skills that you've allocated for the Eidolon.

Beyond that, it looks good to my eye. I admit that I am not particularly knowledgeable about the magus, however.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DreamAtelier wrote:

To Start: I think you have too many evolution points.

As an 8th Level Summoner, you should have 11 evolution points.

Presuming you're taking the half elf racial bonus, you could have another 2 (1/4 of a point every level x8 = 2).

If I am reading the write ups right, it looks like you've purchased:
-Claws (1 point)
-Flight (2 points)
-Immunity (x4) (2 points each, or 8 total)
-Large (4 points)
Which Totals out to 15, when you should only have 13. This isn't exactly hard to fix, though... you just need to lose two points somewhere.

Next Up: I think you've misunderstood how the Synthesist's Eidolon works. I say this because you've given your Eidolon skills and Feats. In the Fused eidolon section of the synthesist description, it says that a synthesist's eidolon "Has no feats or skills of its own." Its even in the writeup you pasted under special abilities, so I'm guessing you just missed it (not hard to do, even in the books it is literally a single sentance in the middle of a paragraph about only vaguely related material).

Sadly, this means Eldritch claws, Alertness, and Skill focus Perception are all going to have to go. Also all the skills that you've allocated for the Eidolon.

Beyond that, it looks good to my eye. I admit that I am not particularly knowledgeable about the magus, however.

All of Haloy's class levels count towards her favored class bonus since she is a half elf and has two favored classes. Therefore she gets 4 bonus evolution points, not 2.

I know full well that synthesist eidolons don't get feats or skills. I included them anyways for completeness' sake (since she may call her eidolon to the battlefield via the summon eidolon spell or eventually reach 16th-level of summoner). The feats and skills shown are not reflected in any way in the fused form stat block.

Thank you very much for checking. Please let me know if you see anything else amiss.


Ravingdork wrote:
DreamAtelier wrote:

To Start: I think you have too many evolution points.

As an 8th Level Summoner, you should have 11 evolution points.

Presuming you're taking the half elf racial bonus, you could have another 2 (1/4 of a point every level x8 = 2).

If I am reading the write ups right, it looks like you've purchased:
-Claws (1 point)
-Flight (2 points)
-Immunity (x4) (2 points each, or 8 total)
-Large (4 points)
Which Totals out to 15, when you should only have 13. This isn't exactly hard to fix, though... you just need to lose two points somewhere.

Next Up: I think you've misunderstood how the Synthesist's Eidolon works. I say this because you've given your Eidolon skills and Feats. In the Fused eidolon section of the synthesist description, it says that a synthesist's eidolon "Has no feats or skills of its own." Its even in the writeup you pasted under special abilities, so I'm guessing you just missed it (not hard to do, even in the books it is literally a single sentance in the middle of a paragraph about only vaguely related material).

Sadly, this means Eldritch claws, Alertness, and Skill focus Perception are all going to have to go. Also all the skills that you've allocated for the Eidolon.

Beyond that, it looks good to my eye. I admit that I am not particularly knowledgeable about the magus, however.

All of Haloy's class levels count towards her favored class bonus since she is a half elf and has two favored classes. Therefore she gets 4 bonus evolution points, not 2.

I know full well that synthesist eidolons don't get feats or skills. I included them anyways for completeness' sake (since she may call her eidolon to the battlefield via the summon eidolon spell or eventually reach 16th-level of summoner). The feats and skills shown are not reflected in any way in the fused form stat block.

Thank you very much for checking. Please let me know if you see anything else amiss.

Ahh, I got confused about the feats because Eldritch claws shows up on her base form block, which is supposed to be the same block as used in the fused forms. I'm not sure how her base form would qualify for it, as written, unless your group allows unarmed attacks that deal non-lethal damage to qualify as natural weapons for the purposes of the pre-requisite. I know my table does not, but if yours does, then carry on.

However, I have to disagree with your reading on the favored class bonus. A specific favored class bonus is, to my understanding, only gained upon taking a level in that clase. Generically, this would not matter, since the option was between hit points and skill points, and so, if you were a half elf with two favored classes, as long as you were only taking levels in those favored classes, you were always gaining one of the same bonuses.

However, when you start talking about alternate racial bonuses for a favored class, you can only take the bonus when gaining a level in that class. Thus, half her favored class bonuses have to come from the levels she has taken in magus, and could not be applied towards granting her the bonus she'd have gotten if she'd been a summoner.


Ravingdork wrote:
Found another error. The fused form should read "hp 194 plus 81 temporary hp (12 HD)."

I don't know where you're getting 12 HD from, or 81 temporary HP.

You're a level 8 Synth/8 Magus. That's 16 HD for you.

You're a level 8 synthesist. That's 6 HD for your eidolon. Its HP/yore temporary HP should be 6*(5.5+6)=69 (unless you're actually rolling its HD).


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Ravingdork wrote:


All of Haloy's class levels count towards her favored class bonus since she is a half elf and has two favored classes. Therefore she gets 4 bonus evolution points, not 2.

No, you can only take class-specific alternate favored class bonuses when you take levels in that class. When you're leveling in magus, you'd be able to take either a HP, a skill point, or whatever magus alternate bonuses there are. You can't only take the summoner alternate favored class bonus for levels that you put into summoner.

Edit: it looks like this isn't stated in the rules anywhere, but come on. I'd probably at least ask for your GM to rule on it.


Omelite wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


All of Haloy's class levels count towards her favored class bonus since she is a half elf and has two favored classes. Therefore she gets 4 bonus evolution points, not 2.

No, you can only take class-specific alternate favored class bonuses when you take levels in that class. When you're leveling in magus, you'd be able to take either a HP, a skill point, or whatever magus alternate bonuses there are. You can't only take the summoner alternate favored class bonus for levels that you put into summoner.

Edit: it looks like this isn't stated in the rules anywhere, but come on. I'd probably at least ask for your GM to rule on it.

I agree with DreamAtelier and Omelite on this one. Favored class bonus are class level specific not character level specific.

Liberty's Edge

ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Omelite wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


All of Haloy's class levels count towards her favored class bonus since she is a half elf and has two favored classes. Therefore she gets 4 bonus evolution points, not 2.

No, you can only take class-specific alternate favored class bonuses when you take levels in that class. When you're leveling in magus, you'd be able to take either a HP, a skill point, or whatever magus alternate bonuses there are. You can't only take the summoner alternate favored class bonus for levels that you put into summoner.

Edit: it looks like this isn't stated in the rules anywhere, but come on. I'd probably at least ask for your GM to rule on it.

I agree with DreamAtelier and Omelite on this one. Favored class bonus are class level specific not character level specific.

+1


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Omelite wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Found another error. The fused form should read "hp 194 plus 81 temporary hp (12 HD)."

I don't know where you're getting 12 HD from, or 81 temporary HP.

You're a level 8 Synth/8 Magus. That's 16 HD for you.

You're a level 8 synthesist. That's 6 HD for your eidolon. Its HP/yore temporary HP should be 6*(5.5+6)=69 (unless you're actually rolling its HD).

You are quite right about the HD. Not sure what I was thinking when I wrote "12." I've fixed it on my end.

As per the high hp, as I said in the OP, I've used 75% of the max variable (round up), not the average. That means 7.5 per HD of the eidolon rather than 5.5.

It's just how we roll in our groups with high level pre-mades since our games are usually pretty difficult. :P

So the fused forms hit points are...

08 for first class level
90 for the latter 15 class levels (6 x 15)
96 for the high constitution score (6 x 16)
194 total hp

The eidolon only has 6 HD, but has d10s. His temp hp (while fused) are...

45 for racial HD (7.5 x 6); As far as I know, eidolons don't get max at 1st-level.
36 for high constitution score (6 x 6)
81 total temp hp

So the fused form has 194 hp and 81 temp hp (or 202 and 81, see below).

ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Omelite wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


All of Haloy's class levels count towards her favored class bonus since she is a half elf and has two favored classes. Therefore she gets 4 bonus evolution points, not 2.

No, you can only take class-specific alternate favored class bonuses when you take levels in that class. When you're leveling in magus, you'd be able to take either a HP, a skill point, or whatever magus alternate bonuses there are. You can't only take the summoner alternate favored class bonus for levels that you put into summoner.

Edit: it looks like this isn't stated in the rules anywhere, but come on. I'd probably at least ask for your GM to rule on it.

I agree with DreamAtelier and Omelite on this one. Favored class bonus are class level specific not character level specific.

As Omelite said, it's not stated in the rules anywhere. As far as I can see I am following them just fine.

Any time you take a level in your favored class you get to choose 1 hp or 1 skill rank. Since Haloy is a half-elf summoner as well, however, she gets a 3rd option, adding 1/4 of an evolution point.

Therefore, every time she takes a level in a favored class (of which she has two) she can add 1 hp, 1 skill rank, or 1/4 of an evolution point.

I understand your interpretation, but I fail to see where I'm breaking any rules.

If a GM disagreed with me on the matter, however, I would drop the acid and cold immunity evolutions and replace them with an additional +40 feet of fly speed. That would put it at 13 evolution points. Then I would add +8 hp to the character.

Just for fun though, I challenge you to find in the rules where it states that the bonuses are based off of class level rather than character level. As far as I can tell, if you have levels in X, you can qualify for Y, even if you aren't taking levels in X at the time you are picking up Y.

Since it was brought up, I double-checked the rules on the matter (in the APG and Core book under favored classes) and couldn't find anything to refute my interpretation, but it was early morning, so it's possible I overlooked something. I'm eager for you to (with facts) show me I'm wrong.

Please let me know if you find anything else that appears off.


RAW, you can only use multitalented to get +1 HP or +1 Skill point when leveling up in your favored class. ;)

Also, the PRD says this about racial favored class options:

PRD wrote:
This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them.

This clearly states that the options for a race's favored class only work when you gain levels in that favored class.

There's no text stating or even implying you can take the favored class bonus for a class that you didn't level in.

Just because my dwarven fighter took Oracle as his favored class, doesn't mean he can take the dwarven oracle's favored class bonus four times to get exotic weapon proficiency.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
PRD wrote:
This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them.
This clearly states that the options for a race's favored class only work when you gain levels in that favored class.

Clearly states? Where? It doesn't refute my interpretation at all. It is merely clarifying that you can choose among your list of options at any given level (see my example below).

Cheapy wrote:
There's no text stating or even implying you can take the favored class bonus for a class that you didn't level in.

There's no text saying the reverse either. If that's all you got, then I guess we are at an impasse.

Cheapy wrote:
Just because my dwarven fighter took Oracle as his favored class, doesn't mean he can take the dwarven oracle's favored class bonus four times to get exotic weapon proficiency.

That's correct. If he has no levels in oracle, he can't take the oracle class benefits. Even if he did have a single level in oracle, the point would be moot (even with my interpretation) as he can only ever have one favored class, unlike humans and half-elves. A dwarf fighter 19/oracle 1 would either choose fighter as his favored class (and benefit from 19 levels) or he would choose oracle as his favored class and benefit from 1 level.

My interpretation is a corner case, to say the least, which is why it isn't so clear in the rules I'm guessing. If, somehow, the above dwarf had BOTH fighter AND oracle as his favored classes, then he would get 20 levels worth of benefits (hp, skill ranks, fighter bonuses, or oracle bonuses) as he saw fit. The latter favored class options get added on to his list of options the moment he takes a level of fighter or oracle, respectively, and he can from then on select from those options regardless of what later favored levels he takes.

If this isn't the way it was meant to work, than the developers need to make it more clear (which we can help them do by hitting the FAQ button).


Ravingdork wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
PRD wrote:
This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them.
This clearly states that the options for a race's favored class only work when you gain levels in that favored class.

Clearly states? Where? It doesn't refute my interpretation at all.

When you gain levels in Magus, you aren't gaining levels in Synthesist.

Half-elves have two favored classes. They don't have one favored class that counts as both. Your interpretation requires them to have one favored class that counts as both.

Also, there are no rules that say straight Fighters can't cast time stop, but from context, it's pretty clear they can't. ;)

Sovereign Court

I have notice 1 thing that may be incorrect. According to the SRD, Synthesist states the following

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.

According to this while fused you only get you eidolons BAB and you do not add any other totals to it. while you totals from all your classes is +12, the second you fuse you are dropped down to +6 (assumably beacause you eidolon is not as ex as you are).So the +12 total on your fused form should be +6


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kreave wrote:

I have notice 1 thing that may be incorrect. According to the SRD, Synthesist states the following

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.

According to this while fused you only get you eidolons BAB and you do not add any other totals to it. while you totals from all your classes is +12, the second you fuse you are dropped down to +6 (assumably beacause you eidolon is not as ex as you are).So the +12 total on your fused form should be +6

This has been clarified in the FAQ here. The eidolon BAB only replaces the BAB from the Summoner levels.

Since an outsider with 6 HD and a summoner with 8 levels both have BAB 6, the total BAB (12) remains the same.


Kreave wrote:

I have notice 1 thing that may be incorrect. According to the SRD, Synthesist states the following

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.

According to this while fused you only get you eidolons BAB and you do not add any other totals to it. while you totals from all your classes is +12, the second you fuse you are dropped down to +6 (assumably beacause you eidolon is not as ex as you are).So the +12 total on your fused form should be +6

This was clarified in the FAQ.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I spent an hour last night working this character through some combats from "Academy of Secrets", figuring that a single 16th-level character ought to be able to handle encounters for a team of four 13th-level characters. It got eaten alive every time.

Single-class 16th-level casters are throwing around 8th-level spells.
Single-class melee classes are doing all sorts of damage with special effects.

The summoner and magus are both hybrid classes, trading specialization for variety. Worse, you've only taken the first eight levels in each, and levels 9-16 of Magus (15d6 fire snake, and then elemental body III) would be cooler than levels 1-8 of Summoner. Vice versa, levels 9-16 of Summoner (Summon Monster VIII, binding, and maze, an Eidolon with SR 27) would be cooler than levels 1-8 of Magus.

I'll bet it's a fun character to play, but it can't stand up against a marut, a phoenix (greater dispel magic at will hoses the Eidolon)or an ancient white dragon, all creatures of commensurate CR.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
When you gain levels in Magus, you aren't gaining levels in Synthesist.

I'm beginning to think you aren't fully understanding my interpretation. I'm fully aware that you aren't gaining levels in Magus when gaining level in synthesis. However, provided that both are favored classes and I have levels in each, this DOESN'T MATTER according to my interpretation.

Cheapy wrote:
Half-elves have two favored classes. They don't have one favored class that counts as both. Your interpretation requires them to have one favored class that counts as both.

Huh? Me thinks you are misunderstanding me.

Cheapy wrote:
Also, there are no rules that say straight Fighters can't cast time stop, but from context, it's pretty clear they can't. ;)

That's not what I'm saying at all. Stop putting words in my mouth and trying to make me look like a munchkin cheeser.

Chris Mortika wrote:

I spent an hour last night working this character through some combats from "Academy of Secrets", figuring that a single 16th-level character ought to be able to handle encounters for a team of four 13th-level characters. It got eaten alive every time.

Single-class 16th-level casters are throwing around 8th-level spells.
Single-class melee classes are doing all sorts of damage with special effects.

The summoner and magus are both hybrid classes, trading specialization for variety. Worse, you've only taken the first eight levels in each, and levels 9-16 of Magus (15d6 fire snake, and then elemental body III) would be cooler than levels 1-8 of Summoner. Vice versa, levels 9-16 of Summoner (Summon Monster VIII, binding, and maze, an Eidolon with SR 27) would be cooler than levels 1-8 of Magus.

I'll bet it's a fun character to play, but it can't stand up against a marut, a phoenix (greater dispel magic at will hoses the Eidolon)or an ancient white dragon, all creatures of commensurate CR.

I don't recall asking people to negatively criticize the character. Contribute to making it better or go home.

Also, unless summoned via spell, greater dispel magic has no effect on the eidolon whatsoever.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
I don't recall asking people to negatively criticize the character. Contribute to making it better or go home.

My apologies. I had understood you were looking for help optimizing the character.

As it turns out, it's optimized beautifully, and holds its own next to other characters of the same level. Nice job.

Sovereign Court

thank you for replying quickly cheapy and dork, i ran into that problem trying to make a character its good to know it was fixed, now i can make my character.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I don't recall asking people to negatively criticize the character. Contribute to making it better or go home.

My apologies. I had understood you were looking for help optimizing the character.

As it turns out, it's optimized beautifully, and holds its own next to other characters of the same level. Nice job.

It's possible to recommend certain optimization options without dismissing the character altogether.

Also, no 16th-level character is going to survive against four 13th-level characters. Economy of actions is just too much against him. Bad playtest all around.

Put him in a party of three other 16th-level characters and pit them against a couple of CR 15, 16, and 17 encounters. See how they hold up in a real adventure scenario. Does the summoner/magus contribute? Or is he dead weight?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Got some friendly gents FROM THIS WONDERFUL THREAD to create a new character portrait for the fused form.

Here it is for your viewing pleasure.


Isn't your interpretation that since you have two favored classes, as long as you level up in one of them, you can select either favored class bonus?

As an example of what I think your interpretation is, say PF used the old 1/2 HD max for non-class skills system, but also the +1 HP / +1 Skill point favored class system. You have a half-elf fighter 10 / rogue 1. Those are your favored classes. You level up in fighter, and for your favored class bonus, you put 1 rank into Acrobatics, coming from your Rogue levels. This is despite acrobatics being a cross-class skill for Fighters. In my interpretation of the rules, you'd get half a rank to add to acrobatics, since it's a cross-class.

Is that correct?

That to me says that you think that you technically have only one favored class but it's actually two favored classes. This would mean you could select from either class's favored class bonus no matter which class you leveled up in.

My point with the fighter / time stop is to say that just because the rules doesn't specifically say you can or can not do something, doesn't mean you can do it. You need to look at the context and intent. Favored class options are meant to reward certain race / class combinations gaining levels in the class there's an option for.

All I see happening in your interpretation is that you're taking a favored class bonus for a class you didn't just level up in. The only difference I see between this and a dwarven fighter with favored class oracle taking oracle bonuses is that the magus in your character is also a favored class. But you still aren't taking levels in it!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

Isn't your interpretation that since you have two favored classes, as long as you level up in one of them, you can select either favored class bonus?

As an example of what I think your interpretation is, say PF used the old 1/2 HD max for non-class skills system, but also the +1 HP / +1 Skill point favored class system. You have a half-elf fighter 10 / rogue 1. Those are your favored classes. You level up in fighter, and for your favored class bonus, you put 1 rank into Acrobatics, coming from your Rogue levels. This is despite acrobatics being a cross-class skill for Fighters. In my interpretation of the rules, you'd get half a rank to add to acrobatics, since it's a cross-class.

Is that correct?

That to me says that you think that you technically have only one favored class but it's actually two favored classes. This would mean you could select from either class's favored class bonus no matter which class you leveled up in.

My point with the fighter / time stop is to say that just because the rules doesn't specifically say you can or can not do something, doesn't mean you can do it. You need to look at the context and intent. Favored class options are meant to reward certain race / class combinations gaining levels in the class there's an option for.

All I see happening in your interpretation is that you're taking a favored class bonus for a class you didn't just level up in. The only difference I see between this and a dwarven fighter with favored class oracle taking oracle bonuses is that the magus in your character is also a favored class. But you still aren't taking levels in it!

I don't fully understand your example, but I think we are closer to being on the same page now (even though it seems we disagree).


10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

I can not prove that my interpretation is more correct than yours, as nothing explict has been said supporting it.

Similarly, You can not prove yours to be more correct than mine, since nothing explicit has been written making it true.

We are both relying upon our prospective interpretations of the rule. Mine is that you can only gain a favored class bonus (specific or generic) when taking a level in that particular favored class.

Yours is that you can gain any favored class bonus you qualify for (by favoring that class) whenever you gain a level in that, or any other, favored class.

I suppose the most important interpretation on this point is your DM's interpretation of how that works, and I'll trust that you understand his better than I myself do.

That having been said, I'll mark the question of which of these interpretation is accurate as a FAQ candidate, in hopes someone clears it up.


DreamAtelier wrote:

I can not prove that my interpretation is more correct than yours, as nothing explict has been said supporting it.

Similarly, You can not prove yours to be more correct than mine, since nothing explicit has been written making it true.

We are both relying upon our prospective interpretations of the rule. Mine is that you can only gain a favored class bonus (specific or generic) when taking a level in that particular favored class.

Yours is that you can gain any favored class bonus you qualify for (by favoring that class) whenever you gain a level in that, or any other, favored class.

I suppose the most important interpretation on this point is your DM's interpretation of how that works, and I'll trust that you understand his better than I myself do.

That having been said, I'll mark the question of which of these interpretation is accurate as a FAQ candidate, in hopes someone clears it up.

Flagged FAQ


Would this help, from Favored Class Options for half-elf.
Hope it's allowed to paste this tho...

Favored class:
Instead of receiving an additional skill rank or hit point whenever she gains a level in a favored class, half-elves
have the option of choosing from a number of other bonuses, depending upon their favored class.

It's not as specific as it could be, but it says depends on the class picked. The fact alone that you could go Rogue9/fighter1 and gain +10 bonus to CMD to resist a Disarm or overrun from the fighter Favored, while it being just a dip seems kinda wrong.

Or at least not written as intended.


Ravingdork wrote:


I know full well that synthesist eidolons don't get feats or skills. I included them anyways for completeness' sake (since she may call her eidolon to the battlefield via the summon eidolon spell or eventually reach 16th-level of summoner). The feats and skills shown are not reflected in any way in the fused form stat block.

Is that how the Summon Eidolon spell works for a synthesist? I always assumed the spell would fuse you with your eidolon. Mine use it as an emergency "call armor" kind of spell. Plus I picked Augment Summoning for a quick stat boost (I figure when I need the summon eidolon spell, I really need the summon eidolon spell. :) ).

Maybe I've been doing it wrong though.


Slaunyeh wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


I know full well that synthesist eidolons don't get feats or skills. I included them anyways for completeness' sake (since she may call her eidolon to the battlefield via the summon eidolon spell or eventually reach 16th-level of summoner). The feats and skills shown are not reflected in any way in the fused form stat block.

Is that how the Summon Eidolon spell works for a synthesist? I always assumed the spell would fuse you with your eidolon. Mine use it as an emergency "call armor" kind of spell. Plus I picked Augment Summoning for a quick stat boost (I figure when I need the summon eidolon spell, I really need the summon eidolon spell. :) ).

Maybe I've been doing it wrong though.

Pretty sure that the summon Eidolon spell will just summon your armor. Synthesists don't get to see their Eidolon until split forms at level 16.


I assume from how the Hp works the temporary hitpoints from the eidolon include a con bonus? Which you ALSO get to your normal hp? doubling up your con effectively.

When reading the class i was uncertain whether to add the con bonus or not to the temp hp...everyone assuming it does? or been mentioned somewhere?

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