Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Thunder and Fang question


Rules Questions


Making a Barbarian for ROTL, I became enamored with the setting weapons (He uses a the Bladed scarf and Starknives, not the most optimal, maybe but i like 'em, and I'm sure he'll want to get an Earthbreaker soon as he sees one).

Anyway, the "thunder and fang" style looks fun.

A Shoanti Ranger working up to T&F at level third looks kinda cool, and i was trying to figure out how exactly it works
Earthbreaker: 2h weapon
Klar: shield

1. Do you need the feat before you can hold the Earthbreaker and Klar?

2. When you can't full attack, do you just 2H the Earthbreaker like normal (you do with normal double-weapons, but a 2H & Shield)

3. Or do you always strike with both of them, (cause you can't with normal double weapons, but)? I think it'd be weird, but i ask anyway, just in case.

4. Also, How do Two Weapon Defense (+1 shield bonus to AC) and Shield Focus (and GreaterSF) (Increase the AC granted by a shield by 1) interact when you have a Klar?
I'd guess that normally you get the Shield Focus bonuses with the Klar, and when you use it as a weapon and loose it by attacking you get the TWD bonus instead, but with T&F you keep the shield bonus when you attack, so you you get the TWD which gives a bonus for using a double-weapon as well, or not.


bump

also, how does Shield Master interact with the Klar?

d20pfsrd wrote:

You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

d20pfsrd wrote:


Klar

Traditionally a Shoanti blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker (a breed of Storval Plateau giant gecko), in recent years the armorers of southern Varisia have started crafting these bladed shields from iron.

Benefit: A klar can serve as a weapon or a type of shield.

As a Weapon: An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.

As Armor: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel shield when used to defend in combat.

Weapon Feature(s): special

5. Looks like the benefits of ShieldMaster (the bonus to attack and damage and penalty negation) should apply, but as it's a sword with a shield, i ask just in case...

d20pfsrd wrote:


Thunder and Fang (Combat)

You have mastered the ancient Shoanti fighting style of Thunder and Fang, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and a klar. As you swing at foes with Thunder (your earth breaker), you slash at them with the Fang (your klar).

Prerequisites: Strength 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar).

Benefit: As long as you are fighting with an earth breaker and a klar (and you make attacks with your klar as your offhand attack), you can fight with both weapons as if you were wielding a double weapon, and retain your shield bonus to your Armor Class granted by your klar. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your total penalty to attack.

Special: A fighter may select Thunder and Fang as one of his fighter bonus feats.

6. and does using the T&F earthbreaker/Klar double-weapon/shield still let you negate the twf penalties as the Klar is a Shiled, or does the T&F "as a double weapon" mean it does not get the benefit?

The Klar acts just like a light spiked shield, but doesn't use a shield-bash as an attack ,but is still a shield, right?

7. Shieldbashing with a Klar, Shieldslam lets you bull-rush with a shield-slam, so if you had the feats, you could bash for a bullrush, or slash with the weapon


im making a barbarian/fighter 4the lvl humand

lvl 1 fighter human:
two-weapon fighting
weapon focus earthbreaker
power atack
lvl 2 fighter
weapon focus klar
lvl 1 barbarrian total lvl 3
thunder and fang

this way you can use klar and earthbreaker in 2 hands total with -2/-2 considering you have 16 str it woudl be +5/+5

considering rage it can go up to +7/+7 with 2d6+5(x3) and 1d6+2(x2) damage

and stil retaining your AC ;-) at lvl 3 you should probably have mwk weapons so it might even be +1 aswell


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1) the klar is a light shield so you cannot use/wield a 2Hweapon like earthbreaker with it, except if you have the feat thunder and fang. So no.

2) the feat thunder & fang seems to have been erra-ted
thunder & fang d20
No more "double weapon": it allows to wield earthbreaker with one hand (i.e so considered as a one-handed weapon for power attack for ex).

for the rest, it seems the klar does not stack with the bashing
see here
you've also many thread and a faq on shield master


Defraeter wrote:
2) the feat thunder & fang seems to have been erra-ted

Not "errata-ed" per se, but reprinted in Varisia, Birthplace of Legends, which is PFRPG rather than its original 3.5 appearance. The wording is a little better than the original.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

oh, i don't have the book :-)
And it seems that shield master doesn't work with klar?????


Why wouldn't shield master work with a klar?

PRD wrote:

Shield Master (Combat)

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.

FYI: as a Weapon & Shield Ranger, you can get Shield Master as a bonus feat at level 6:

PRD wrote:
Weapon and Shield: If the ranger selects weapon and shield style, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Saving Shield* and Shield Master to the list. At 10th level, he adds Bashing Finish* and Greater Shield Focus to the list.


waiph wrote:

Making a Barbarian for ROTL, I became enamored with the setting weapons (He uses a the Bladed scarf and Starknives, not the most optimal, maybe but i like 'em, and I'm sure he'll want to get an Earthbreaker soon as he sees one).

Anyway, the "thunder and fang" style looks fun.

A Shoanti Ranger working up to T&F at level third looks kinda cool, and i was trying to figure out how exactly it works
Earthbreaker: 2h weapon
Klar: shield

1. Do you need the feat before you can hold the Earthbreaker and Klar?

Hold? No. Wield at the same time? Yes (unless you go Titan Mauler 2+)

waiph wrote:
2. When you can't full attack, do you just 2H the Earthbreaker like normal (you do with normal double-weapons, but a 2H & Shield)

You won't be able to two-hand an earthbreaker with a klar strapped to your arm. I haven't looked too far into it, but I think you could get a quick-draw klar... The first (outdated) version of the T&F feat let you fight with them as though they were a double weapon and would, as a result, work that way. Currently the feat allows you to wield an earthbreaker as a one-handed weapon, instead.

waiph wrote:
3. Or do you always strike with both of them, (cause you can't with normal double weapons, but)? I think it'd be weird, but i ask anyway, just in case.

No. If you can't full-attack, you can only use the attack action and attack once.

waiph wrote:

4. Also, How do Two Weapon Defense (+1 shield bonus to AC) and Shield Focus (and GreaterSF) (Increase the AC granted by a shield by 1) interact when you have a Klar?

I'd guess that normally you get the Shield Focus bonuses with the Klar, and when you use it as a weapon and loose it by attacking you get the TWD bonus instead, but with T&F you keep the shield bonus when you attack, so you you get the TWD which gives a bonus for using a double-weapon as well, or not.

Two Weapon Defense provides a shield bonus and does not stack with the shield bonus already provided by the klar. Shield Focus, on the other hand, does.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Bashing does not stack with Shield Spikes.
As klar is as a spiked shield, the shield enhancement bonus is not the blade enhancement bonus of the klar.
So you use the blade (the blade at 1d6) or the shield, that's not the same.
EDIT: i am not very clear...
the klar has 2 parts as the spiked shield
klar/shield and klar/blade: each of them may be enhanced by magic
But the feat shield master use the part klar/shield, not the part klar/blade
So i'm not sure shield master is compatible with feat thunder and fang


waiph wrote:

The Klar acts just like a light spiked shield, but doesn't use a shield-bash as an attack ,but is still a shield, right?

7. Shieldbashing with a Klar, Shieldslam lets you bull-rush with a shield-slam, so if you had the feats, you could bash for a bullrush, or slash with the weapon
Klar:
Ultimate Equipment wrote:

The traditional form of this tribal

weapon is a short blade bound to
the skull of a large horned lizard, but
a skilled smith can craft one entirely
out of metal. A traditional klar counts
as a light wooden shield with armor
spikes; a metal klar counts as a light
steel shield with armor spikes.

I'm sure Paizo meant "shield spikes" and will pretend, for purposes of my interpretation of the rules, that it says just that.

Inner Sea World Guide wrote:

Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting

of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An
attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.
See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Shield Spikes & Bash:
page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook wrote:

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial

piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a
shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature
one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on
Table 6–4). You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower
shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like
making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not
improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it,
but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in
its own right.
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel wrote:

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a

light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See “shield,
light” on Table 6–4 for the damage dealt by a shield bash.
Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning
weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat
a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield
as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn.
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the
effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield
can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Hope this all helps.


Lol, this must be the most impressive bit of thread necromancy i've been a part of, in that i wasn't a part of it at all, aside form 2 posts months ago. Yay me!

SO i wrote this thing for an E6 game:

What I want to know is: How does Shield Master work with that feat since a Klar is treated as a Shield Spikes which increase the damage of a Shield Bash and act as the weapon:Spiked Shield?

Klar wrote:


As a Weapon: An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.
As Armor: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel shield when used to defend in combat.
Shield Spikes wrote:


These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Spiked Shield wrote:


You can bash with a spiked shield instead of using it for defense.
Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon.
Shield Master wrote:


You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus
Thunder & Fang wrote:


As long as you are fighting with an earth breaker and a klar (and you make attacks with your klar as your offhand attack), you can fight with both weapons as if you were wielding a double weapon, and retain your shield bonus to your Armor Class granted by your klar. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your total penalty to attack.
In my previous analysis i wrote:


By my reading, the Klar attacks as shield spikes or the weapon Spiked Shield and as an attack with a shield, it receives the Enhancement Bonus of the shield for weapon attacks due to the Shield Master feat.

Now T&F makes the Klar and Earthbreaker act as a double weapon with three feats. But I think that as the Klar retains it's Shield Bonus to AC with T&F, it should retain its qualities as a Shield for the sake of Shield related feats. It's a decent capstone that i can only get by going Weapon & Shield ranger, and sinking my combat feats into TWF and Shield Master which is my E6 capstone.

Now, considering the changes (which really aren't changes in so far as one can only use the Klar and Earthbreaker as a double weapon when making off-hand attacks with the Klar. odd reading... anyway) one would wield the Earthbreaker as one-handed weapon, and maintain the Klar's shield bonus while bashing as if one had Imp Shield bash.

The rules do seem to support use of shield-master for the Klar, but without SM, one would need to enhance the Klar blade seperate from the shield, as shield spikes.


waiph wrote:
Lol, this must be the most impressive bit of thread necromancy i've been a part of, in that i wasn't a part of it at all, aside form 2 posts months ago. Yay me!

Wow. I didn't even look at when you posted this, only that Darkflame and Defraeter had responded to it. Ha!

waiph wrote:
The rules do seem to support use of shield-master for the Klar, but without SM, one would need to enhance the Klar blade seperate from the shield, as shield spikes.

Agreed.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I didn't even noticed the first post was more than 1 year old. ;-)
But i want to be sure to understand well.
What we knows:
Klar has 2 parts: a blade and a shield.
Each part must be enhanced separately (as for spiked shield):
Klar/blade: enhancement bonus only to hit/dmg
Klar/shield: enhancement bonus only to shield bonus

feat T&F:
- allow to wield earthbreaker one-hand only if you wield a klar in off-hand
- allow to keep shield bonus of klar even when you attack with it, only in case of TWF with earthbreaker in main hand.
- klar is considered as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty

feat shield master:
- do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon (only valid for the shield)
- Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus

So i read:
if you use feat SM with klar, the penalty of TWF is suppressed for klar (not for earthbreaker) and you add your klar/shield bonus to attack.
You add the part Klar/shield, not the part klar/blade.

Ex: if you have a klar +3 "blade" /+1 shield, the feat SM add the bonus shield so +1 to the attack.
But the bonus doesn't stack with another enhancement bonus.

Questions:
1) when you attack with feat SM, do you attack with Klar/shield or with klar/blade?
i find that not very clear as they write "...to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield"...

2) in feat SM, what does include "shield's enhancement bonus"? only the magical part or basic bonus shield +magical enhancement +feat?
i.e
basic bonus shield: for a light shield, it's +1
magical part: enhancement bonus to shield bonus
feat: like shield focus or greater shield focus (but not TW defense because it give an shield bonus which doesn't stack)

3) if you use a "slam attack" of feat shield slam, do you make a klar/blade or klar/shield attack?


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

EX: you have a Klar +1 ghost touch "blade" and +3 fortification, light "shield"

with feat T&F only:
bonus to hit: +1
dmg: 1d6 +1 ghost touch of type slashing (S)

you keep bonus of shield to AC: +1 (light shield) +3 (enhancement) = +4 shield bonus

with feat T&F and feat SM
attack with klar/blade
bonus to hit: +1 (enhancement blade) +3 (enhancement shield -not stackable) = +3
dmg: 1d6 +3 ghost touch of type slashing (S)

attack with klar/shield
bonus to hit: +3 (enhancement shield) = +3
dmg: 1d3 +3 of type bashing (B)


Defraeter wrote:

EX: you have a Klar +1 ghost touch "blade" and +3 fortification, light "shield"

with feat T&F only:
bonus to hit: +1
dmg: 1d6 +1 ghost touch of type slashing (S)

you keep bonus of shield to AC: +1 (light shield) +3 (enhancement) = +4 shield bonus

with feat T&F and feat SM
attack with klar/blade
bonus to hit: +1 (enhancement blade) +3 (enhancement shield -not stackable) = +3
dmg: 1d6 +3 ghost touch of type slashing (S)

attack with klar/shield
bonus to hit: +3 (enhancement shield) = +3
dmg: 1d3 +3 of type bashing (B)

That looks right (assuming SM feat in last scenario). Also, as a side note, if your +3(shield) klar also had the Bashing enchantment, it would apply, but only to the regular (bludgeoning) shield bash.

Just so you know, when two bonuses are applied but do not stack, they are typically said to "overlap."


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abyssian wrote:

That looks right (assuming SM feat in last scenario). Also, as a side note, if your +3(shield) klar also had the Bashing enchantment, it would apply, but only to the regular (bludgeoning) shield bash.

Just so you know, when two bonuses are applied but do not stack, they are typically said to "overlap."

Overlap? ho, i didn't know the word in english. Sure, it's more practical. ;-)

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Thunder and Fang question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.