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I'm a pretty constant tinkerer and I've fiddled with the city-building rules in Kingmaker to get them right where I want them. One thing I've noticed is that Kingmaker #2 came out right before the GMG and Paizo's final take on city stat-blocks. Whereas Kingmaker assigns cities 3 stats: Econ, Loyalty and Stability, the GMG assigns 6: Corruption, Crime, Economy, Law, Lore and Society. I'm curious if anyone has played with this and tried to re-key buildings to GMG stats, and then, what would be the implications for kingdom stats? (Note: this is probably WAY too much work to actually do, but I'd be curious to hear other folks thoughts)
Econ is, well, Econ. Shops, markets, etc. would keep their Econ scores.
Libraries, colleges and academies, museums, etc. would contribute to Lore.
Brothels, tenements, black markets would add to Crime, while watchtowers and garrisons would reduce Crime. It would track closely with Unrest.
Law would be more like town halls and courts. Stability.
Society is described as being open-mindedness, but it's hard to match buildings to diversity.
Corruption is hard too. It's almost like negative Loyalty.
I don't know. Any other thoughts?
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I view them as separate entities. The stats in the KM Kingdom building rules revolve around the dynamic of creating and maintaining a kingdom, and the stats for cities in that system tie into the stats that make up the entire kingdom. Those stats are on an administrative level.
The city stats in the GMG you mention revolve around actual gameplay within that city, modifying skill checks, determining encounters and the value of purchasing power for magic items and spellcasting. The GMG stats are on the character level and affect the mechanics of the game.
I use both in my game and leave them separate for those reasons. I do, however, use the GMG stats to modify the city's base value and purchasing power as needed, depending on what traits that city has.
Breaking down GMG stats so that buildings in the city contribute to them may not be the way to go, as the GMG stats affect skill checks and encounter difficulty within the city. You may end up with insanely high modifiers to add onto or penalize a skill check, thus creating difficulty in your game.
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I use them both, but seperately. the kingdom building stats (economy, loyalty, and stability) we use during kingdom building. The GMG stats (crime, lore, law, ect) are assigned seperately and only really apply if the PCs go into their cities for some reason. its actually pretty easy to do if you follow the GMG rules for doing it. Basically when i do up a city stat-block for the kingdom's cities, i have the stats laid out exactly like the GMG, with the Kingmaker stats - economy,loyalty, stability, buildings, defense mod, magic items, ect at the bottom.
The problem with your system is that unless you're starting at a very low number - -10 for example - buildings contributing to city statistics will grant your PCs massive bonuses to skills.
Instead, I've done the inverse - a settlement's six statistics influence the kingdom's Econ, Loyalty, and Stability. (With the statistics growing as detailed in the GMG.) An excerpt from my (still being tested) houserules:
"ECONOMY, STABILITY, AND LOYALTY
Like a kingdom, a settlement has an Economy, Stability, and Loyalty score. These scores are added to the scores of the larger kingdom, modifying those scores. A settlement’s Economy, Stability, and Loyalty scores are determined by a combination of factors, from the buildings that make up the settlement, to the settlement’s modifiers (see above), and the settlement’s leadership.
Economy: A settlement’s base Economy score is equal to its Corruption modifier plus its Wealth* modifier.
Stability: A settlement’s base Stability score is equal to its Law modifier plus its Society modifier.
Loyalty: A settlement’s base Loyalty score is equal to its Crime modifier plus its Lore modifier."
*In order to avoid confusion, I renamed the GMG's "Economy" into "Wealth".
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The problem with your system is that unless you're starting at a very low number - -10 for example - buildings contributing to city statistics will grant your PCs massive bonuses to skills.
Buildings do not influence Crime, Lore, Danger, Social, ect scores. Only the three Kingdombuilding statistics. the GMG statistics are only increased/decreased the same way as stated in the GMG - type of government, alignment, city qualities, advantages, disadvantages, ect.
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I agree w/ Doomcrow's assessment of this.
The OP has an interesting idea - but not practical in it's application of it.
I'm interested in knowing Doomcrow's way in which you have certain blgs affect a particular city's 6 stats (crime etc).
So far the game has only been really exploring wilderness territory. Perhaps it's time to have some city adventuring done. It would be cool to see these numbers have an in-game effect on the PCs as they travel their own streets.....Just wondering how to adjudicate coming up with the numbers....
Thoughts?
Robert
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I agree w/ Doomcrow's assessment of this.
The OP has an interesting idea - but not practical in it's application of it.
I'm interested in knowing Doomcrow's way in which you have certain blgs affect a particular city's 6 stats (crime etc).
So far the game has only been really exploring wilderness territory. Perhaps it's time to have some city adventuring done. It would be cool to see these numbers have an in-game effect on the PCs as they travel their own streets.....Just wondering how to adjudicate coming up with the numbers....
Thoughts?
Robert
Well as I said previously, I don't use buildings to adjust the GMG city stats, as you would eventually have crazy high modifiers. I just use the stats according to city size and adjust based on the city's type of government and city traits.
If I were to take a crack at it, however, I would group the buildings by the modifier that best associates with them and thus provide an increased or favorable modifier for that stat. It would look something like this:
Crime – Thieves Guild, Black Market, Waterfront
Law – Courthouse, Office of the City Watch, Jailhouse, Gallows, Watchtower, Barracks, Garrison
Corruption – Brothel, Gaming Hall, Black Market, Thieves Guild
Lore – Academy, Library, Caster's Tower, School
Society – Theater, Arena, Tournament Grounds, Cathedral, Temple, Noble Villa, Town Hall, Embassy
Economy – Market, Black Market, Exotic Craftsman, Tradesman, Luxury Store, Waterfront, Inn, Tavern, Any kind of shop
Notice that some of the modifiers overlap into various stats. Note too that some of these buildings would decrease other stats, such as a Courthouse decreasing crime while increasing Law.
Now, take into consideration that some of these buildings could be colored by aspects of the campaign and story. The Courthouse, for instance, could have several judges on the take with bribes from the Thieves Guild and thus that Corruption factor would have to be taken into consideration. This type of association of buildings to various stats could swing any way the GM wants it to really, within reason.
If I were to do it this way, I wouldn't use the buildings to modify the overall City Stats. I would, however, provide conditional modifiers for the party if they were to venture into one of these buildings and do business, have an encounter, etc.
Let's take my party's city of Crimsondale, for example. It's stats are the following, currently:
Corruption: +2 (Modifier to Bluff checks made against city officials or guards and all Stealth checks made outside (but not within buildings or underground)
Crime +0 (Modifier to Sense Motive Checks to avoid being bluffed and Sleight of Hand checks made to pick pockets)
Economy: +4 (Modifier to all Craft, Perform, and Profession checks made to generate income)
Law: +0 (Modifier to Intimidate checks made to force an opponent to act friendly, Diplomacy checks made against government officials, and Diplomacy checks made to call the City Guard)
Lore: +2 (Modifies Diplomacy checks made to gather information and Knowledge checks made using city resources to do research using in a library)
Society: +6 (Modifier to Disguise checks and Diplomacy checks made to alter the attitude of any non-government official)
Qualities: Insular, Rumormongering Citizens, Prosperous, Strategic Location, Magically Attuned
Danger: 10
If my party were to go into the Black Market, for instance, I would change Corruption to +7, Crime to +5, Law to -5, Lore to +4 and Society to +8 to represent the overall shadiness of the area, the decreased guard presence, and the ease of which one can blend into a crowd gather information and bump into someone and make off with their coinpurse.
If instead they went into the Academy, I'd make the stats Lore +8, Crime -2, Law +2, and Corruption +0. This would represent the research resources of the school, the increased attention to detail of students and teachers and the overall atmosphere of order with a set of rules in place that the students don't wish to breach.
The values by which I increased the above stats are arbitrary; as a GM you raise or lower them as you see fit. Also, feel free to color the stats in these areas according to the flavor of your own game. If your city is rife with corruption and thievery, then this school might have those stats, nor the black market. IMO it's all based on the GM's perception of his story, the environment and what would best suit those in accordance with the encounters and roleplaying conducted by his/her party.