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Are there a lot of other craft skills that require a feat?I don't see what's so upsetting about the lack of craft rules.The fact that for some reason guns are so special you dont need skill or checks to make them, unlike EVERYTHING else in the game.
Uhm...you mean besides magic items.
You don't need the feat to make guns, it just makes it totally effortless and something that you dont need skill ranks for.
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Are there a lot of other craft skills that require a feat?I don't see what's so upsetting about the lack of craft rules.The fact that for some reason guns are so special you dont need skill or checks to make them, unlike EVERYTHING else in the game.
Uhm...you mean besides magic items.
You don't need the feat to make guns, it just makes it totally effortless and something that you dont need skill ranks for.
To be fair, this is most likely because the class that focuses on it doesn't have the skill points to spare. It would have been cruel to give gunslingers gunsmithing with their 2+int skill points per level. On top of that, those who burn a feat to be able to fabricate the mundane items that are guns, is already investing roughly the same as someone who maxes out let's say Craft(Bowmaking).
Still no build...
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Gunslinger DPR 69.30 (still more than 66.79)
So even using your precious DPR calculator I win.
Full Attack: 69.30
Damage +1: 3.30
Extra Attack: 23.10Single Attack: 23.10
Damage +1: 1.10Whatever the hell all that means. I assume that will mean something to you DPR fanatics.
Again I've just started messin with this thing, but it seems fairly straight forward.
1 to turn on feats. Dice average. Enhancement Bonus. Etc, etc.
Just one question -- where's the build?
Because you know -- you never actually posted it.
I mean you've thrown a lot of numbers around -- and even threw out a fighter longbow build -- but I'm not seeing a gunslinger build.
Which is of course because you haven't posted it.
Its the same Gunslinger from the Iron Golem encounter.
You're gonna have to wait until tomorrow for the full stat block post, I'm outta here for today. But I'll post his whole stat block, but you should be able to get the same results as me with the info above, but if not I'll be back tomorrow.
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Exactly, so again I fail to see the problem. If you don't have the feat then you have to craft them like everything else in the game.
You don't need the feat to make guns, it just makes it totally effortless and something that you dont need skill ranks for.
There is no feat that lets you magically craft anything else in the game bypassing all checks and the need to be a skilled craftsman.
Craft a masterwork bow. Takes skill ranks and checks. No feat to bypass these. And spend 2-3 weeks
Craft a masterwork pistol. Take Gunsmithing and spend a day. No skill ranks required no check involved.
I still don't see a build, just in case you overlooked Mr. Spalding's 2 request for one.
I still don't see a build, just in case you overlooked Mr. Spalding's 2 request for one.
He didn't miss it -- he said tomorrow -- I'm willing to wait -- best follow all the rules though.
To be fair, this is most likely because the class that focuses on it doesn't have the skill points to spare. It would have been cruel to give gunslingers gunsmithing with their 2+int skill points per level. On top of that, those who burn a feat to be able to fabricate the mundane items that are guns, is already investing roughly the same as someone who maxes out let's say Craft(Bowmaking).Are there a lot of other craft skills that require a feat?I don't see what's so upsetting about the lack of craft rules.The fact that for some reason guns are so special you dont need skill or checks to make them, unlike EVERYTHING else in the game.
Uhm...you mean besides magic items.
You don't need the feat to make guns, it just makes it totally effortless and something that you dont need skill ranks for.
4+int skills/level :)
Also, the one who burn a feat are better off, because the ones who invest in craft (bowmaking), while investing similar resources, get less return, because A) Natural 1s happen. B) They don't get a 95% success rate until high levels (unless they pay a feat for skill focus, which is goofy for skills that work against static DCs), and even then, it's a 95% chance, not 100% from level one.
Statistical anomoly huh?
CR 13 Bestiary Monsters
Adult Blue Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Adult Bronze Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Froghemoth (AC 28, touch 9) [difference 19]
Ghaele (AC 27, touch 15) [difference 12]
Glabrezu (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Ice Devil (AC 32, touch 14) [difference 18]
Iron Golem (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Storm Giant (AC 28, touch 10) [difference 18]
Average AC 28, touch AC 10 [difference 18]Yeah I guess your right, he seems to really stick out of that crowd.
Yes, he does, because it's the highest AC monster of all of CR 13. The difference between AC 8-12 is negligible, while the difference between 28 and 33 is very large.
You've picked the situation which is absolutely most favorable to a gunslinger, and come out less than 5% ahead.
I guess you sure showed everyone something, but I'm not sure it was what you intended.
Which of course means he wouldn't mind at all if we used say the Ghaele instead of the Iron Golem right? I've actually faced Ghaele before so that means it'll be a 'real' encounter right?
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Statistical anomoly huh?
CR 13 Bestiary Monsters
Adult Blue Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Adult Bronze Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Froghemoth (AC 28, touch 9) [difference 19]
Ghaele (AC 27, touch 15) [difference 12]
Glabrezu (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Ice Devil (AC 32, touch 14) [difference 18]
Iron Golem (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Storm Giant (AC 28, touch 10) [difference 18]
Average AC 28, touch AC 10 [difference 18]Yeah I guess your right, he seems to really stick out of that crowd.
Yes, he does, because it's the highest AC monster of all of CR 13. The difference between AC 8-12 is negligible, while the difference between 28 and 33 is very large.
You've picked the situation which is absolutely most favorable to a gunslinger, and come out less than 5% ahead.
I guess you sure showed everyone something, but I'm not sure it was what you intended.
Uhm...he's almost exactly the same as the average for all these monsters, so I guess you told me.
The average touch AC is two points higher than he claimed -- that matters on the last attacks.
Also by grabbing a 'random' monster he also didn't grab say... the Ghaele which wouldn't support his position nearly as well.
He also failed to list all of the monsters of that CR. This could make a huge difference in the average AC and average Touch AC -- it really doesn't in this case... but it could.
In the end by failing to use defaults or providing actual statistical averages he provides a faulty example that represents bad math (intentionally or not).
Again it goes back to statistics -- it isn't an accurate representation of an 'average' encounter or of an 'average' monster... or much of anything really. It renders his entire position down to anecdotal at best because it's the same things they do when they want to throw off the numbers in a poll or what have you.
Basically put it's a sampling error -- one that a single course in statistics helps keep you from making.
The problem with sampling errors is they can completely throw off the data -- the margin of error is supposed to be no greater than +/- 3% -- he's off by 5~10%.
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Oh hey, don't forget the 1-2 misfire range for the pepperbox. It's not only 5% of "no damage" in the DPR number, it's 10%, so probably a similar penalty to the bonus you get from your critical range getting from 20x2 to 19-20x2 ; even though I admit this one will be hard to figure out without a mathematician. (But rest assured that real average DPR will still be lower than the one you'll get by including this "little detail"... or you should get a "reliable" gun, thus putting things to the normal natural 1 misfire ?)
Also, let's say the gunslinger didn't have to reload with paper cartridges, it would lower this DPR even more.
Oh, also, the fact that a misfire, while doing 0 damage, also reduces your following DPR sgnificatively since -2 Att/Dam and 20x2 critical is going to hurt on a poor pistol. This one simply can't be calculated but, surprise ! It lowers average DPR again a bit more just by existing, at least some precious, precious points.
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How broken were the firearm rules originally? Because if they were 1% broken and now they are 100% more broken that would be only 2% broken.
Statistical anomoly huh?
CR 13 Bestiary Monsters
Adult Blue Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Adult Bronze Dragon (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Froghemoth (AC 28, touch 9) [difference 19]
Ghaele (AC 27, touch 15) [difference 12]
Glabrezu (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Ice Devil (AC 32, touch 14) [difference 18]
Iron Golem (AC 28, touch 8) [difference 20]
Storm Giant (AC 28, touch 10) [difference 18]
Average AC 28, touch AC 10 [difference 18]Yeah I guess your right, he seems to really stick out of that crowd.
Yes, he does, because it's the highest AC monster of all of CR 13. The difference between AC 8-12 is negligible, while the difference between 28 and 33 is very large.
You've picked the situation which is absolutely most favorable to a gunslinger, and come out less than 5% ahead.
I guess you sure showed everyone something, but I'm not sure it was what you intended.
A lot of those monster have DR some of them even have regeneration
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Ok, so since I got nothing better to do, I'll post the so-needed gunslinger build myself. Note I'll be controlling the one you used for the previous example, wielding a peppergun. ;)
Assuming that your guns count as half-price, that the weapon is reloaded with safe bullets, that you begin the fight with the weapon loaded in hands, using a peppergun that can only misfire on a one, allowing two full-rounds attacks before needing reloading =
Lvl 10 Gunslinger
Str 12
Dex 22 (15+ 2 Racial + 1 Lvl + 4 Belt)
Con 14 (13+ 1 Lvl)
Int 10
Wis 16 (14+ 2 Headband)
Cha 8
Feats :
G. Gunsmithing
H. Precise shot
1. Deadly Aim
3. Point-blank shot
4. Rapid Shot
5. Quick draw
7. Clustered shots
8. Rapid Reload
9. Weapon focus (Perppergun)
62000
+2 Reliable Peppergun
42200
+4 Dex belt
26200
+2 Wis Headband
22200
+3 Rosewood armor
13000
+1 Nat Armor/+1 Protection/+2 Cape of resistance
5000
Some bullets + kit + powder + horn
4750
Peppergun, secondary
Dragon pistol, last resort
Original +1 Pistol
AC : 23/17/17
Fort: 7+2+2= 11
Will: 3+3+2= 8
Ref: 7+6+2= 15
Base Attack Bonus +10/+5;
Melee Attack Bonus +11/+6;
Ranged Attack Bonus +16/+11
Attack with +2 peppergun : 10 + 6(Dex) + 1(WF) + 2(Enh) = +19
Damage with +2 peppergun : 1d8 + 6(Dex) + 2(Enh) = 1d8+8
+2 Reliable peppergun +19/+14; 1d8+8; 20x4
Rapidshot + Deadly Aim + PBS = +15/+15/+10; 1d8+15 20x4.
Gunsli's DPR against AC 8 = 63,91, or 48,91 with DR counted once.
Archer's DPR against AC 28 = 66,79, or 51,79 with DR counted once.
Considering we don't even include in the equation the brutal damage reduction from a misfire and that reduces the real Gunslinger's DPR, I think it is safe to read these numbers like a lot of people already do.
Or we could "definitively" get it out of the equation by doing a +1 lucky reliable gun to (try to) avoid one misfire per day, at the expense of -1 to overall attack/damage.
+2 Reliable peppergun +19/+14; 1d8+8; 20x4
Rapidshot + Deadly Aim + PBS = +15/+15/+10; 1d8+15 20x4.=> +2 Composite Longbow (Str +4) +25/+20; 1d8+12; 19-20/x3, P, 110' range
Rapidshot + Manyshot + Deadly Aim + PBS = +21/+21/+16; 1d8+19 19-20x3.Gunsli's DPR against AC 8 = 63,91, or 48,91 with DR counted once.
Archer's DPR against AC 28 = 66,79, or 51,79 with DR counted once.
Seems odd. Not using criticals and doing the math by hand, I get:
43.47 for the archer and 55.6 for the gunslinger. Do crits make this much difference? I don't think so.
And why would the gunslinger take WF at 9th level. I would take improved critical. You do not need the bonus to hit, as your numbers show. That *4 crit would really help the gunslinger in this calculation and help him get back grit too.
I am a bit new at this, so please correct me if I am wrong.
Oh I see, I forgot the many shot feat. That brings it to 59.9 for the archer. Thats a great feat!
Thanks for doing this, again it is very interesting to see the detailed character.
You could add a pisterlo to do a bit more damage, at the cost of grit. But that cost would be free at level 11.
And not using DPR to do it. We use DPR because it's effective, modular, and generally scientific
It was pointed out to you that your method doesn't give accurate results. I was reiterating that, since you've refused to use the DPR method.
Hmmm...ok so let me get this straight. Making a direct IF/THEN comparison is not scientific. IF they roll X THEN Y happens.
Yes. A direct comparison doesn't work here because there's no accounting for every logical possibility.
The issues with your archer can be pointed out by better optimizers than me. All I said was the attack bonus is sub-par, which turned out to be true.
It is? It was?
Okay, to be more specific, I made a comparison with the fighter in my current game, in attack bonus only, and said that the archer sucked. The fighter in the game I'm in also deals more damage, but I didn't go so far in the first response, since it's a game that wasn't constructed with the DPR rules in mind.
I said, in my first post, to please, please, play a gunslinger. And you didn't, and said that I was wrong. In this case we're both guilty, but the burden of proof is on you, since you have a claim to make in the first place.
I made my claim, Archer A versus Gunslinger B. Gunslinger B wins, except in a few cases when the Archer comes through with high rolls. If we just go with average (10.5) the Gunslinger wins hands down.
The current posts on the thread point out why this just isn't true. Misfire is a b^&*#, something I said in a thread like this before. Because, you know, I played a gunslinger that one time and found out first hand.
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Seems odd. Not using criticals and doing the math by hand, I get:43.47 for the archer and 55.6 for the gunslinger. Do crits make this much difference? I don't think so.
And why would the gunslinger take WF at 9th level. I would take improved critical. You do not need the bonus to hit, as your numbers show. That *4 crit would really help the gunslinger in this calculation and help him get back grit too.
I am a bit new at this, so please correct me if I am wrong.
Actually, you're right, while trying to use the previous gunslinger build as an example, I overlooked this option. Like you guessed, it would improve DPR.
It still doesn't remove the DPR penalty once you misfire that isn't included in the previous build, and not getting this additional +1 to hit would hurt for any attack that doesn't hit touch ac.Pistolero has a high damage potential, but also more misfire risk included and huge attack penalties until higher levels. Not even talking about the TWF feat tax you can't afford without sacrifing something worthwile for it - just look at the previous build to see the number of feats you must have, versus the number you get to better understand.
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Uhm so I'm not sure where we're at right now since the build above is pretty close to my build...so here...
So heres what I came up with the Fighter (I was kinda working from memory so he might not be 100% accurate) against the average CR 13 AC 28 (T 10), not the Iron Golem the AVERAGE.
DPR: 44.25
Attack +1: 5.75
Damage +1: 1.77
Extra Attack: 13.50
And thats after I gave him a Misc. +damage: 4 (because I felt sorry for him)
If you change his target AC to 10 his DPR shoots up to 109.25 (but touch AC doesn't affect things I forgot, sorry)
The Gunslinger gets
DPR: 66.00
Attack +1: 0.00
Damage +1: 3.30
Extra Attack: 22.00
So yeah I guess if the low score wins (I bet it doesn't) the the archer is owning the gunslinger. Your right, I dont know what I was thinking.
So this thing is pretty easy to use so lets throw up some more numbers, shall we?
versus the Ghaele (AC 27, touch 15)
Archer DPR: 50.00
Gunslinger DPR: 63.00
CR 13 too tough lets go on down to CR 10
Average AC 23 (T 10) [thats just the bestiary 1]
Archer DPR: 73.00
Gunslinger DPR: 66.00
Wow I was gonna post some more Kingmaker encounters but Blood for Blood (the 10th level issue) is just loaded with crap monsters from front to back. 6 CR 6 trolls, wow color me underwhelmed. No wonder we rolled over these encounters, and were about a level behind the curve.
So I guess if you fight chump monsters the archer shines, but when you fight tough monsters the gunslinger shines. CR 13 encounters are more what I consider the norm for 10th level characters, not CR 11 encounters made up with 3 CR 7 Boggards and 3 Giant Frogs with 11 CR 2 Boggards, thats a speed bump on the way to a real encounter.
Also I think its worth noting that just like the numbers I posted earlier, the Gunslinger remains consistant in the 63-66 range while the archer fluctuates wildly from 44-73, which suggests to me the crucial point that consistancy wins.
More hits for less damage equals more damage overall.
How about a really tough monster, CR 15 Average AC 31 (T 8)
Archer DPR: 26.88
Gunslinger DPR: 66.00 (still)
Now thats fair? I just feel sorry for the archer, if it were fair and balanced, the gunslinger should be sucking in this encounter just llike the rest of his party.
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Gunslinger (No Archetype)
Human Gunslinger 10
Favored Class Bonus: +1 HP each level
Human Ability Bonus: +2 Dexterity (level bonuses +2 Dexterity)
Strength 13 (+1)
Dexterity 19/23 (+4/+6)
Constitution 14 (+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12/16 (+1/+3)
Charisma 8 (-1)
Base Attack Bonus +10/+5; Melee Attack Bonus +11/+6; Ranged Attack Bonus +16/+11
CMB +13; CMD 27 (23 FF)
Fort +11
Ref +15
Will +8
Initiative +8
Speed 30 feet (6 squares)
AC 26 (T 19, FF 19)
HP 94
Gunslinger Abilities
Deadeye, Deeds, Grit, Gunslinger's Dodge, Gunsmith, Quick Clear, Nimble +3, Gunslinger Initiative, Pistol Whip, Utility Shot, Gun Training (Pistol), Covering Shot, Dead Shot, Startling Shot, Targeting, Gun Training (Pepperbox)
Bonus Feats: Deadly Aim (-3/+6), Point Blank Shot
Skills (only those with ranks)
Acrobatics +18, Intimidate +12, Perception +16, Ride +18, Survival +16
Feats
Clustered Shots, Extra Grit, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Pepperbox), Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Pepperbox)
Weapons
+2 Pepperbox +19/+14; 1d8+8; 20/x4, B/P, 20' range
+1 Pistol +17/+12; 1d8+7; 20/x4, B/P, 20' range
Armor
+2 Chain Shirt +6; Max Dex +4, Armor Check -1
Magic Items
Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Cloak of Resistance +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4, Ring of Protection +2
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Wow, this archer build you just provided to justify it's ridiculously low DPR number totally blew my mind, I now underst...
I have no idea what thats supposed to mean but, the archer you built gets into the mid 60s for DPR, so why is mine so terrible?
The original point i was making with this whole thing was how the touch attack mechanic is flawed, as the examples show (I was gonna say prove, but nothing proves anything around here).
The gunslingers DPR doesn't change, the archers does. End of story.
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Strength 15/18 (+2/+4)
Dexterity 18/20 (+4/+5)
Constitution 12/14 (+1/+2)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 12 (+1)
Charisma 9 (-1)Base Attack Bonus +10/+5;
Melee Attack Bonus +13/+8;
Ranged Attack Bonus +15/+10- Gloves of duelist included =>
Weapon Training: Bows - +2 to attack, damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
+2 from gloves.Attack with longbow : 10 + 5(Dex) + 2(WT) + 2(GloDuel) + 2(WF) + 2(Enh) = +25
Damage with longbow : 1d8 + 4(Str) + 2(WT) +2(GloDuel) + 2(WS) + 2(Enh) = 1d8+12=> +2 Composite Longbow (Str +4) +25/+20; 1d8+12; 19-20/x3, P, 110' range
Rapidshot + Manyshot + Deadly Aim + PBS = +21/+21/+16; 1d8+19 19-20x3.Against AC 28, average DPR per round using Tejon's calculator = 65,91 damage... but let's say an average of "50" damage because of DR applied once.
Not sure how you're getting this because my archer is getting 44.25 against AC 28.
Heres what Im doing in the DPR calculator.target ac: 28, base attack 10, STR mod 4, DEX mod 5, power attack, PBS, rapidshot, manyshot, dice average 5, enhancement 2, threat 19, crit 3, ranged STR cap -1, focus level 3, weapon training 1 and a misc +damage of 4
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Wow, this archer build you just provided to justify it's ridiculously low DPR number totally blew my mind, I now underst...I have no idea what thats supposed to mean but, the archer you built gets into the mid 60s for DPR, so why is mine so terrible?
The original point i was making with this whole thing was how the touch attack mechanic is flawed, as the examples show (I was gonna say prove, but nothing proves anything around here).
The gunslingers DPR doesn't change, the archers does. End of story.
Oh yeah, the touch AC mechanic is so flawed, mind you, that a level 10 fighter does only little more damage against AC 28 than a gunslinger does against AC 8 and without a weapon that breaks on a fumble !
Damn you for breaking Pathfinder, Paizo. :(I would laugh, if I wasn't so unsuprised by your attempt to convince yourself that you're even remotely right. You pull numbers out of a hole I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole for fear of becoming an eldritch abomination of madness and it is supposed to convince someone out there... it seems. Lvl 10 against cr 15 was a good joke, thank you. Or let's compare 2 cr 12 then, to find again how archer wins the round.
Make yourself a favor and either stop -trying- to argue, or trolling. You lost this argument during the playtest, came back now that thee was more material and potential to abuse - you're still wrong.
Deal with it and just houserule it if you don't like it, while PFS is having fun... :D
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Oh yeah, the touch AC mechanic is so flawed, mind you, that a level 10 fighter does only little more damage against AC 28 than a gunslinger does against AC 8 and without a weapon that breaks on a fumble !
Damn you for breaking Pathfinder, Paizo. :(I would laugh, if I wasn't so unsuprised by your attempt to convince yourself that you're even remotely right. You pull numbers out of a hole I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole for fear of becoming an eldritch abomination of madness and it is supposed to convince someone out there... it seems. Lvl 10 against cr 15 was a good joke, thank you. Or let's compare 2 cr 12 then, to find again how archer wins the round.
Make yourself a favor and either stop -trying- to argue, or trolling. You lost this argument during the playtest, came back now that thee was more material and potential to abuse - you're still wrong.Deal with it and just houserule it if you don't like it, while PFS is having fun... :D
Wow, touch a nerve did I? Seems like someone has some bile to spew.
The CR 15 was just an example, all 10th level characters should be sucking in that encounter except the gunslinger doesn't thanks to his awesome weapon. But instead of pointing out what kind of mistakes I might have been making with my terrible archer in calulating his DPR you intead want to talk to me (complete with poor grammar) like you own this place, if you don't have something useful to post please just go away (seems like I said this once to you already).
The gunslingers DPR doesn't change, the archers does. End of story.
1) The archer still deals more damage in most fights. Being that most encounters are not APL +5, the archer wins.
2) You haven't addressed misfires at all. You haven't even played a gunslinger. I will keep saying this as long you say it's broken without playing it.
3) The gunslinger's DPR actually does change. When? When he's outside of the first range increment. Sure, advanced firearms may never make it outside their touch range in a game, but I've started plenty of fights more than 20' away. Even playing the gunslinger, I wasn't targeting the enemies' touch AC all the time (though I was trying to).
If you rid the guns of their touch AC, you might as well rid the guns of their misfire as well. Which would make them, well, a lot like crossbows (some of them repeating crossbows). Sure, there's a spread option, but for the money, that's just, well, underwhelming. YMMV, but your version of guns isn't very exciting to me.
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The gunslingers DPR doesn't change, the archers does. End of story.1) The archer still deals more damage in most fights. Being that most encounters are not APL +5, the archer wins.
2) You haven't addressed misfires at all. You haven't even played a gunslinger. I will keep saying this as long you say it's broken without playing it.
3) The gunslinger's DPR actually does change. When? When he's outside of the first range increment. Sure, advanced firearms may never make it outside their touch range in a game, but I've started plenty of fights more than 20' away. Even playing the gunslinger, I wasn't targeting the enemies' touch AC all the time (though I was trying to).
If you rid the guns of their touch AC, you might as well rid the guns of their misfire as well. Which would make them, well, a lot like crossbows (some of them repeating crossbows). Sure, there's a spread option, but for the money, that's just, well, underwhelming. YMMV, but your version of guns isn't very exciting to me.
Nice to deal with someone who feel like talking about things instead of blowing up about stuff...
1) If you say so, I'm kinda sick of arguing about this.
2) Why should I? It was all about DPR, DPR, DPR. The DPR calculator doesn't address this, the archer could have someone cast warp wood on his bow in the first round so then what doesn he do? IF,IF,IF. You (not you specifically) were claiming that the archer just flat out owns the gunslinger on DPR and that blanket statement isn't true.
3) Sure you may START at more than 20', and have to close the gap like a melee character, so your first round won't be a full attack but that doesn't automatically gaurantee the archers first round will be a full attck tound either.
4)Im not 100% against the touch attack mechanic, I just think there are better ways to implement it. Not as a feature of the guns but as a class feature of the Gunslinger. This would keep guns out of the hands of most people since they are expensive, they do misfire, and they are an exotic weapon. The way they are now, chumps can shoot targets they should have no chance of affecting, even with a -4 penalty for being non-proficient.
So, have we agreed on an appropriate build of archer and gunslinger to compare the two?
How does it come out?
2) Why should I?
2) You haven't addressed misfires at all. You haven't even played a gunslinger. I will keep saying this as long you say it's broken without playing it.
Because misfires reduce the Gunslinger's DPR.
If the difference is already pretty much negligible BEFORE we take this additional factor into account, it seems pretty likely the gunslinger will lose out AFTER we do.
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Nice to deal with someone who feel like talking about things instead of blowing up about stuff...1) If you say so, I'm kinda sick of arguing about this.
2) Why should I? It was all about DPR, DPR, DPR. The DPR calculator doesn't address this, the archer could have someone cast warp wood on his bow in the first round so then what doesn he do? IF,IF,IF. You (not you specifically) were claiming that the archer just flat out owns the gunslinger on DPR and that blanket statement isn't true.
3) Sure you may START at more than 20', and have to close the gap like a melee character, so your first round won't be a full attack but that doesn't automatically gaurantee the archers first round will be a full attck tound either.
4)Im not 100% against the touch attack mechanic, I just think there are better ways to implement it. Not as a feature of the guns but as a class feature of the Gunslinger. This would keep guns out of the hands of most people since they are...
I think that sometimes the archer owns and sometimes the gunslinger owns is probably a good thing. That tells me that they play differently, and not just in a new skin. So, in some cases, sure, the gunslinger does have an advantage. But, and the big one, it's certainly not all the time. That, more than anything, is what I expected, and received, by having a new class dedicated to a form of combat already in the game.
DPR unfortunately doesn't include misfires in its calculations, but I'm sure there's a math genius who can put it together so it does. Bottom line, though, is that DPR is the best estimate with what we have. I'm glad you started to use it.
There were times, when playing the gunslinger, that I couldn't close the gap, or doing so would have been hazardous to my health. That flies in the face of what an archer plays like. Since an archer has no reason to step up into potentially threatened areas, this was quite the wake-up call when my dwarf gunslinger died at the jaws of a large crocodile (my bane, it seems, as I lost a few characters in the jaws of crocodiles. Captain Hook status I guess).
If a chump misfires even once with a firearm, he's not using it for a bit. I imagine, for a chump, that a gun would be expensive. Knowing this, without proper feats, he stops firing that gun or else lose it, since it needs repairing and normally takes quite a bit of time to do that.
I'm not that worried. We've come up with some pretty contrived scenarios in some other threads that were meant to take the touch attack mechanic to its extremes. Even then, it showed that there were better ways to handle the most favorable of scenarios. I can't remember the names else I'd point you there.
2) Why should I?
2) You haven't addressed misfires at all. You haven't even played a gunslinger. I will keep saying this as long you say it's broken without playing it.
Because misfires reduce the Gunslinger's DPR.
If the difference is already pretty much negligible BEFORE we take this additional factor into account, it seems pretty likely the gunslinger will lose out AFTER we do.
Exactly.
Overdark, you see to be forgetting that your Pepperbox misfires 10% of the time. Are you using cartridges to reload faster? Oh, then that's 15% of the time. Did you just misfire? Well, the gun now misfires 20% of the time, or 25% with the cartridge. So suddenly you have a 1/5 or 1/4 chance that your next shot will make your gun explode.
Yes, you can quick clear it out, but that takes up a move action AND a grit point. Suddenly you just lost a full round of attacks, dropping your DPR drastically. If you're down to one Grit it takes a standard action to clear the gun. If you're out of Grit, you're screwed because you can't clean it out in combat.
If you switch over to your pistol (no quick draw, so no full attack that round), you have an automatic 5% misfire, which goes to 10% with a cartridge (which you have to use to get all your attacks per round). If you misfire, you suddenly find your misfire going to 25% and 30% with a cartridge since you don't have Gun Training (Pistol). If that was just a mistake, we're still talking about a 15-20% misfire.
So yes, you have to account for your misfire. A 15% chance of your gun automatically not working is a severe problem, especially when it then compounds the automatic miss problem AND leads to the potential of destroying the weapon and damaging you. On top of that, each misfire requires you to lose a round of full attacks to fix if you want to avoid a misfire.
And then there's the funds lost in ruining the shot with a misfire.
So why are you ignoring this? Are you saying that misfires have no effect, despite all this? Can you show the DPR for the archer versus a gunslinger who has misfired in the previous round?
EDIT: Oh, and you haven't listed how much ammo you have. The archer can assume to have ammo because it's a pittance to buy. 10 gold is 200 arrows. Guns are far more expensive, so you should include those too.
If you aren't using cartridges it takes you a move action (with your Rapid Reload) to load 1 barrel on your pepper box.
Also, let's look at this attack on the Iron Golem.
Unless overdark wants to use at least a point of his precious 5 points of Grit on every single shot he makes (and accept the range penalties), he has to be within 20ft of the Golem.
Golem charges. From here on in, unless overdark uses a full withdrawl (losing a round of attacks), the Golem can stay next to him (or at least use reach) in order to pound him into the ground.
The Golem only misses overdark's AC of 26 on a roll of 1, since it has a +28 to its attacks and it gets 2 at that bonus. Its 2d10+16 per hit (so 4d10+32 per round since it can't miss) greatly outweighs overdark's 1d8+8 per shot (which auto misses at least 10% of the time).
Overdark can last between 2-3 rounds, assuming the golem scores no criticals and no attacks of opportunity are involved. The archer in the same situation can have a lot more rounds in order to attack and maneuver before the golem catches him.
If you try and calculate miss chances due to misfires or Natural 1's, the golem misses 1/20, while overdark misses at least 1/10 (more often if cartridges are being used or if he already misfired once).
So considering the gunslinger put himself directly into easy melee range, was this a good trade off in order to hit its touch AC?
Not sure how you're getting this because my archer is getting 44.25 against AC 28.
Heres what Im doing in the DPR calculator.
target ac: 28, base attack 10, STR mod 4, DEX mod 5, power attack, PBS, rapidshot, manyshot, dice average 5, enhancement 2, threat 19, crit 3, ranged STR cap -1, focus level 3, weapon training 1 and a misc +damage of 4
Why is power attack being calculated for a ranged attack?
Why is power attack being calculated for a ranged attack?Not sure how you're getting this because my archer is getting 44.25 against AC 28.
Heres what Im doing in the DPR calculator.
target ac: 28, base attack 10, STR mod 4, DEX mod 5, power attack, PBS, rapidshot, manyshot, dice average 5, enhancement 2, threat 19, crit 3, ranged STR cap -1, focus level 3, weapon training 1 and a misc +damage of 4
I noticed that also, but maybe he meant deadly aim. In any event his refusal to acknowledge gun jams, and so on is not helping his case.
On a similar note ,are the gun rules in the Campaign guide or Ultimate Combat?
edit:I found it.
Why is power attack being calculated for a ranged attack?Not sure how you're getting this because my archer is getting 44.25 against AC 28.
Heres what Im doing in the DPR calculator.
target ac: 28, base attack 10, STR mod 4, DEX mod 5, power attack, PBS, rapidshot, manyshot, dice average 5, enhancement 2, threat 19, crit 3, ranged STR cap -1, focus level 3, weapon training 1 and a misc +damage of 4I noticed that also, but maybe he meant deadly aim. In any event his refusal to acknowledge gun jams, and so on is not helping his case.
On a similar note ,are the gun rules in the Campaign guide or Ultimate Combat?
Both, but they're much more detailed in Ultimate Combat, and introduce a lot of other aspects (like the alchemical cartridges, more weapons, Grit and magic items and spells).
Has anybody been able to make a DPR formula that includes misfire chance? I'd expect a math wiz like AMiB or whoever else in the DPR olympics could make one.
Has anybody been able to make a DPR formula that includes misfire chance? I'd expect a math wiz like AMiB or whoever else in the DPR olympics could make one.
The current one works if the misfire is only on a 1. If it is on a 1 or 2 then it would have to be modified.
h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This will never exceed .95 or go below .05, obviously.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. S stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.
My take one it.
H will be limited to .95 and .10 respectively if the misfire can happen on a 2. That is the only really change. I will see if I can modify the current spreadsheet.edit:My altering of the spreadsheet failed.
Where is the build of the archer that overdark is using?
Is it in some previous page? if so can someone point it to me inm order to see it? the numbers overdark presented for the archer seem a little low to me.
thank you.
Has anybody been able to make a DPR formula that includes misfire chance? I'd expect a math wiz like AMiB or whoever else in the DPR olympics could make one.The current one works if the misfire is only on a 1. If it is on a 1 or 2 then it would have to be modified.
h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This will never exceed .95 or go below .05, obviously.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. S stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.My take one it.
H will be limited to .90 and .10 respectively if the misfire can happen on a 2. That is the only really change. I will see if I can modify the current spreadsheet.
Is there a way for it to calculate for increased misfire rates, such as due to paper cartridges or previous misfires?