Fighter / Dragon Disciple Optimization


Advice


This might turn out to be "How can we salvage this" but anyway I have been playing a Half Elf Fighter5/Bard(Arcane Duelist)1/Dragon Disciple2 for about 6+ months now from level 1. I have been trying to come up with an optimal build but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around it. So here are the character's current stats:

Str 18
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 12

Attack: The character dual wields a Bastard sword/Short sword, the following are the stats when in that situation

Bastard Sword +2=> +12/+7 / 1d10+9
Short Sword +2=> +10 / 1d6+6

Feats:TW Fighting, Exotic Weap Prof (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (B. Sword), Dodge, Weapon Spec (B.Sword), Double Slice, Toughness, Step Up

Weapon Training I (blades, heavy)

The things that I liked about the Dragon Disciple were:
-Its becoming part dragon; that's pretty damn cool
-Progression involves getting bonuses to Str and Con
-Progression gives me natural armor
-Hit dice are 1d12

Now, I also wanted the fighter part of this to be a Two-weapon fighter, without going with the path presented in the APG.

Now, I'm trying to maximize weapon damage, and while I hope the campaign keeps going I would like the character to be as good as it can be by level 13. Also, our DM has some sort of dungeon in store for us when we hit level 10, so I would like to have something solid going on by then.

I know this board has some pretty serious optimizers. I'm hoping they can take a look at this and give me some options.


I'm more about optimized flavor, and not optimized power, but I think a lot of people would ask you why you aren't two-handed fighting instead of two-weapon fighting. You could replace the half-elf's Adaptability with Ancestral Weapon to get an Elven curve blade for free (or just pick up a nodachi if you can use UC without it being an Eastern setting). You can Power Attack and crit like crazy. If you go the intimidation route, there are a bunch of useful feats that allow combat and non-combat advantages as well.

I don't know how much, or even if, you can retcon your character. Or even if you want to. Before I get too much into it, I'd want to know how much you are able and willing to change in order to maximize damage output.


Without knowing how you're been fairing previously, I'm not able to really help you out.

Dragon Desciple has 3/4 BAB progression inspite of having d12 HD. (Aside: WTF? That's soooo dumb.) So you'll really be hurting yourself interms of accuracy, especially with Two Weapon fighting.

Otherwise, everything looks like it's on its way to being O.K. go.


submit2me wrote:

I'm more about optimized flavor, and not optimized power, but I think a lot of people would ask you why you aren't two-handed fighting instead of two-weapon fighting. You could replace the half-elf's Adaptability with Ancestral Weapon to get an Elven curve blade for free (or just pick up a nodachi if you can use UC without it being an Eastern setting). You can Power Attack and crit like crazy. If you go the intimidation route, there are a bunch of useful feats that allow combat and non-combat advantages as well.

I don't know how much, or even if, you can retcon your character. Or even if you want to. Before I get too much into it, I'd want to know how much you are able and willing to change in order to maximize damage output.

My thinking at the time of creation was that two attacks for less damage were better than just one that can miss ( I wasn't solid on the two handed fighting mechanics as well). And while I still think that, I'm not as convinced of the validity of that statement.

I don't think I can retcon anything at all, as some of this stuff has been on the sheet for over 6 months.


Jeranimus Rex wrote:

Without knowing how you're been fairing previously, I'm not able to really help you out.

Dragon Desciple has 3/4 BAB progression inspite of having d12 HD. (Aside: WTF? That's soooo dumb.) So you'll really be hurting yourself interms of accuracy, especially with Two Weapon fighting.

Otherwise, everything looks like it's on its way to being O.K. go.

I think I've been hitting my opponent's ACs without too much trouble (when I can actually roll something above a 7; our table has been cursed with some of the worst die rolls I have ever seen. However the past couple sessions have had some decent die rolls). My major gripe at the moment is the damage output. granted, I do feel like I'm doing slightly more damage than the twf ranger and the summoner's eidolon, but I like to set my sights up high.

Other than that, my AC is pretty high and my hp is over 100, so I can't complain.


Uncle Fred wrote:

My thinking at the time of creation was that two attacks for less damage were better than just one that can miss ( I wasn't solid on the two handed fighting mechanics as well). And while I still think that, I'm not as convinced of the validity of that statement.

I don't think I can retcon anything at all, as some of this stuff has been on the sheet for over 6 months.

I have extremely limited experience with two-weapon fighting. But from what little I do have, I think it stinks. I thought dual-wielding bastard swords would be awesome, and maybe it can be, but I fought better when I dropped the off hand weapon and just started two-handed fighting with the main hand weapon. It made me very sad, frustrated, and I may have even wet my pants a little.

I know this is basically a "thanks for nothing" post from me. I wish I could help you out, but any of my suggestions would involve changing things that you can't change. As a fellow Dragon Disciple, though, I wish you luck in your campaign, and hope that someone else can actually help you out. =)


Alright, if you're doing comparable damage with the Ranger and Eidolon, then you should be fine going forward.

Try to get a Belt of Giant Streangth as quickly as you can, that should hep out a little more with damage, otherwise, there's very little you can do than may be adding power attack as a feat to better boost your damage, granted this decreases you accuracy, and that might actually result in your damage decreasing overall.


You're using a weapon configuration that's incompatible with spellcasting. If you were going to invest an exotic proficiency you should have gone double sword for the ability to take a hand off it as a free action for somatic components. You'd also have your weapon training and focus and specialization and effecting both attacks.

On the bright side it may not be too late since you can retrain fighter bonus feats and it still falls into the heavy blades weapon training category. There's no real reason to stay in DD after you get your second strength and natural armor boost at level 4 and with five fighter levels already you'll never be much of a spell caster.


Uncle Fred wrote:

This might turn out to be "How can we salvage this" but anyway I have been playing a Half Elf Fighter5/Bard(Arcane Duelist)1/Dragon Disciple2 for about 6+ months now from level 1. I have been trying to come up with an optimal build but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around it. So here are the character's current stats:

Str 18
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 12

Attack: The character dual wields a Bastard sword/Short sword, the following are the stats when in that situation

Bastard Sword +2=> +12/+7 / 1d10+9
Short Sword +2=> +10 / 1d6+6

Feats:TW Fighting, Exotic Weap Prof (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (B. Sword), Dodge, Weapon Spec (B.Sword), Double Slice, Toughness, Step Up

Weapon Training I (blades, heavy)

The things that I liked about the Dragon Disciple were:
-Its becoming part dragon; that's pretty damn cool
-Progression involves getting bonuses to Str and Con
-Progression gives me natural armor
-Hit dice are 1d12

Now, I also wanted the fighter part of this to be a Two-weapon fighter, without going with the path presented in the APG.

Now, I'm trying to maximize weapon damage, and while I hope the campaign keeps going I would like the character to be as good as it can be by level 13. Also, our DM has some sort of dungeon in store for us when we hit level 10, so I would like to have something solid going on by then.

I know this board has some pretty serious optimizers. I'm hoping they can take a look at this and give me some options.

Your strength is a tad low, but my primary measure for fixing that on the DD is locked out due to your low CHA (the Eldritch Heritage chain, which gives a STR bonus if you take Abyssal). Honest opinion: Get to a fighter level where you can untrain a previous bonus feat and swap out your TWF feats and just go two handed Bastard Sword, with a shield handy in case you feel the need for AC. You may be able to sneak it in quickly, but doing so will disrupt your DD levels.


Alright, I will certainly try and make those changes by picking up a level of fighter or two (probably two). But beyond the changes, what feats or magical items should I be looking to get in the future?


Quote:

You're using a weapon configuration that's incompatible with spellcasting. If you were going to invest an exotic proficiency you should have gone double sword for the ability to take a hand off it as a free action for somatic components. You'd also have your weapon training and focus and specialization and effecting both attacks.

On the bright side it may not be too late since you can retrain fighter bonus feats and it still falls into the heavy blades weapon training category. There's no real reason to stay in DD after you get your second strength and natural armor boost at level 4 and with five fighter levels already you'll never be much of a spell caster.

+1. The biggest problem -- in terms of pure optimization -- is that you need a double weapon. You also aren't applying 2 major feats to a weapon (your off-hand short sword).

You also need Power Attack. Sadly it's so good it's silly not to take it, even for TWF builds.

I don't really like taking Double Slice unless I can get +3 damage out of it. If Str was 20+ I'd say OK. But right now Power Attack would be a superior switch.

It's not completely unplayable, but it's sub-optimal and unfocused. The Step Up APG feat chain is not bad, but with Dodge and Toughness it's going to be a while until you get to the good stuff.


You should above all else get to level 4 DD to pick up the free strength bonuses first.

Get Gloves of Dueling.

When you can pick up a pair of sunblades (from memory) asap. The ones that counts as both bastard sword and shortswords.

Edit: Yes Power Attack should be your next feat.


Jeranimus Rex wrote:

Without knowing how you're been fairing previously, I'm not able to really help you out.

Dragon Desciple has 3/4 BAB progression inspite of having d12 HD. (Aside: WTF? That's soooo dumb.) So you'll really be hurting yourself interms of accuracy, especially with Two Weapon fighting.

Otherwise, everything looks like it's on its way to being O.K. go.

Strength bonus does nothing?


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Jeranimus Rex wrote:

Without knowing how you're been fairing previously, I'm not able to really help you out.

Dragon Desciple has 3/4 BAB progression inspite of having d12 HD. (Aside: WTF? That's soooo dumb.) So you'll really be hurting yourself interms of accuracy, especially with Two Weapon fighting.

Otherwise, everything looks like it's on its way to being O.K. go.

Strength bonus does nothing?

Strength bonus is a net benefit if and only if you pull out after four levels. Maybe. It delays weapon training, though, which is as good as two points of strength for a two weapon build with double slice. You also had to lose a point of BAB to qualify for it and with only one bard level you can't perform to make that up.

I'd say you'd be better off either going straight fighter or fighter with enough bard to get some of the good buffs and no PrC if you want to be mostly fighter with a dash of spontaneous arcane caster.

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