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"Rather than type out an entire build allow me to post the pros and cons of each build straight from Rogue Eidolon's guide since you are unable to read it yourself."
Pipedreamsam, not too sure why the negative and condescending tone is necessary. I have clearly stated that I read Eidolon's guide and it was that guide that inspired me to want to try out a rogue. Eidolon's guide is excellent for sure but in the process of maintaining the dialogue in this thread, I have been given some excellent advice that has helped me build an exciting new character that I am very interested in playing. I have now chosen some feats that I never would have chosen before.
My final build is what I posted above with a few minor adjustments. I won't waste a feat on quickdraw as I am desperate for both AC and Will saves. Instead, I will use the spiked gauntlets mentioned above. Also, I won't get greater improved feint as that doesn't seem to benefit much; though it might benefit the rest of the group as the monster will remain flat footed till the start of my next turn. So instead of those two feats I took Iron Will and Dodge.
Now for the good news. Last night we had our first session and the new build was a killing machine. I am so glad I took the feint line as my tanks, at least last night, were unable to get into a position to flank. On our first skirmish, I took out 3 ogre-like creatures solo while the rest of the party took out the other three. On our second skirmish we encountered some kind of shadow dancer rogue undead thing and I ended up soloing him for most of the fight while the other three bozos fumbled with a sorcerer spell failure that ended up blinding the three of them.
Thanks again to all of you for your suggestions, advice, and experience. I believe this character is going to be a lot of fun to play.
PS @Asteldian you are correct. Once I commit to feint that uses the move action and I only get one sneak from that attack round. My DM pointed that out last night 8)
I am surprised you do not feel Greater Improved Feint is worthwhile. It seemed to me the Feint Feat chain was introduced specifically for the Rogue. Does greater Improved Feint not enable the Feint to become a swift Action? Thereby allowing you to full attack and therefore get multiple sneak attacks in a round either via TWF (which your char does not have, so non issue) or at high enough lvl multiple attacks (which I believe is relevant to your char)
Does greater Improved Feint not enable the Feint to become a swift Action?
It does not--still a move action. The Improved Feint chain is a trap, since you have to position yourself in a spot where you could have made a full attack.
Now, the Improved Two Weapon Feint feat from Ultimate Combat is delicious. It is far and away the best option for a feinting Rogue (the feint lasts longer than with Greater Feint, until the END of the Rogue's next turn, and it only takes up a single attack, rather than a move action).
It looks like the advantage of Greater Feint (not available until level 8 for a Rogue, thanks to the +6 BAB prereq) is aimed at...
That said, since you're using a reach weapon, it might not be a bad idea to take Greater Feint when it's available. Reach weapons mean more AoOs. The only drawback is it kind of locks down your tactics a bit (relying on Feint more often), which isn't so useful against animals or mindless beings, who are very resistant to feints.
When feinting against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
ADDITIONAL:
Since you're feinting, you obviously have a pretty high Bluff check. Bluff is a wonderful skill to use in combat if it's high, because it lets you effectively hide in plain sight at -10 to stealth. This could give an alternative to Feinting (distract, move+hide, SA next round), should the enemy be resistant, especially since this distract-to-hide use of bluff does not have any exceptions by intelligence or creature type.
lets you effectively hide in plain sight at -10 to stealth
Not quite. You still have to move behind cover or concealment of some sort. There are 2 factors to stealth
1) Having something to hide behind
2) Not being observed
A rogue standing behind some leaves is like one of those magic pictures: you look at it but you don't SEE it. Once you see the rogue though, you can't dont UNsee it. Your eye follows the rogue to his hiding place. The bluff check deals only with number 2: the rogue says "look a monkey" he is no longer observed, and he can find something to hide behind.
Not quite. You still have to move behind cover or concealment of some sort. There are 2 factors to stealth
1) Having something to hide behind
2) Not being observedA rogue standing behind some leaves is like one of those magic pictures: you look at it but you don't SEE it. Once you see the rogue though, you can't dont UNsee it. Your eye follows the rogue to his hiding place. The bluff check deals only with number 2: the rogue says "look a monkey" he is no longer observed, and he can find something to hide behind.
Hide in plain sight (sans camouflage) still requires cover or concealment, doesn't it? I thought it let you perform a stealth action while being watched.
I thought it let you perform a stealth action while being watched.
-If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
So sans camouflage, the rogue needs something to hide behind, he just doesn't need the bluff check to go "look a monkey!" for a distraction.
I thought it let you perform a stealth action while being watched.
-If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
So sans camouflage, the rogue needs something to hide behind, he just doesn't need the bluff check to go "look a monkey!" for a distraction.
Than you agree with me: Bluff check to distract can function as a "poor rogue's" answer to Hide In Plain Sight.
Pre-condition: Being observed.
High level Ranger: Employ H.I.P.S and hide via concealment/cover/camouflage. 1 Move action later, hidden. Still has standard action.
Rogue: Bluff/distract (standard), then hide (movement) via concealment/cover at -10.
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Have you looked at the Mithral Chain Shirt?
Do NOT spend money on MCS if your eventual DEX will be higher than 22 (as it usually is for rogues and archers).
Boneless Leather is what you really want (so start saving your pennies)....or Celestial Chain (twice as expensive, but the best armor in the game).
I have read eidolons guide to rogues here on the message boards and that is what makes me want to be a rogue. However, every time i try to open the one on the site you linked (and when others link the same site) it doesnt seem to load properly.
For some reason my brain only registered the second sentence leading me to believe that you were literally unable to read the guide and I was not trying to insult your ability to grasp the material. Going back I can see that from your perspective it was in fact condescending. This was not my intention and I apologize for offending you and my inability to read (kinda ironic huh?).
Glad to hear about your success hope it continues.
Listen, all of you STR rogues out there are building your rogues WRONG. Plain and simple. You're WASTING ABILITY POINTS for what, extra damage? Get Agile put on your weapon and stack your dex high or put the ability points elsewhere. Think you cant use a 2h weapon with Weapon Finesse? WRONG! Choose an elf or get proficiency with the Elven Curve Blade! Make sure it's an Agile weapon to maximize your damage.
Now, as you are pondering what to do for combat, might I suggest the feats:
Level 1: Skill Focus: Stealth
Level 3: Improved Initiative
Level 6: Hellcat Stealth
After lvl 6 you can choose more combat feats if you truly wish, but I would suggest starting to build Skill Focus: UMD and other similar feats that are more skill focused. Continue on to the rogue talents I suggest to find out why.
Rogue Talents
Level 2: Finesse Rogue
Level 4: Combat Trick: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 6: Fast Getaway
Level 8: Underhanded OR Fast Stealth
For combat, you can stealth even while being OBSERVED with Hellcat Stealth but at a -10 penalty. If you choose to be a halfling, you can get Go Unnoticed instead, but that is ONLY good for the surprise round against flat-footed opponents. You don't take a -10 penalty, but I believe in the long-run it's far less useful.
Get in close to your target while stealthed, then make a sneak attack next round (because you need your move action to use Fast Getaway). Attack, but don't make a full attack, then withdraw thanks to Fast Getaway and stealth at the same time. If possible, position yourself flanking another opponent so next round you can repeat. If only one opponent remains and you are confident you can kill him if you hit him with max sneak damage, do a full attack and use your Underhanded ability (relies on CHA modifier). Your party will be most stunned.
At 10th level you gain access to the advanced talents and I believe with them along with the few remaining rogue talents are enough to accommodate the rest of your combat needs as a rogue. Use your feats at this point to whatever else is needed of your rogue by the party.
Ability point allocation is easy. Here are their priorities from most to least important (1-6 respectively):
(6)STR Dont add a thing into here
(1)DEX End-game your most important ability. Early game a slightly higher INT score is better for skill growth
(3)CON Tied for 3rd best stat depending on how you play your rogue. Better for combat rogues, less important for social rogues
(2)INT At least a +3 so you can get out of any jam thanks to your large range of skills
(5)WIS Good only if you are concerned with will saves, Sense Motive checks, and perception checks
(3)CHA Tied for 3rd best stat depending on how you play your rogue. Better for social rogues, less important than CON for combat rogues
For example, for my halfling rogue using EPIC point system, I put DEX up to 15 (will constantly grow this throughout the game every 4th lvl), my starting INT was 17 and at 4th lvl I made it into 18 (wont spend ability points into it any further), and I spent 14 points into CHA. My halfling stats are as follows:
STR 8 (-1)
DEX 17 (4) + + + + 21 (5) at lvl 20 with priority on bonuses from items
CON 10 (0)
INT 17 (3) + 18 (4) at lvl 4
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 16 (3)
I only spent more ability points into INT for my rogue because I'm a halfling and I'm going to NEED Escape Artist and other skills to try and cover his weaknesses, such as CMD. It also doesn't hurt to have a decent skill monkey in the group if other players fail their checks.
Calm down and look at the date on the post. This was made long before Agile weapon property was out. Even with the Agile weapon property there are much better builds then making a dex base rogue. And if you start with a Con of 10, and do your job. You should die around level 5 to 8. If not sooner.
Sir, I believe I was calm. I saw the date on the post but since this is the only rogue page I can find besides Eidolon's guide I figured I'd post how to REALLY build a rogue.
As a rogue with 10con, you should be well aware to stay out of melee combat if possible and rely on either a shortbow or crossbow. Take the first shot into melee, then when your tankier party members have your opponent's attention in round two, you can decide whether or not you want to move in for melee attacks.
Since you didn't fully read my post, at level 6 you would essentially never have to rely on your CON for anything more than a fortitude save. Your dex and armor will help your AC along with Fast Getaway from any encounter you throw yourself into. If you have a problem comprehending that, you might want to play a barbarian instead of the rogue. You'll get your CON and major dmg with the same AC.
Good day
i think that a rogue with STR > DEX
and also, 1 big weapon > 2 small one's.
that is because you cant always sneak - than you might as well learn to power attack as well.
If you want a 2h weapon get an Elven Curve Blade. You can use Weapon Finesse with it and dont have to waste ability points into STR to use it. If you don't do sneak damage to an enemy, that's just the game balancing itself. All classes have their strengths and weaknesses. If you want a damage beast roll a barbarian, sorc, monk, etc. There is absolutely no need to sacrifice points into STR when you're going to have hard hitters in your party. Let your sneak damage do the talking and leave the strength to the big boys so you dont draw aggro.
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Listen, all you STR rogues out there are building your rogues JUST FINE!
There's nothing wrong with a str based rogue. It has plenty of benefits.
Heck, you can even pick up medium and heavy armor proficiency if you really want.
As long as you're having fun with your character, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Listen, all you STR rogues out there are building your rogues JUST FINE!
There's nothing wrong with a str based rogue. It has plenty of benefits.
Heck, you can even pick up medium and heavy armor proficiency if you really want.
As long as you're having fun with your character, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
If you go medium or heavy armor you no longer get the benefit of Evasion, you have penalties to stealth checks, and you have armor check penalties. Unless you're building a rogue with low DEX none of those things matter to you. If you're building a rogue with low DEX, why not play a class more dependent on STR in the first place, such as a monk, fighter, or barbarian?
*facepalm*