I was looking over all the info on the Sunken Queen and Runelord Sorshen provided in the final part of the adventure, and a couple things popped out at me:
1) The Sunken Queen was built to require Fly spells to get around--Transmutation magic, in other words.
2) Ileosa used the Everdawn Pool, the masterstroke of Sorshen's magic, to create Dread Wraiths--a Necromantic effect.
Problem: as the Runelord of Lust, Sorshen was completely incapable of using Transmutation or Necromancy.
Anyone have an explanation for this?
I know this was posted awhile back, but I thought I'd try to re-establish the question.
Did anyone do anything with this?
I'm a ways away from running Chapter 6, so I haven't done my own research yet.
Well, the simplest answer would be that Sorshen had other people make the Sunken Queen and the Everdawn Pool. It may be that she did the research and designed the Pool and the Queen, but she enslaved others to build it for her.
Also, maybe she took that feat, of whose name escapes me, that allows her to cast spells from one of her opposed schools. Other's enchant the Queen, while she makes the pool, since she can cast necromancy spells now.
I have read up on the Thassilonian Magic (in Inner Sea Magic)to know that the runelords had their specific opposed schools and those spells literally were absent from their spell lists, no 'its one level higher', just nada. The best she could possibly have done was use a wand of fly, utilizing use magic device to trick the wand into working.
The problem I have with that is, why would she involve her two opposing schools of magic for her culminating efforts to stay young and beautiful? She wouldn't know zilch about that kind of magic in the first place so how could she have made it work?
The only reasonable explanation I can come up with for the flying part is that she didn't want any of her cronies, who likely would also have her same line of magic, wouldn't have fly either. That wouldn't explain necromancy effects though unless the pool can do a whole lot more and it wasn't originally Sorchen's idea to create in the first place.
I dunno, just seems a bit off to me.
Oh I know, but I was referring to the Opposition Research Arcane Discovery. This would allow Sorshen to restore Necromancy as a school of magic she can cast.
The flying aspect of the Sunken Queen isn't really that big of an issue as she could always hired another caster to provide access to the fly spell in the creation of the monolith.
The other thing to consider is that Sorshen was a 20+ wizard. She may very well have discovered methods to circumvent her restrictions that others simply weren't powerful enough to perform.
Hell, she can cast Wish, which allows a character to use opposite spells, even in 3.5 if I recall correctly. Using wish to power an artifact like the Everdawn Pool and to make her 'fortress' fly is totally within reason in my opinion, and fits the theme of the spell and fantasy itself.
There are a fair number of non-Transmutation options for flying, like Phantom Steed or Dimension Door or simply charming a flying creature to chauffeur you about.
The necromantic pool is possibly a little harder to explain, unless you accept the possibility that Sorshen just took a +5 DC crafting penalty to ignore any necromantic prerequisites when she made it.
I'm not really trying to be critical either, but if I know my PCs they may figure it out and ask me the same questions. Or they may be too busy trying to stay alive (if i'm doing my job). Hmmm.....
I think if you use Pathfinder instead of D&D 3.5 rule set, the wizard specialization rules are changed so that the opposed schools aren't forbidden, they just incur a penalty. So having Transmutation as an opposed school doesn't mean the NPC can't cast Fly, it just means they take a penalty to do so.
Thassilonian magic is a special version of wizard specialization that works kind of like 2E specialization (i.e. your banned schools are assigned for you and those schools are really banned, no foolin').
Hmm, I mentioned it above, but Sorshen is a 20+ wizard and has access to Wish which would allow her to bypass her school restriction. She can duplicate any 7th level arcane spell even if it's prohibited and any 6th level spell even if it's prohibited. One could even argue that she Wished away her school restrictions, but keeping the benefit.
Here are the two entries I've found that I think started the confusion.
Attuning it to a specific purpose requires long and complex rituals; given enough time, the Everdawn Pool can be used to create undead, spawn mindless automations of flesh and blood, create simulacrums of those who bathe within, heal wounds, restore life to the dead, or even grant eternal youth.Page 61 mentions two possible uses for the PCs:
Inherent Bonuses: By infusing the blood of the Everdawn Pool with ichor harvested from a fiendish or celestial great wyrm dragon, a bather is granted a +5 inherent bonus to an ability score.
True Portal: Various rare gems can be used to temporarily change the pool’s color—those who enter the pool are then whisked away to any number of strange or exotic realms to explore.
If you really stop and look at the possible uses of the Everdawn Pool, the abilities are all, theoretically, possible through the use of the Wish spell with the possible exception of Eternal Youth (which is arguable). Even then, that requires the sacrifice of thousands of people, and when you have collected the blood and souls of that many people; theoretically anything is possible when it comes to magic.
I really do think Wish was the primary spell used in the creation of the Everdawn Pool and used to enchant the Sunken Queen to fly. It neatly overcomes all the restrictions of the Thassilonian Specialist archetype, and all the mentioned powers are within the limits of the spell Wish.
Creative Director
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Regarding flight—there are more ways to fly than casting spells. Sorshen had plenty of resources available to her to grant her flight without needing to cast the spell. Assuming she didn't have some other thing, like perhaps a template, to make her able to fly.
As for the Everdawn Pool... as noted above, there's FAR more to it than the ability to make undead.
And it's worth keeping in mind that Sorshen was far above 20th level; she was one of the most powerful spellcasters to ever grace the Inner Sea Region, in fact. Since we don't yet know what a wizard higher than 20th level is capable of... it's kind of pointless trying to reverse engineer how Sorshen may or may not have created these effects... if she even did. At the very least... she's got some POWERFUL enchantment effects. Why worry about needing to cast fly if you can dominate person an army of wizard minions to do that for you?
Also, remember that CotCT was written in 3.5 before pathfinder and inner sea magic.
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Creative Director
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So in other words, plot holes should be plastered over by any means possible. Gaining access to flight and some necromancy based items aren't that important to try and rationalize mechanically. The Runelords are whatever you need them to be, exactly at the moment you want them. Specially given that the players aren't going to be directly interacting with them at all this story, it's just more of an aside to what's going on.
If the players do ask, it should be well accepted to say, "How or what happened related to the Runelords, isn't important to this story exactly. All that matter is that, what's here is here, right now in the present."
This is the impression I'm getting.
That, or perhaps as the GM running the adventure you take the unexpected player questions and just run with them, taking their questions and using the answers you provide to make things more interesting.
So, if a player asks, "How can Sorshen have made an object that uses necromantic effects when she couldn't use necromancy?" you could shrug enigmatically, have the player make a Knowledge check, and if they roll high enough, say something like, "You're right, that IS unusual. Perhaps she didn't make the pool at all, or perhaps there's more to Sorshen than 10,000 year old rumor and fragmentary records have thus far revealed?"
A player question should be an opportunity to ADD to the game, not detract from it. Even if the adventure itself doesn't completely provide all the information you need to make the answer... you should be able to ad lib something that your players would like. You know them better than we do, after all.
In any event, it's not a plot hole at all, since who made the pool or how Sorshen could fly (potion of fly being the least expensive solution) doesn't really matter to the adventure's actual plot.
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The appropriate answer is, "You don't know enough about who Sorshen was or what her capabilities were to judge what she was or was not capable of."
The module doesn't need to offer a defense because there is nothing to defend. There is not enough information about the capabilities/ limitations of Sorshen available to us to determine what she could/could not have made/done.
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I have my own theory. The rune lord of lust would often have affairs with the other rune lords over and over again .... She used them to build it for her
For someone who can't cast necromancy spells, Sorshen seems to be involved with a lot of necromancy.
With regard to the Opposition Research arcane discovery (UM), it has been established by JJ in another thread that Thassilonian Specialists could _not_ use it to get around their 2e-like school restrictions.
So Use Magic Device skill and "getting others to do it" seem to be the easiest solutions. Plus "Yes, that's a mystery, isn't it?" :)
also it was an issue that arose 2 years ago my guess is, its been solved:)