Re: Character's death at the hands of Great Axe wielding Ulfens


GM Discussion

Silver Crusade 5/5

I am just curious how people would handle this situation.

Last night I was running "The Frozen Fingers of Midnight".

One of my Players did a stupid thing. A very stupid thing. he picked a lock on an iron barred gate, in broad daylight, in front of the guards protecting the estate. after a warning they killed him.

Spoiler:

While in plain sight of the Ulfen guards guarding the manor, the rogue PC, decided to pick the lock of the iron barred gate that the ulfen's were standing on the other side of in the courtyard perhaps 15 to 20 feet back.

The PCs had initially engaged the Ulfens in conversation and were told " Skleg wants no visitors he is sick in bead move along "

The 3rd level Taldan rogue noticed that something was amiss with the backwards talberds, and decided to pick the lock on the gate.

I then informed him that " Picking the lock in front of the guards where they can see you through the barred iron gate, is probably a very bad idea, not only can they see you, but they have pikes. "

The player playing the rogue was still intent on picking the lock. and he began doing so.

So the guards said "Hey stop that now...Oh Jeeze thats not a good idea.....If you don't stop that now we are gonna have to hurt ya". (yes my Ulfens sound like they are from Fargo)

(none of the other players mentioned that their PCs mentioned that they were readying an action)

The rogue continued picking the lock. The ulfen's level their pole arms and charge. I rolled a 19 and then a 17 to confirm the first critical on the rogue, and then for the second attack, I rolled a 20 followed by a second 20.

I rolled more then enough damage to kill the PC with the pole arms..I then noticed in the text,

that the Ulfen's had Great Axes instead of Pole arms. So, looking for an excuse to re roll the

dice, (pole arms d10s and great axes d12s, I was hoping for a lower roll) I told the player, he

had only been hit by one critical, but it was a great axe. So he took 1d12+4, and 3d12+12

points of damage....after it was all added up, and someone reminded me that the damage would

be +6 with the great axe being wielded by two hands.


I think the total damage was 58 points...more then enough to kill him.

I asked him how much prestige his 3rd level rogue had....he said he had 15 points...

This is what i did.

Spoiler:

I required him to pay all 15 Prestige points pluss 375 gold pieces the monitary equivalent of a prestige point. The party negotiated with a near by fruit juice seller for use of a cart and donkey, and his PC's body was brought to a temple of Calistra ( his PC's faith) and the character was raised from the dead, and the adventure continued with player involved in the game. I think we only lost 10 to 15 mintutes

how would you adjudicate a player being one prestige point short of a raise dead spell?

Grand Lodge 3/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Ireland—Newtownabbey

ElyasRavenwood wrote:
How would you adjudicate a player being one prestige point short of a raise dead spell?

They'd either be looking for some way to raise the 5k+ in cash or generating a new character. If they're short PA then they're short PA. Their faction doesn't love them enough to raise them yet. I think that's pretty clear cut and not really open to debate if you're playing in an organised play setting.

Of course, if it's not organised play, go to town, do whatever you and your players think is appropriate.


ElyasRavenwood wrote:

I am just curious how people would handle this situation.

(none of the other players mentioned that their PCs mentioned that they were readying an action)

They're not in initiative so they cannot ready actions. You didn't mention any initiative being rolled, nor the barrier (which would be a barrier) being out of the way.

You mentioned some other specific things so not seeing these I figured that I would ask...

It's always good procedure after a PC death to do two things: 1st a quick review of everything at the time, and then 2nd a more detailed review of everything after the slot.

This not only makes sure that no error occurs, but can smooth feelings out over it as the player knows both that you take it seriously and that everything was done fairly.

-James

Shadow Lodge 4/5 ****

Dead. They can pay to get raised if they can get together the moeny which the party probably can including their rewards for the scenario.

Stupidity + Bad Luck = Death, don't be nice and sugar coat it.

3/5

I'm all for sugar coating myself.

Suffice it to say that the player did something that would get him killed. It doesn't sound like combat was initiated in the traditional sense, and so there was limited opportunity for players to react... but it also doesn't sound like it made much of a difference, the way your dice were.

I personally find your call OK, although I'm not certain I would have let him get away with the PA dubiousness at my table. I might give exception for someone who isn't a very experienced table; people who aren't as familiar with the rules need some leeway.

For the record, I've been the judge for at least one TPK (in living greyhawk). Now *that* sort of "oops" makes you really feel bad...


Tangaroa wrote:

It doesn't sound like combat was initiated in the traditional sense, and so there was limited opportunity for players to react... but it also doesn't sound like it made much of a difference, the way your dice were.

If that's the case then it was handled wrong. As to the last bit.. who knows.

Both groups were aware of the other, so there was no surprise. If combat was going to occur then initiative should have been rolled.

Likewise if there were any barriers between the combatants then they should factor into the combat.

Hand-waving any of this is, imho, a mistake. Regardless of how 'stupid' a player's actions they should not have their PCs killed out of hand. Sure the DM rolled well, but if he didn't roll all the dice then that's a problem.

Perhaps if he had let the PCs roll init the party could have rolled just as well if not better and taken out the enemy in question before their high rolls could have occurred.

-James


If the gate is barred and both parties can see each other then the other players should have been able to react. Seeing the others getting ready to lunge forward should give the characters the knowledge that something is about to happen. If the players aren't saying 'hey!' then the DM should have also given the others the heads up... "Do any of you want to do anything?"

imo.

Grand Lodge

Did the player learn anything from the experience? I suspect not.

Unless it was a child, I wouldn't be particularly generous.

2/5 *

Honestly, I felt the GMs at Gencon are too nice at times. I don't want them to be mean, but they should be fair, which sometimes means kicking someone's ass. I saw that 2 characters that should have died (it was obvious) and one of my characters should have gotten his ass kicked as well (not killed, but a good beatdown was probably needed).

So your beatdown was warranted and was fair imo.

Having said that, unless all 58 points came from the single axe crit (which should have averaged to 42 damage), you could have resolved the first attack before doing the second attack, and not attacked with the soldier that killed him. No death would have solved the problem.

Regarding the raise dead, I would have done as you had done, take all his prestige and some gold as well. To me fun > rules (and he almost had enough prestige), but of course that probably bothers rules sticklers. They'd rather run people out of the campaign than bend rules and keep players happy.

Quote:
Did the player learn anything from the experience? I suspect not.

Does it matter if they "learned" anything? They lost 15 PA and effectively paid for the rez. Is it our job to "teach" players? lol.

Grand Lodge 3/5

I guess I'm one of those rules sticklers Jason refers to :)

For me, PA expenditure is one of the hard-coded rules of PFS, and should not be worked around.

That said, there were a lot of other ways around the situation. The characters could have pooled for a raise (I would even have let them use credit from what they were getting that session). The rogue could have been smarter. The dice could have been resolved separately (would have probably saved the rogue).

Or you could have let it stand.

BTW, Nic Logue's character got knocked to -9 (3.5 rules) in the same encounter during the very first running of a PFS scenario :)

Silver Crusade 5/5

Thank you all for taking the time to answer this post.

Hindsight of course is always much better. I realize now, one of the things I should have done Just after the Ulfen guard said “"Hey stop that now...Oh Jeeze that’s not a good idea...If you don't stop that now we are gonna have to hurt ya" was to ask for initiative just after I described that the Ulfen Guards had lowered their Halberds and were chargeing. That would have probably gotten everyone’s attention. As it was, I think everyone watched the unfolding events with the same fascination one might watch the proverbial impending train wreck.

The player who’s character was “disarmed” and killed, (yes I made that horrible joke), took things pretty well, at 19, he said, “well that’s ok, these things happen, I can make another character.”

The PCs retreated, went around a corner, found a fruit seller, bargained to rent his mule and cart, (another amusing moment), and took their dead colleague to a “temple” of Callistra to have him raised from the dead. There were of course lots of jokes about what the priestess would do to raise the thief from the dead.

Did the Player learn anything? Well Ill find out next week…I have “City of Strangers Part 1: the Shadow Gambit planned”. The PCs have already gone through “the God’s mouth Heresy” so I think they will enjoy returning to Kaer Maga.

As for the Death and Prestige spent, I suppose if he had 14 or 13 PP that would be another matter but I wanted to keep the game going, and to minimize the time a player was sidelined, to me the 15 pp, and the cash equivalent of one more PP seemed fair to me. If he gets killed in this coming adventure, he won’t have anything to fall back upon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ElyasRavenwood wrote:

I am just curious how people would handle this situation.

Last night I was running "The Frozen Fingers of Midnight".

One of my Players did a stupid thing. A very stupid thing. he picked a lock on an iron barred gate, in broad daylight, in front of the guards protecting the estate. after a warning they killed him.

**

We have a saying in our local group... "Stupidity leads to character generation."

The Exchange 5/5

Frozen Fingers spoiler:
This is just for the benefit of anyone who is running this scenario in the future. The encounter starts with the gate into the courtyard OPEN, and the Ulfen guards standing outside of the front door to the manor. The front door is locked (DC 25) and the Ulfens have the key. They try to dismiss the PCs but if anyone starts getting bent out of shape or makes trouble the guards will back down and tell the PCs they can see Skelg. The guards say they need to lock the gate before they can leave their post at the front door. They walk past the PCs to the gate, swing it closed and lock it with a key. I suggest the PCs should get a Sense Motive before the guards attack them (surprise round) unless the PCs have guessed what is really going on (recognizing the inside-out tabbards). After the PCs have dealt with the guards they'll have the key to open the front door without any trouble.

This doesn't change the fact that a crit from a great axe is going to ruin your day.


Doug Miles wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

This doesn't change the fact that a crit from a great axe is going to ruin your day.

Proposed Tactics:

If the PCs and the 'enemy' are aware of one another then there is no surprise round, rather simple initiative is called for...

It is a common mistake and/or house rule.

I'm bringing it up, not to nit pick, but because the original setting had essentially the same thing happen but even worse.

The OP basically described the following:
"We will attack you soon. We're going to attack now... Surprise round"

This is wrong, and its why I suggest to the DMs out there that if you have a PC death at the table you follow a 2 step process:

1. Quickly recheck things at the moment to see if you've done anything wrong (like forget to call for initiative, misread what weapons they have/what attack bonus, etc). If you catch it here then you can fix it immediately.

2. At the end of the slot carefully go over things with the player. Even go as far as to let them see stat blocks (as they can GM this later after all). Having two sets of eyes on things can be very helpful here.

If you follow this then the player will know:

1. That you are definitely trying to be fair to them.
2. That there were no mistakes and that their PC died 'fairly'.

I've found that it smooths out feelings and removes the potential feel of 'us vs GM', etc. Also it can catch mistakes and I, for one, don't want to look back and say 'crap I did that wrong'.

-James

Silver Crusade 5/5

Doug Miles, thank you for the clarification concerning the courtyard gates being open.

James Maissen, going over things with the Player who's character died at the end of the session is a good idea. I will try to keep that in mind, in case i get another pair of ulfen guards that are saying " hey stop that...if you continue we are gonna have to hurt ya!"

Lazerx that is pretty funy.

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