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PFS Gunslinger Question


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Grand Lodge ***

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

I usually GM and not play so when I got the chance to play in a game today I decided to go Gunslinger so I have a better understanding of the class for the future. I've come up with three questions:

1) If a firearm ends the session with the broken condition does this transfer to the next session?

2) If the firearm explodes is it gone or available at the start of the next session? (I would imagine it would be gone... but I would have lost my musket today if I didn't stop to fix it... and the thought of coming up with 1500 for a new one after my first run with this guy would suuuck)

3. Gunsmithing Feat: Is it PFS legal to spend the 300g to upgrade the starter weapon to masterwork since this option is not available to anything else?

Quote:
Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.

Thanks in advance!


From the Additional Resources document for PFS:

Quote:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item.

Since if does not allow you to create firearms in PFS play, I would say that includes upgrading a non-masterwork gun as well.

Also, the broken condition would exist til you get it repaired, just like any other piece of equipment, regardless of how many scenarios you go before fixing it.

And as with anything else that is destroyed during a scenario, your musket would be gone for good.

Of course, some of this would depend on whether you get access to the Mend or Repair spells, either from a fellow adventurer or purchased from your Faction or an NPC caster.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—Melbourne aka KestlerGunner

Just as a note, if you have a wizard in your party, treat them kindly and their 'mending' cantrip should be a big help for this kind of worry.

Aside from that, am I right in thinking that after your first mission you should have the funds to upgrade to masterwork?


No, weapons and armor cannot be upgraded to masterwork in PFS play, they have to start that way when you buy them.

Grand Lodge ***

Thanks Enevhar that's pretty much what I had thought for all 3. And Kestler I would imagine you would have the 300g after any scenario, but since the base weapon its self costs 1,500 (for the musket) I'm guessing somewhere in the lvl 2 range you would be able to get a masterwork version if you don't spend alot on other things... like ammo.

Osirion *** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Buford aka bartgroks

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

From the Additional Resources document for PFS:

Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder.

But nowhere in the guide do they state that the Gunsmithing feat does not grant the ability "restoring a broken firearm" Not being able to upgrade the weapon to masterwork makes sense because that is banned in general. Nothing points towards use of the feat not being able to repair {remove the broken state from} the gun.

Osirion

Gunslinger is kind of a special beast though, and I think the ability for a gunslinger to improve his base gun to masterwork should be looked at, considering it IS part of the base rules. No other class that I can think of is dependent on a specific weapon that has a tendency to self-destruct, that also costs 1500g.

In case you were not aware of how guns work, if you roll a 1-2 on your attack, it breaks. If you again roll a 1-4 after its broken, it explodes and is destroyed (unless it is magical). I saw the chance for a gunslinger's weapon to be destroyed twice in his first mod. If it was destroyed, he'd have to wait 3-4 adventures before he can even replace his gun.

This class is already very high maintenance cost compared to any other. I don't see any harm in allowing a gunslinger to upgrade his base gun to masterwork for 300g as this is actually in the rules under the gunslinger feat and intended to offset some of the ridiculous costs.

Grand Lodge ***

High Maintenance is an understatement... my character was debating most shots with "is he worth 6gp". And I rolled two 1's in a row, thankfully I did a quick clear in between!

Hehe after the caster color sprayed the bad guys one of the fighters wanted to push them off the cliff into the sea... After I let him know it would be worth 6 gold to stop that (yes I know there is no PVP), he got the point the party was against killing disabled foes.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
No, weapons and armor cannot be upgraded to masterwork in PFS play, they have to start that way when you buy them.

This does not appear to be the case for Gunslinger. Normally, you cannot pay someone to upgrade your weapon. However, paying the 300gp and using your Gunsmithing ability to upgrade the weapon seems to be a special exception to the normal rule.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
No, weapons and armor cannot be upgraded to masterwork in PFS play, they have to start that way when you buy them.
This does not appear to be the case for Gunslinger. Normally, you cannot pay someone to upgrade your weapon. However, paying the 300gp and using your Gunsmithing ability to upgrade the weapon seems to be a special exception to the normal rule.

I don't think that is Authorized for PFS.

Grand Lodge ***

hmmm great multiple knowledgeable people with conflicting answers lol.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fumihasa wrote:
hmmm great multiple knowledgeable people with conflicting answers lol.

this should help..

Bob is Always Wrong...;)

This is from Additional Resources.

additional Resources wrote:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.

It only allows what it says it allows, which does not include upgrading your weapon to masterwork.

Qadira *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
Fumihasa wrote:
hmmm great multiple knowledgeable people with conflicting answers lol.

this should help..

Bob is Always Wrong...;)

This is from Additional Resources.

additional Resources wrote:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.
It only allows what it says it allows, which does not include upgrading your weapon to masterwork.

The Additional Resources page is simply replacing the "Crafting Firearms" and "Crafting Ammunition" section of the feat, not the other sections. The remainder of the feat is legal for society play. The "Special" section at the end that lets you repair the broken firearm and make it masterwork for 300 gp. In addition the "Restoring a Broken Firearm" section is unaltered by the Additional Resources Page.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alizor wrote:


The Additional Resources page is simply replacing the "Crafting Firearms" and "Crafting Ammunition" section of the feat, not the other sections. The remainder of the feat is legal for society play. The "Special" section at the end that lets you repair the broken firearm and make it masterwork for 300 gp. In addition the "Restoring a Broken Firearm" section is unaltered by the Additional Resources Page.

I disagree, It says right out, Crafting is not allowed, except for cheaper bullets.

If it was allowed it would say it was allowed.

*I have the right to be wrong, and for mark to correct me, but as it stands that is how the Feat is.

Shadow Lodge

Dragnmoon wrote:

I disagree, It says right out, Crafting is not allowed, except for cheaper bullets.

If it was allowed it would say it was allowed.

For reference: "Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type."

This repair section says nothing about crafting a *new* firearm; rather, he is repairing his existing firearm to be of better quality.

But I'm nobody, so I would say let the PFS powers-that-be clarify...

Qadira *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
If it was allowed it would say it was allowed.

For most books in the Additional Resources page, I would agree with you. However for the APG, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, and a few other hardcover books instead of being a positive method of adding material, these hardcovers are negative. By this I mean the sentence saying: "All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below. Some rules elements are legal but function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, as described."

As the Additional Resources section is only referring to the crafting portions of the feat... the remainder is left alone. Otherwise it would say something to the effect of "Replace the Gunsmithing feat entirely with the following benefit."


Upgrading to masterwork by using a feat is still crafting and crafting is not allowed in PFS, except for the explicit exception of a wizard's arcane bond item. If this upgrade were allowed, then Mark would have added an exception in the same way. And of course, after reading all this, he may add an exception in the next update. But we will have to wait til he recovers from his Gencon hangover and reads through all the threads that require his attention.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Upgrading to masterwork by using a feat is still crafting and crafting is not allowed in PFS, except for the explicit exception of a wizard's arcane bond item. If this upgrade were allowed, then Mark would have added an exception in the same way. And of course, after reading all this, he may add an exception in the next update. But we will have to wait til he recovers from his Gencon hangover and reads through all the threads that require his attention.

Once again, what he said.

Edit: Are you playing yet?


Dragnmoon wrote:
Edit: Are you playing yet?

I wish. There just does not seem to be any PFS activity in my area here in Virginia and there are no gaming stores here either. The closest stuff seems to be a couple hours drive at least and I cannot do that right now. Maybe some time this year at a convention, if I am lucky.

Qadira ***** Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Raleigh aka Omega Man

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Edit: Are you playing yet?
I wish. There just does not seem to be any PFS activity in my area here in Virginia and there are no gaming stores here either. The closest stuff seems to be a couple hours drive at least and I cannot do that right now. Maybe some time this year at a convention, if I am lucky.

What part of Virginia are you in?

We have a pretty active crew down in Raleigh, NC & there are some cons that happen in High Point that end up having a Pathfinder presence.

OM

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Fumihasa wrote:


3. Gunsmithing Feat: Is it PFS legal to spend the 300g to upgrade the starter weapon to masterwork since this option is not available to anything else?

Quote:
Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.
Thanks in advance!

Anyone in PFS can buy a masterwork weapon, it's in the allowed purchases and you'll find that the expense is exactly the same. So yes, if the gunslinger PC spends the gold, it's doable.


Omega Man wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Edit: Are you playing yet?
I wish. There just does not seem to be any PFS activity in my area here in Virginia and there are no gaming stores here either. The closest stuff seems to be a couple hours drive at least and I cannot do that right now. Maybe some time this year at a convention, if I am lucky.

What part of Virginia are you in?

We have a pretty active crew down in Raleigh, NC & there are some cons that happen in High Point that end up having a Pathfinder presence.

OM

Central Virginia, Lynchburg area. And yeah, there is stuff at the beach and in northern VA, but the drive time is what restricts me more than anything, between job and family. I am working on getting a good PFS representation at a convention in Roanoke in February that I work on, MystiCon, and if I have to wait til then to finally play a PFS game, I will.

Now, back on subject LoL:

LazarX, the OP was asking about using his own Gunsmithing feat to upgrade his gun to masterwork, which would be a lot cheaper than going out and buying a new masterwork gun. If all you want is a masterwork weapon, then yeah, just buying one covers it. Of course, the new and cheaper way to upgrade a normal gun would be to buy a casting of Masterwork Transformation from an NPC caster and upgrade his gun that way if he is not allowed to do it himself.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alizor wrote:


For most books in the Additional Resources page, I would agree with you. However for the APG, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, and a few other hardcover books instead of being a positive method of adding material, these hardcovers are negative. By this I mean the sentence saying: "All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below. Some rules elements are legal but function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, as described."

As the Additional Resources section is only referring to the crafting portions of the feat... the remainder is left alone. Otherwise it would say something to the effect of "Replace the Gunsmithing feat entirely with the following benefit."

I would agree with you if they did not mention changes to the feat itself, but once they mentioned that there was changed to that feat they made it only legal for what is specifically allowed as posted in Additional Resources and not the rest of the feat.

Silver Crusade *

Mark Needs to change the gunsmithing feat for PFS to allow a gunslinger to make his initial firearm a masterwork firearm for the normal price of the masterwork cost of 300gp.

Otherwise a gunslingger cannot get a masterwork firearm untl 4th level as muskets cost 1500gp + 300 for master work Total 1800 gp 13 fame and 3rd level for a pistol 1300 gp 9 fame. That is grossley unfair to the Gunslinger class. No other class suffers that penalty.

The Masterwork ability for firearms needs to be changed. form adding +1 to hit to droping the missfire chance by one. This would make far better sence to me as masterwork real firearms are of a far better quality than a mass produced firearms. I know this is bringing logic in to a fanstay game.

Game mechanics wise this would not be crafting a new weapon but just paying materials cost to improve the mechanics of the existing weapon.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lou Diamond wrote:

Mark Needs to change the gunsmithing feat for PFS to allow a gunslinger to make his initial firearm a masterwork firearm for the normal price of the masterwork cost of 300gp.

Otherwise a gunslingger cannot get a masterwork firearm untl 4th level as muskets cost 1500gp + 300 for master work Total 1800 gp 13 fame and 3rd level for a pistol 1300 gp 9 fame. That is grossley unfair to the Gunslinger class. No other class suffers that penalty.

The Masterwork ability for firearms needs to be changed. form adding +1 to hit to droping the missfire chance by one. This would make far better sence to me as masterwork real firearms are of a far better quality than a mass produced firearms. I know this is bringing logic in to a fanstay game.

Game mechanics wise this would not be crafting a new weapon but just paying materials cost to improve the mechanics of the existing weapon.

Non Magical Guns are not restricted by Fame, you can buy them as soon as you have the gold, It is an always available item *As long as you meet the restriction have being allowed to get a gun*

Osirion *** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Buford aka bartgroks

Quote:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item.

They only mention changes to the aspects of the feat that allow you to craft forearms and ammo. They then list the replacement given for those aspects of the feat. As written A gunslinger is still allowed to use the the ability "restoring a broken firearm". The not being allowed to upgrade your initial firearm to masterwork does make some sense as upgrading mundane items in PFS is generally banned. Nothing in the wording of the additional resources doc however suggests that the feat has been stripped of the repair ability.

Shadow Lodge *****

Dragnmoon wrote:
I would agree with you if they did not mention changes to the feat itself, but once they mentioned that there was changed to that feat they made it only legal for what is specifically allowed as posted in Additional Resources and not the rest of the feat.

No, the fact that only things taken out are illegal means if the page is silent on part of a feat or feature, that feature is allowed. That is what the whole "negative" thing means. Unless it's negated in the book, it's in. Unless you show me where it says you cannot spend money for the upgrade with the feat, you can.

Further, this is not an instance of crafting in game. You make no roll, you have no item you did not have, rather you spend gold as defined by the feat and slightly improve a weapon to the functioning of a standard weapon. You've made nothing new. In fact you've made nothing.

Again, you have to point where it disallows this specifically, not where it allows it. This is true for all APG material (UC, UM, and the Core, too). A change to a feat does -not- take out the rest of the feat unless they say it does.

So you can spend the 300gp as per the feat.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Either I am going to be wrong, or you guys are going to be very disappointed, I am leaning to me being right, But I have been known to be wrong in the past ;)

Grand Lodge ***

Dragnmoon wrote:
Either I am going to be wrong, or you guys are going to be very disappointed, I am leaning to me being right, But I have been known to be wrong in the past ;)

lol this thread is lasting far longer then I ever thought it would... with that being said I just hope we can get a official ruling before Saturday =P

And thank you everyone who has taken the time to point out the various arguments for and against this, like I said I expected this thread to last 4-5 posts max!

Grand Lodge **

Alorha wrote:
So you can spend the 300gp as per the feat.

This.

Andoran ***

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

Here is what I think the feat is supposed to become for PFS play:

Gunsmithing

You know the secrets of repairing and restoring firearms.

Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith’s kit, you can restore firearms, and purchase discounted bullets and black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft check to purchase discounted ammunition or to restore firearms.

Purchasing Ammunition: You can purchase bullets, pellets, and black powder for 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can also purchase alchemical cartridges for half the normal price of the cartridge. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item.

Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour’s worth of work, you can use this feat to repair a single firearm with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a broken firearm with this feat.

Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.

Normal: No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.

Osirion

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Callarek wrote:

Here is what I think the feat is supposed to become for PFS play:

Gunsmithing

You know the secrets of repairing and restoring firearms.

Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith’s kit, you can restore firearms, and purchase discounted bullets and black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft check to purchase discounted ammunition or to restore firearms.

Purchasing Ammunition: You can purchase bullets, pellets, and black powder for 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can also purchase alchemical cartridges for half the normal price of the cartridge. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item.

Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour’s worth of work, you can use this feat to repair a single firearm with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a broken firearm with this feat.

Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.

Normal: No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.

/agree

I'm flagging this for the FAQ, which I imagine this issue will be address as it was stated that class specific issues will be covered there.

Grand Lodge ***

lol so normal game play took care of this question... gun blew up during his second game =(

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