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RPG Superstar 2015

WotC to republish old editions and non-random minis


Gamer Talk

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

SEE HERE

Uh-oh and what does this mean for Paizo's random mini set up of people can just get WOTC's mini's and know what they're getting. Also WOTC is a much bigger company than Paizo and can probably make more and put them out at a lower price point.

As for previous editions, it sounds like they'll do hardcopies as one of the other statements was that they're still trying to figure out how to price their PDF's.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Depends on price and quality of the mini's. It may or may not have a effect on the wizkid Pathfinder ones.

As for the older edition of DnD, I am honestly surprised they had not done this sooner. If they offer PDF's and or print books for a reasonable price I would be interested and this will generate good will for the company. As long as they don't bungle it or over price it, this is a smart move by WotC.

Sovereign Court

I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm, I'd love to be able to buy a copy of the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium (without paying >$100) along with a PDF that is under 100MB. Right now, there are people willing to pay for such products but they are essentially impossible to buy. It's like leaving money on the table.

Still wish it was possible to buy PDFs of all the issues of Dungeon covering the Savage Tide AP...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I would quite like to get a hard-copy of the 3.5 Monster Manual...

Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

I get the impression that RPGs aren't the main source of income for WotC, Magic the Gathering and other CCGs seem more important to them overall. (Unless things have changed in the past few years, I've not really been paying them much attention lately.)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Boycott Wizards of the Coast, as I am doing.

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If that guy wants to get clear info out to the public, he should run an edit on his stuff before he releases it to the general public. All it made me want to do is find another announcement somewhere else done by someone who can actually write.


Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shadowborn wrote:
If that guy wants to get clear info out to the public, he should run an edit on his stuff before he releases it to the general public. All it made me want to do is find another announcement somewhere else done by someone who can actually write.

Here is a much clearer summary.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

WotC has not been losing to Paizo in sales. WotC's sales dwarf Paizo's. WotC's D&D sales might be challenged by Paizo, though it's likely that they still generate more revenue from D&D than Paizo does from Pathfinder.

But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?

Liberty's Edge

I look forward to seeing the new WOTC minis. The limited edition set of chromatic dragons sounds interesting, although I was disappointed by the beholder collector's set they did. I'm interested to see the prices of the themed warband packs.

I still intend to order case quantities of any random sets from WizKids/Paizo, and multiples of their encounter packs, but that doesn't mean that I won't consider adding to my WOTC mini collection.

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Joana wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
If that guy wants to get clear info out to the public, he should run an edit on his stuff before he releases it to the general public. All it made me want to do is find another announcement somewhere else done by someone who can actually write.
Here is a much clearer summary.

Thanks, Joana. That was much better, especially considering the author mentioned he didn't edit it.

Still not seeing the OP's "republish old editions" section, unless he just means that they're doing 4E versions of 3E books (i.e. Book of Vile Darkness).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Shadowborn wrote:
Joana wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
If that guy wants to get clear info out to the public, he should run an edit on his stuff before he releases it to the general public. All it made me want to do is find another announcement somewhere else done by someone who can actually write.
Here is a much clearer summary.

Thanks, Joana. That was much better, especially considering the author mentioned he didn't edit it.

Still not seeing the OP's "republish old editions" section, unless he just means that they're doing 4E versions of 3E books (i.e. Book of Vile Darkness).

Towards the bottom.

Link wrote:
Republishing old editions? cant say anything yet, but there are plans.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Joana wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
If that guy wants to get clear info out to the public, he should run an edit on his stuff before he releases it to the general public. All it made me want to do is find another announcement somewhere else done by someone who can actually write.
Here is a much clearer summary.

Thank you Joana,

I'm seeing this:

onlinedm wrote:

11:24 Q: Digital distribution – opening the vault for novels, what about older editions of the RPG? A: Can’t give specifics (don’t want to say anything until they’re ready to go)… it’s like a band when you like the first 3 albums and when the 4th comes out they destroy the old ones. Not great

11:38 Q: What does “finding a way to support all editions” mean? A: If you’re a fan of D&D, they want you to be a fan of what they’re doing, whatever edition.
11:43 Q: Steam releases video games occasionally with a big sale – buy all of the games in this bucket for a good price. If you sell the old novels, might you ever do this kind of thing? A: We did this with an Eberron bookshelf access thing – pay a fee for a year and get access to all of the Eberron stuff. Uh, James – that wasn’t announced yet. (Hilarity ensues.)

That part I bolded strikes me. Have access to the material on a yearly basis? No thanks.

And based on the first two lines, somebody seems to have noticed alternates/previous editions are an untapped market. Maybe they've noticed that other people seem to be able to sell PDFs w/o screaming 'Pirate!'


Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

Uhhh, D&D has never been noteworthy to Hasbro and has never been a big seller for WotC.

THey

They make more then D&D.

Please tell me you know this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Cards, Maps, Pawns Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:


But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?

I have already bought and paid for PDFs of previous editions of D&D, mostly Planescape & Dark Sun. They removed those same PDFs and presented me with a very short timeframe to make sure I had local copies. Being in another hemisphere meant that I missed out completely.

So it's hard to view something like this as a gesture as a goodwill and easier to see it as company a little desperate to bump up revenue. Although I don't really subscribe to the sky is falling bit yet.

Not trying to be combative, but there are reasons some of us no longer feel that positive about WoTC. I bear no ill will to my 4E playing brothers, but it doesn't change how I feel about the company.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

You know, at this point, miniatures are about the only thing I'd buy from WotC. 4e didn't speak to me at all, I totally agree with Mearls that it felt like it was trying to lecture me about how I should play and that I should like it. I'm through giving them money for increasingly disappointing output.

I like their minis, but on the other hand, I have a bunch. Given that I play Pathfinder, I'll most likely stick with the PF miniatures, also because from what I've seen so far, they look pretty. WotC minis got very hit and miss toward the middle of their run of them, so I'm less likely to go back and give them any benefit of the doubt.

I don't have any ill or really good will toward 4e or its players; I nothing it. It's not on my radar anymore. I just hope when they eventually sell the license (whenever that comes) that whoever gets it gives it the attention and care it deserves.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

3 words: wait and see.

A few more words: This'll depend on alot of stuff like the quality of the sculpts and painting jobs. What's the price like? Are they going to do huge dragons, beholders, and others stuff that is very rare or are they going to do goblins, kobolds, and others that are commonly encountered? I"ll pass on a pack of displacer beasts or high level devils, but give me something that I have in every game, I'm much more likely to buy.

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Wolfthulhu wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Joana wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
If that guy wants to get clear info out to the public, he should run an edit on his stuff before he releases it to the general public. All it made me want to do is find another announcement somewhere else done by someone who can actually write.
Here is a much clearer summary.

Thanks, Joana. That was much better, especially considering the author mentioned he didn't edit it.

Still not seeing the OP's "republish old editions" section, unless he just means that they're doing 4E versions of 3E books (i.e. Book of Vile Darkness).

Towards the bottom.

Link wrote:
Republishing old editions? cant say anything yet, but there are plans.

Ah, okay. Not much more than a teaser then.


Link wrote:
Republishing old editions? cant say anything yet, but there are plans.

Not happening with 3.x. No way. In fact, I doubt this will happen at all with any edition, but I could see them throwing the 1E and OD&D stuff back on the PDF market, that would be it.

Republishing anything from the 3.x era would be quite the embarrassment to 4E and would certainly hurt 4Es image and probably sales. I think they have too much to lose and not enough to gain by republishing anything from 3.x.

However, I still say, if Hasbro really felt threatened by Pathfinder (note I said "if") or if they really wanted to spite Paizo they could begin supporting Greyhawk with 3.5 material again. I believe this would fracture the Pathfinder player base. I don't think it would help Hasbro much but it would hurt Paizo a bit.

Truly though I think Hasbro needs to keep doing what they are doing with D&D. Unless 4E sales are fantastically dismal (which I doubt they are) they just need to keep going with 4E and beyond. I really don't think they should look back any more. 3.x/Pathfinder/OGL is a special case. Aside from this group the "non current edition D&D players" are a tiny, tiny, but vocal group. Hasbro really does not need to cater to them to increase sales and if they did the "sales" that group would produce would be infinitesimal. Nostalgia is fun, but it's not necessarily a good business strategy.

I don't play 4E (because I don't like it) but that doesn't mean I'll never play D&D again. Maybe 5E will be more to my liking maybe not, who knows. I do enjoy analyzing D&D from the sidelines though and look forward to seeing what the future holds for it. Today I play Pathfinder and 3.5. If Hasbro keeps trying to innovate maybe that will change but if they start publishing previous editions again and stop trying to innovate, it definitely won't.

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

WotC has not been losing to Paizo in sales. WotC's sales dwarf Paizo's. WotC's D&D sales might be challenged by Paizo, though it's likely that they still generate more revenue from D&D than Paizo does from Pathfinder.

But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?

I agree. Most likely WotC is reacting to numbers given by Hasbro. DnD sales being affected by Pathfinder has as much impact as Toyota cars sales worldwide being affected by sales by Mitsubishi (i.e., none.)

Huh. Now I'm curious. With Wizards republishing its 3.x stuff, will ebay prices be affected?


cibet44 wrote:
Link wrote:
Republishing old editions? cant say anything yet, but there are plans.

Not happening with 3.x. No way. In fact, I doubt this will happen at all with any edition, but I could see them throwing the 1E and OD&D stuff back on the PDF market, that would be it.

Republishing anything from the 3.x era would be quite the embarrassment to 4E and would certainly hurt 4Es image and probably sales. I think they have too much to lose and not enough to gain by republishing anything from 3.x.

How on earth would any of that happen.

Where's the jump from "We're re-releasing older editions" to MASSIVE EMBARRASSMENT?

Methinks you've drunk the edition wars koolaid a bit too much.

Liberty's Edge

I think its potentially pretty cool, especially the mini thing. We'll see what they look like and go from there.

I am curious (if anyone knows) if D&D sales for WotC is anywhere close to what they probably make on Magic the Gathering since people brought up sales in general.


cibet44 wrote:
Link wrote:
Republishing old editions? cant say anything yet, but there are plans.

Not happening with 3.x. No way. In fact, I doubt this will happen at all with any edition, but I could see them throwing the 1E and OD&D stuff back on the PDF market, that would be it.

Republishing anything from the 3.x era would be quite the embarrassment to 4E and would certainly hurt 4Es image and probably sales. I think they have too much to lose and not enough to gain by republishing anything from 3.x.

However, I still say, if Hasbro really felt threatened by Pathfinder (note I said "if") or if they really wanted to spite Paizo they could begin supporting Greyhawk with 3.5 material again. I believe this would fracture the Pathfinder player base. I don't think it would help Hasbro much but it would hurt Paizo a bit.

You have pretty much made their argument for them. Publishing material for every edition prior to 3rd nets them a small amount of money, leaves things open for possible new product initiatives in those editions and maybe nets them some good will.

3rd is an even better option. The idea that you can't support a previous edition because it eats into your current profits may well have been true in the past. Heck it probably was true but, as we have seen 3.5 is different. Its not just hold outs that choose not to upgrade, or do so slowly anymore - those same hold outs have been migrating to Pathfinder. That's a game changer right there. Do that and these players move out of WotCs orbit while if they can keep the 3rd edition players at least in the background paying attention to what WotC is doing maybe they can get them on board with an interesting product (like a ton of new Greyhawk material or some such) or some such. Once they are seriously out of WotCs orbit there is a good chance that they would not notice such an interesting product even if WotC did make it.

As for embarrassment...this is a corp...they don't have emotions - especially something like embarrassment. Especially since this is a case of simply reversing a business decision - received wisdom says don't keep printing older editions because it cannibalizes sales...oops new reality says this no longer applies...change business decision. No one is going to feel shame from this (and you need the psychological emotion shame to be embarrassed).

The idea simply makes business sense for them at this point - though they probably would have gotten a better return on this theory if they had implemented it 18 months or so ago.


I mean what do you think happens if they release 3e products and it sells amazingly? Because here's what would actually happen:

"Looks like profits went up."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Okay, is there any actual information on this supposed reprinting? Cause I was mislead into thinking there was more than just rumors here.


Misery wrote:

I think its potentially pretty cool, especially the mini thing. We'll see what they look like and go from there.

I am curious (if anyone knows) if D&D sales for WotC is anywhere close to what they probably make on Magic the Gathering since people brought up sales in general.

Sales of Magic the Gathering are larger then they have ever been. By which I mean they have bigger print runs of the cards now then they did say two years ago and that was larger then two years before that etc. They run out of stock practically instantly every single print run (its actually a pain in the ass getting cases from the distributors). D&D pretty much never gets mentioned in their share holder reports - to small. Magic the Gathering usually gets mentioned.

Sovereign Court

Wow, you know it actually took me a while in the link to actually find whatever the OP was talking about for the previous editions thing. I doubt anything will come out of it because it's just some Q&A and nothing said in those is in any way binding. If they say something in a press release perhaps.

Mini's announcement is probably just a replacement for Heroscape given that they've already got a ton of molds and so forth likely just laying around. Probably be something that if you bought a lot of D&D miniatures you won't need anything out of.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Going out on a major limb here...but based on what Mearls has posted about modular abilities/rules in his blog wouldn't a 1st-3rd ed rules re-release sort of be a play test for a super-edition? Maybe focusing on making a wholly rules modular game which incorporates a variety of systems and levels of play complexity from multiple editions?

Reaction/testing/collecting data to living versions of older rules could be the proving ground for what goes in, is considered, what level of complexity people like, etc, all put into 5e/AD&D 3rd edition?

Yeah, that sounds crazy.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

"Turns out role players don't like random minis"

Sounds like a humorous jab at Paizo's announcement :D

The reality is it's hard to say if the failure of WotCs mini line was due to random minis since they printed a bunch of inconsistent minis that people generally didn't want. Scale was terrible between runs, or even within the same run. Races were terribly inconsistent, there were four or five things that proclaimed they were orcs but they were completely different looking. Paint quality was also mediocre compared to the Wizkids minis (for example heroclix).

Hopefully, in addition to making them non-random they will look at these things. The good news is there is a fairly healthy aftermarket where they can judge which minis are in demand and should likely be reprinted (though some of the pricing might be due to limited quantities more than demand).

Paizo has taken a fair bit of flak for going the random mini route so maybe this is a good choice for Wizards.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Dennis Baker wrote:

Paizo has taken a fair bit of flak for going the random mini route so maybe this is a good choice for Wizards.

We stand by our conclusion (as detailed in our Press Release FAQ) that only way to do a *broad* line of high-quality prepainted plastic minis is to make use of randomization.

As I understand it, Wizards is not doing a broad line here—just relatively small themed sets—and we've already announced that WizKids will also be doing small, non-random themed sets for the Pathfinder Battles line.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Vic Wertz wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:

Paizo has taken a fair bit of flak for going the random mini route so maybe this is a good choice for Wizards.

We stand by our conclusion (as detailed in our Press Release FAQ) that only way to do a *broad* line of high-quality prepainted plastic minis is to make use of randomization.

As I understand it, Wizards is not doing a broad line here—just relatively small themed sets—and we've already announced that WizKids will also be doing small, non-random themed sets for the Pathfinder Battles line.

I have no clue what the better way to do it is. As I said in my post, I think the bigger reason WotC's minis struggled had more to do with quality and consistency than random versus picked, if they think switching to non-random without addressing their other problems is going to magically fix their mini line I suspect they will disappointed.

Based on past purchases I expect WizKids and Paizo won't have issues with either quality or consistency.


ProfessorCirno wrote:


Methinks you've drunk the edition wars koolaid a bit too much.

What flavor?

Shadow Lodge

What would be really awesome would be if in the process of re-publishing older edition products, they also created new PDFs of those products...ones that were created electronically, instead of scanned in (sometimes rather poorly). I know that's a lot to hope for, but there would definitely be some things I would be willing to purchase in print, and a LOT I would be willing to purchase in PDF, assuming the quality of those PDFs was worthwhile.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Dies Irae wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:


Methinks you've drunk the edition wars koolaid a bit too much.

What flavor?

Grape.


Auxmaulous wrote:

Going out on a major limb here...but based on what Mearls has posted about modular abilities/rules in his blog wouldn't a 1st-3rd ed rules re-release sort of be a play test for a super-edition? Maybe focusing on making a wholly rules modular game which incorporates a variety of systems and levels of play complexity from multiple editions?

Reaction/testing/collecting data to living versions of older rules could be the proving ground for what goes in, is considered, what level of complexity people like, etc, all put into 5e/AD&D 3rd edition?

Yeah, that sounds crazy.

I think that Mike Mearls (and maybe some of the other designers) where, and maybe still are, kicking this idea around. Nothing set in stone though and I don't think it will fly. My rough feeling on the feedback that sort of idea was eliciting seemed pretty generally negative.

The idea really faces a lot of hurdles as well. Power levels between the different editions can be pretty dramatic and sty;es pf play have changed pretty significantly as well. I'm rather doubtful it could be done.


Kthulhu wrote:
What would be really awesome would be if in the process of re-publishing older edition products, they also created new PDFs of those products...ones that were created electronically, instead of scanned in (sometimes rather poorly). I know that's a lot to hope for, but there would definitely be some things I would be willing to purchase in print, and a LOT I would be willing to purchase in PDF, assuming the quality of those PDFs was worthwhile.

Here is where I get pretty doubtful. They don't exactly have a surplus of manpower and with the relatively small number of actual buying fans I just can't see them ever coming to the conclusion that this is the best use of some editors time.

I suspect your only hope for this sort of thing would be if they need to come up with something for their intern to do that will give the intern experience with modern publishing software - and even this scenario strikes me as far fetched.

Shadow Lodge

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
What would be really awesome would be if in the process of re-publishing older edition products, they also created new PDFs of those products...ones that were created electronically, instead of scanned in (sometimes rather poorly). I know that's a lot to hope for, but there would definitely be some things I would be willing to purchase in print, and a LOT I would be willing to purchase in PDF, assuming the quality of those PDFs was worthwhile.

Here is where I get pretty doubtful. They don't exactly have a surplus of manpower and with the relatively small number of actual buying fans I just can't see them ever coming to the conclusion that this is the best use of some editors time.

I suspect your only hope for this sort of thing would be if they need to come up with something for their intern to do that will give the intern experience with modern publishing software - and even this scenario strikes me as far fetched.

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually believe it will happen...it's just what I would consider the best-case scenario.

Sovereign Court

ProfessorCirno wrote:
Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

Uhhh, D&D has never been noteworthy to Hasbro and has never been a big seller for WotC.

THey

They make more then D&D.

Please tell me you know this.

I know this, i just thought that D&D brought them major revenue...however, i despise everything trading card gamey, and thus i tend to handwave it a bit. Maybe i shouldn't.

However, i have all the D&D books i need, and i never liked their minis as they were ugly and low in quality. We usually use warhammer figurines customized so that they look more D&D-ish.


Hama wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:
Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

Uhhh, D&D has never been noteworthy to Hasbro and has never been a big seller for WotC.

THey

They make more then D&D.

Please tell me you know this.

I know this, i just thought that D&D brought them major revenue...however, i despise everything trading card gamey, and thus i tend to handwave it a bit. Maybe i shouldn't.

However, i have all the D&D books i need, and i never liked their minis as they were ugly and low in quality. We usually use warhammer figurines customized so that they look more D&D-ish.

Even when 3e was at it's biggest boom, D&D was never their money maker. It was a vanity project through and through.

Hasbro likely thinks of D&D as a potential IP for later development sometime in the vague future, and nothing more.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Scott Betts wrote:
Hama wrote:
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.

WotC has not been losing to Paizo in sales. WotC's sales dwarf Paizo's. WotC's D&D sales might be challenged by Paizo, though it's likely that they still generate more revenue from D&D than Paizo does from Pathfinder.

But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?

I am happy that they may release older edition stuff. And hey, I like minis, random or not. But ya hit the nail on the head. They are doing this to increase goodwill? Why would they need to increase goodwill in the community?

WOTC is scrambling a bit. Please don't tell me that they planned the essentials and the boardgames from the beginning. They seem to change their approach monthly. And I have bought some 4e products. Some are decent, others are not.

As far as sales, I'm sure WOTC generates more gross revenue than Paizo. But their overhead is huge. What they need to sell, versus what Paizo needs to sell, is very different. And it is telling, that from available sources, Paizo is selling more RPG books.

This isn't me saying WOTC is going down. They just don't seem to know who they are right now(with regards to DnD), and are throwing a lot of stuff out there. Seems like they are trying to get back their core audience. But to me seems so unfocused.


I have bought D&D minis, and the larger ones are pretty good, but the medium and small minis were mostly garbage. The paint jobs were horrific, and the sculpts were, as has already been mentioned, variable even within the same race. Several of the bases were warped straight out of the package.

Considering that Paizo is already going to be releasing some non-random battle pack type minis down the road, I probably will not buy any of WotCs minis. I will give them a look when they are released (which I am sure will be sooner than Paizo's line just because the company is a giant). But they will have to be awesome, on an astronomical scale, to make me not just wait and give my money to Paizo.

I WISH Paizo could have found some magical mini-forge to put out non-random sets on demand without resorting to random sets at all, but I understand the business sense of it. It's an ugly truth. Paizo didn't choose it to make us suffer.

As for rereleasing older editions: I don't see it as desperate or trying to take sales as much as testing people. Fourth edition D&D brought in a lot of younger players and MMO gamers who had probably never thought to give tabletop games a go. Showing them what older versions of the game were like may allow them to see what changes could be made for 5th edition. Their target may not be the nostalgic group or the 3.5 loyalists, but A LOT of the people who post on these forums refer back to AD&D frequently. I didn't start playing until 3.5 was on its way out, so I don't share the sentimental feelings, just the dislike of the 4e game system.

Ultimately, I believe 4e will suffer because of the perceived lack of focus they have on the game and the lower-quality product.

In closing, there are three kinds of jobs in this world: good, fast, and cheap. You can have two of the three. If it's good and cheap, it won't be fast. If it's fast and cheap, it won't be good. If it's good and fast, it won't be cheap. (Okay, it's only loosely related, but it's humorous and thought it might lighten the discussion up.)


Grotnar wrote:


I am happy that they may release older edition stuff. And hey, I like minis, random or not. But ya hit the nail on the head. They are doing this to increase goodwill? Why would they need to increase goodwill in the community?

WOTC is scrambling a bit. Please don't tell me that they planned the essentials and the board games from the beginning. They seem to change their approach monthly. And I have bought some 4e products. Some are decent, others are not.

As far as sales, I'm sure WOTC generates more gross revenue than Paizo. But their overhead is huge. What they need to sell, versus what Paizo needs to sell, is very different. And it is telling, that from available sources, Paizo is selling more RPG books.

This isn't me saying WOTC is going down. They just don't seem to know who they are right now(with regards to DnD), and are throwing a lot of stuff out there. Seems like they are trying to get back their core audience. But to me seems so unfocused.

I agree and disagree. I don't think Board Games where part of their original plan...in fact we almost know that they where not a core element because, in describing how Conquest of Nerath we are told that the designer had pitched the idea several times but it was only recently that he was told to go ahead and make it happen.

Essentials on the other hand - not that exact product but something that kind of fit the bill in terms of its space in the product release schedule probably was always on the to do list. What they did with Essentials is almost identical to what Monte Cook claims was the original plan with 3rd. Originally with 3rd there would be an upgrade to the rule books including all the errata and new art halfway through the edition. That moved beyond this point to a full half edition upgrade. Essentials is more along the lines of this original plan so it seems likely that they went back to that idea when they where implementing 4E.

In terms of their scrambling, well I think your describing the last eight months to a year where there has been a sense of things changing, products being taken off the release list, unclear or changing directions etc. But I'm not actually getting that sense at all now - quite the reverse...Things seem to have pretty much settled down - they are back to telling us their plans out for many months and they seem to all be on board with how they are going to implement their plans.

I think they figured out that they had a real challenge on their hands from competition from Paizo roughly a year or so ago and that caused a change up...we have felt this scramble for about the last eight months or so but it all seems to be settling down now. As an actual 4E consumer the results have been really good IMO as the quality of a lot of the product and what they are doing with it seems to have really begun to shoot up. Nothing like some serious competition to get a company to take their production values seriously. The edition wars may be pretty acrimonious but consumers on both sides probably actually benefit from them.

As for overhead...I'm beginning to get skeptical in this regards in terms of just the RPG divisions. Staff are always going to be your greatest expense and Paizo has been on a hiring spree. I think Paizo staff in terms of just RPGs might be reasonably comparable to WotCs RPG staff. It seems likely that the differences in overhead have shrunk significantly. I suspect at this point Paizo's cheaper overhead comes mainly from savings in wages and benefits...not even really sure how much savings they get there. Their building is probably cheaper as well but WotC has one building for all sorts of game divisions. The cost for the floors devoted to just the RPG section of the business is probably pretty good in the grand scheme.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I look forward to seeing what kind of non-random mini sets they put out. If it's something I think I need a lot of, then I'll probably get a set or two.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would buy a reprinted rules cyclopedia in a heartbeat.

However, I suspect they aren't going to reprint old books. I'm betting it will end up some sort of subscription based electronic package.

Shadow Lodge

deinol wrote:
I would buy a reprinted rules cyclopedia in a heartbeat.

Hey deinol, my email is in my profile. Shoot me an email, I might be able to do something for you.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
deinol wrote:
...I suspect they aren't going to reprint old books. I'm betting it will end up some sort of subscription based electronic package.

That's what concerns me, as far as re-release of old edition material goes. PDF's I'll snatch in a heartbeat (I bought a large number of 1-2e material on PDF before The Big Previous Edition Pull), but subscription-based access? I'd rather buy than rent, thank you.

Of course, as has been said upthread, we're going to have to wait and see how much of this pans out in the first place.


Grotnar wrote:
WOTC is scrambling a bit. Please don't tell me that they planned the essentials and the boardgames from the beginning. They seem to change their approach monthly. And I have bought some 4e products. Some are decent, others are not.

Essentials was planned from the beginning. Their plan was always to add new gameplay elements in the second year to appeal more to older gamers, not even neccisarily 3e ones, but those beyond that.

Literally right on their schedule they made the Red Box with an advertising campaign directed at both kids and older D&D playing parents along with Essentials.

As for the boardgames, what does that have to do with anything? They saw an opportunity for a brilliant tie in item and went with it.


ProfessorCirno wrote:

Essentials was planned from the beginning. Their plan was always to add new gameplay elements in the second year to appeal more to older gamers, not even neccisarily 3e ones, but those beyond that.

Literally right on their schedule they made the Red Box with an advertising campaign directed at both kids and older D&D playing parents along with Essentials.

This.

It's telling that the poster in question went with the equivalent of "Don't bother trying to tell me because I won't believe you even if you do," instead of "I'm skeptical of this." I think that many people imagine WotC to work very differently than it does in reality.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Scott Betts wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:

Essentials was planned from the beginning. Their plan was always to add new gameplay elements in the second year to appeal more to older gamers, not even neccisarily 3e ones, but those beyond that.

Literally right on their schedule they made the Red Box with an advertising campaign directed at both kids and older D&D playing parents along with Essentials.

This.

It's telling that the poster in question went with the equivalent of "Don't bother trying to tell me because I won't believe you even if you do," instead of "I'm skeptical of this." I think that many people imagine WotC to work very differently than it does in reality.

I'm not sure if it was planned or not. I don't think it worked.

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