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I was disappointed with the red box. I'm hoping paizo's beginner set doesn't make the same mistakes. That said, it was clearly planned. Boxed sets don't materialize out of thin air. A quick search on these boards will turn up a number of threads where Lisa and Vic talk about how hard / expensive it is to set one up.
I'm not sure if it was planned or not.
It was. The plan, right from the start, was for a year-by-year strategy where they would shift their target market to make sure they eventually covered all their bases with quality material. Essentials was their "new gamers and lapsed gamers" line.
I don't think it worked.
Chances are you were neither new to RPGs or a lapsed gamer.
Chances are you were neither new to RPGs or a lapsed gamer.
I feel it failed hard if it was aiming at new gamers. That box was not aimed at younger people. Its hard to get young people into the game if they will not even pick the box up off the shelf.
The Red Box was a great idea, but the fact that they included very little material beyond what was required for the first adventure for the player was a bit surprising to me. I understand they want people to buy more of their products, but to me, it just didn't feel like there was enough there to get a new player to want to buy more stuff. There was decent material for a new DM, but most people want to play a new system before they try to run it. The material seemed more targeted to existing DMs looking for an easy way to pull new players in without overwhelming them than to new players/DMs. There just isn't enough actual player crunch in there to convince new people to buy further books or subscribe to DDI; not even a write up of the basic classes with a few more examples of the powers or feats. That is where I think it failed.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I have to say, if WotC was aiming the Red Box at people new to gaming, their marketing was a total failure. All the adverts I saw for it seemed to be squarely aimed at the nostalgic gamer audience. The heavy metal ads would have no appeal to new gamers and the stand-ups I've seen (infrequently) at game shops just consisted of the art on the box with nothing to really explain what the game is.
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I WISH Paizo could have found some magical mini-forge to put out non-random sets on demand without resorting to random sets at all, but I understand the business sense of it. It's an ugly truth. Paizo didn't choose it to make us suffer.
The sad truth is that elves probably could have done it, but they've all been co-opted by the cookie business.
The sad truth is that elves probably could have done it, but they've all been co-opted by the cookie business.
Oh NO YOU DI-INT!
For the record, the Keebler 'elves' are brownies, and Santa's 'elves' are tinker gnomes. Arguments to the contrary will be met with flaming arrows... Ted Nugent style.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Kind of tangental, so...
1) Nostalgia for the BECMI stuff (especially since b&$%~ took my Rules cyclopedia).
2) If the 3e stuff was made Open Content. Why should I want a duskblade I have to convert if it's closed content and I can't share my results (plus I have the Magus, Vangard, and my own Damascarran to fill that niche)? Rite's take on the Ironborn make the Warforged redundant in a closed content sense, we have our (better) Saumrai and (different) Ninja, etc.
I'm not talking Eberron, Greyhawk, the Realms being Open Content, anymore than Golarion is. I'm talking classes/feats/spells, etc. At this point other 3PP (and by 3PP, I mean people using the OGL) are doing wonders for Pathfinder players.
3 words: wait and see.
A few more words: This'll depend on alot of stuff like the quality of the sculpts and painting jobs. What's the price like?
Yeah, if I were Wizkids or Paizo, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.
Unless the quality gets a huge boost, PFB won't have any competition as far as quality is concerned.
The incentive for me to buy more miniatures will be based on original sculptures, so whether I buy Paizo or WOTC will be based on the secondary market via various third parties to keep the cost down, or if the sculptures are unique enough for non-blind packs. I already have a ton of miniatures, so I am going to be very picky. I believe WOTC is going to release a new miniatures game as well to drive the interest for continued purchases.
I would also appreciate a well thought out token package or paper miniatures option (heavy card stock) to diversify the market so there are mulitple entry points into the game for battlemat use.
As to releasing older versions of D&D, I see no reason why WOTC should not do it, especially since everyone that is an established roleplayer has chosen their preferred version of D&D. Why not cater to them all, and perhaps take more time to release the next version of D&D based on how sales go.
However, I still say, if Hasbro really felt threatened by Pathfinder (note I said "if") or if they really wanted to spite Paizo they could begin supporting Greyhawk with 3.5 material again. I believe this would fracture the Pathfinder player base. I don't think it would help Hasbro much but it would hurt Paizo a bit.
I don't see a lot of fracture potential there.
Some people never got into GH and were FR fans instead (and a lot of those moved over to Golarion when 4e messed up FR). Those are unlikely to go back.
Some never did any campaign setting. Those are unlikely to go (wouldn't be going back because they were never there).
Some moved on when GH support dried up. Out of that part, some might go back, but others won't, because they migrated to Golarion for good because they like it more. Others wouldn't trust this development, thinking it a fad at best.
Some like APs, and they enjoy a real great support. Sure, the old APs like Shackled City were more or less GH, but nowadays the Adventure Paths are Golarion.
And some are done with wotc for good.
I think the subset of people who actually would go back (for a time or for good - as long as that would last) is small enough not to bother Paizo in any significant way.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think that everyone can see, in retrospect, that Wizards made some serious mistakes in the early days of 4th Edition. One of the most serious was the blockade against the pdfs of past editions. It served to isolate 4th Edition material as an island of content without a strong claim to the continuity of its rich history. Someone new to the hobby may not understand what "Dark Sun" or "Greyhawk" is, or why it was awesome, and Wizards was effectively prohibiting them from finding out.
Licensing pdf access to material written for previous editions, for a limited time, is a step in the right direction, but we need to be able to download and keep material we pay for.
I have to say, if WotC was aiming the Red Box at people new to gaming, their marketing was a total failure. All the adverts I saw for it seemed to be squarely aimed at the nostalgic gamer audience. The heavy metal ads would have no appeal to new gamers and the stand-ups I've seen (infrequently) at game shops just consisted of the art on the box with nothing to really explain what the game is.
The Red Box was aimed at lapsed gamers. Thus, the red box.
Essentials, however, is also aimed at new gamers, with classes that are more straightforward and easier to pick up and go.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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The Red Box was aimed at lapsed gamers. Thus, the red box.
Essentials, however, is also aimed at new gamers, with classes that are more straightforward and easier to pick up and go.
I've seen no advertising at all for Essentials. Which seems to defeat the purpose of bringing in new gamers. Where does Wizards expect these new gamers to find out Essentials in the first place?
I have bought D&D minis, and the larger ones are pretty good, but the medium and small minis were mostly garbage. The paint jobs were horrific, and the sculpts were, as has already been mentioned, variable even within the same race. Several of the bases were warped straight out of the package.
When was that? Do you remember what set it was?
Because they were pretty good once upon a time. The first couple of sets weren't that good, but it was all new, they were trying a new thing there. Somewhere between Set 3 and 5, things started to look up. Quality started rising. It all reached its peak by the 8th set - Underdark.
Underdark was a great set. Even the commons looked decent. The rares were fantastic (with a very small number of exceptions).
After that, things went downhill. Quite rapidly, too. The very next set had a nice little brouhaha when the actual minis you got in boosters had much crappier paint jobs than the stuff that was advertised. Not saying there never was a difference, but in that case, the difference was jarring.
A year or so later you got rares you would have called crappy commons in Underdark.
I will give them a look when they are released (which I am sure will be sooner than Paizo's line just because the company is a giant).
I wouldn't be sure of that. The figures are done by WizKids, not Paizo, and WizKids is big in plastic.
Plus, the release of the first pathfinder minis is less than three months away - the Beginner Box Heroes set is set for October, with Heroes & Monsters to follow in December.
In closing, there are three kinds of jobs in this world: good, fast, and cheap. You can have two of the three. If it's good and cheap, it won't be fast. If it's fast and cheap, it won't be good. If it's good and fast, it won't be cheap. (Okay, it's only loosely related, but it's humorous and thought it might lighten the discussion up.)
In the world of pre-painted plastic miniatures, this is a bit different: Non-random, cheap, big selection - choose two.
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I've seen no advertising at all for Essentials. Which seems to defeat the purpose of bringing in new gamers. Where does Wizards expect these new gamers to find out Essentials in the first place?The Red Box was aimed at lapsed gamers. Thus, the red box.
Essentials, however, is also aimed at new gamers, with classes that are more straightforward and easier to pick up and go.
The only place I've seen advertising for Essentials is in the Dungeons & Dragons comic book. You know, that thing you're probably not going to pick up if you aren't already playing D&D.
I would also appreciate a well thought out token package or paper miniatures option (heavy card stock) to diversify the market so there are mulitple entry points into the game for battlemat use.
For your information: You have to print them yourself, but there are paper minis for Pathfinder.
And the PF beginners box will contain tokens.
If the demand grows large enough, I'm sure Paizo (or a licensee) would look into the token business.
So there are already Pathfinder Paper miniatures, metal miniatures and pre-painted plastic miniatures (well, the latter aren't yet, technically, but they will be). To me that means that Paizo isn't afraid of covering all their bases.
I've seen no advertising at all for Essentials. Which seems to defeat the purpose of bringing in new gamers. Where does Wizards expect these new gamers to find out Essentials in the first place?The Red Box was aimed at lapsed gamers. Thus, the red box.
Essentials, however, is also aimed at new gamers, with classes that are more straightforward and easier to pick up and go.
I've seen it advertised in a number of places online (here's the trick: they're not advertising Essentials; they're advertising D&D Encounters and focusing the Encounters program on the Essentials line), but let's not forget that the primary way D&D has always been spread is by word of mouth. Essentials is targeted at new players in the sense that it makes it easy for them to pick up and play, the thought being that the more they can do to enhance the first play experience, the more likely it is that a new player will continue to play and eventually develop into a long-term customer.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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The only place I've seen advertising for Essentials is in the Dungeons & Dragons comic book. You know, that thing you're probably not going to pick up if you aren't already playing D&D.
True. Now if they were in other comic books... And on WoW boards and on Geek websites around the web and had posters up at bookstores and game shops and on podcasts and every three minutes on Cartoon Network, then we might have a chance to entice new gamers.
I think the fact is that we as a hobby can no longer rely upon the D&D brand to bring in new gamers. With the rise of the 3rd Party Publishers becoming on a footing with the old masters, we need to look at new avenues to entice new gamers into the hobby. Things like Free RPG Day and Free Comic Day are good starts, but we need a corps of volunteers willing to demo games at libraries, game stores and events to keep interest up.
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However, I still say, if Hasbro really felt threatened by Pathfinder (note I said "if") or if they really wanted to spite Paizo they could begin supporting Greyhawk with 3.5 material again. I believe this would fracture the Pathfinder player base. I don't think it would help Hasbro much but it would hurt Paizo a bit.
I don't see a lot of fracture potential there.
Some people never got into GH and were FR fans instead (and a lot of those moved over to Golarion when 4e messed up FR). Those are unlikely to go back.
Some never did any campaign setting. Those are unlikely to go (wouldn't be going back because they were never there).
Some moved on when GH support dried up. Out of that part, some might go back, but others won't, because they migrated to Golarion for good because they like it more. Others wouldn't trust this development, thinking it a fad at best.
Some like APs, and they enjoy a real great support. Sure, the old APs like Shackled City were more or less GH, but nowadays the Adventure Paths are Golarion.
And some are done with wotc for good.I think the subset of people who actually would go back (for a time or for good - as long as that would last) is small enough not to bother Paizo in any significant way.
Both are you are ignoring the fact that anyone who's a big fan of both Golarion and Greyhawk could actually support BOTH settings. Wacky idea, I know.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I've seen it advertised in a number of places online (here's the trick: they're not advertising Essentials; they're advertising D&D Encounters and focusing the Encounters program on the Essentials line), but let's not forget that the primary way D&D has always been spread is by word of mouth. Essentials is targeted at new players in the sense that it makes it easy for them to pick up and play, the thought being that the more they can do to enhance the first play experience, the more likely it is that a new player will continue to play and eventually develop into a long-term customer.
Ah, I see. Now those I have seen around the web, but I think the marketers assume a level of familiarity with D&D that isn't there with new gamers. They need to work on creating adverts that tackle the "What is Role-playing?" question as well.
Also, I agree with the word of mouth, but we need to diversify if we're going to grow the customer base for RPGs. And the WotC advertising has not had a stellar track record in my opinion. Which is doubly sad, since they have a huge stock of creativity at their fingertips.
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.WotC has not been losing to Paizo in sales. WotC's sales dwarf Paizo's. WotC's D&D sales might be challenged by Paizo, though it's likely that they still generate more revenue from D&D than Paizo does from Pathfinder.
But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?
Last I checked pathfinder was beating 4e by a good margin, but D&D is not and has never been WotC's main revenue source. That is and always has been magic the gathering. I think it could be desperate in the sense that this product line is now losing momentum and they don't want to lose the market represented by this product-line
The first couple of sets weren't that good, but it was all new, they were trying a new thing there. Somewhere between Set 3 and 5, things started to look up. Quality started rising. It all reached its peak by the 8th set - Underdark.
Underdark was a great set. Even the commons looked decent. The rares were fantastic (with a very small number of exceptions).
Interesting. As a multi-case buyer through just about Underdark, I've always thought of Archfiends and Giants of Legend as among the best values, especially before the price for Archfiends went from $10 to $13 a booster. Underdark itself was a great set, though.
I kind of see it as a desperate move...Wotc has been loosing to paizo in sales for quite some time...they have to generate revenue somehow, in order to be useful to hasbro. Because if they are not, they get shut down.WotC has not been losing to Paizo in sales. WotC's sales dwarf Paizo's. WotC's D&D sales might be challenged by Paizo, though it's likely that they still generate more revenue from D&D than Paizo does from Pathfinder.
But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?
I don't think the sky is falling. But I also don't begrudge people who feel that WoTC is obstinate and stubborn and refuses to listen to fans often until it is too late. Any casual observer could be excused for noticing that.
It's a good spin to say, "hey, this move is just to increase community good will," but it remains spin. Where was the good will when it was asked for? Why does it come after so much damage is already done? That sounds more like grabbing a share of a pie somebody previously decided wasn't tasty anymore. It's human nature to want a thing you gave up again after you see other people having fun with it. In fact, that's the nature of pretty much every primate.
And, please, do not ever use the word "community" and WoTC in the same paragraph. They are a viable corporation, and they are a producer of a lot of what our collective communities use, but they make it very clear very often that as a company policy, there is no community. Only customers.
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The only place I've seen advertising for Essentials is in the Dungeons & Dragons comic book. You know, that thing you're probably not going to pick up if you aren't already playing D&D.
True. Now if they were in other comic books... And on WoW boards and on Geek websites around the web and had posters up at bookstores and game shops and on podcasts and every three minutes on Cartoon Network, then we might have a chance to entice new gamers.
I think the fact is that we as a hobby can no longer rely upon the D&D brand to bring in new gamers. With the rise of the 3rd Party Publishers becoming on a footing with the old masters, we need to look at new avenues to entice new gamers into the hobby. Things like Free RPG Day and Free Comic Day are good starts, but we need a corps of volunteers willing to demo games at libraries, game stores and events to keep interest up.
Getting the penny arcade guys on board with 4e was a pretty smart move. That's positive word of mouth from people normally associated with WoW and console gaming.
I removed some posts. Personal attacks are not cool
Getting the penny arcade guys on board with 4e was a pretty smart move. That's positive word of mouth from people normally associated with WoW and console gaming.The only place I've seen advertising for Essentials is in the Dungeons & Dragons comic book. You know, that thing you're probably not going to pick up if you aren't already playing D&D.
True. Now if they were in other comic books... And on WoW boards and on Geek websites around the web and had posters up at bookstores and game shops and on podcasts and every three minutes on Cartoon Network, then we might have a chance to entice new gamers.
I think the fact is that we as a hobby can no longer rely upon the D&D brand to bring in new gamers. With the rise of the 3rd Party Publishers becoming on a footing with the old masters, we need to look at new avenues to entice new gamers into the hobby. Things like Free RPG Day and Free Comic Day are good starts, but we need a corps of volunteers willing to demo games at libraries, game stores and events to keep interest up.
Brilliant, in fact. I'll be in the crowd watching them play their next Acquisition's Inc. game at PAX. It's absolutely killer marketing.
Make sure you line up early. I missed out last PAX, they messed the line up and a whole bunch of us didn't make it in. *shakes fist*
I'll make sure it works out. I'm dragging the majority of my gaming group up from California with me, and I think they're all chomping at the bit to see this particular event.
I've seen it advertised in a number of places online (here's the trick: they're not advertising Essentials; they're advertising D&D Encounters and focusing the Encounters program on the Essentials line), but let's not forget that the primary way D&D has always been spread is by word of mouth. Essentials is targeted at new players in the sense that it makes it easy for them to pick up and play, the thought being that the more they can do to enhance the first play experience, the more likely it is that a new player will continue to play and eventually develop into a long-term customer.Ah, I see. Now those I have seen around the web, but I think the marketers assume a level of familiarity with D&D that isn't there with new gamers. They need to work on creating adverts that tackle the "What is Role-playing?" question as well.
Also, I agree with the word of mouth, but we need to diversify if we're going to grow the customer base for RPGs. And the WotC advertising has not had a stellar track record in my opinion. Which is doubly sad, since they have a huge stock of creativity at their fingertips.
A Meetup group I belong to received a sponsorship from WotC in exchange for starting up an Encounters program at a new store a few months back, so I've been playing 4E twice a month on average since late May (and props to Wizards, because they haven't skimped on the swag - so far we've been able to give away two dozen packs of Fortune Cards, a Shadowfell boxed set, a City tileset, a Rules Compendium, one Heroes of Shadow, and two PHB3s). What I noticed about last season's "Dark Legacy of Evard", both as a player and a GM, is that the format of the event is heavily focused on combat, and any skill challenges are very superficial and provide minimum character interaction. The good news is that most players I've seen come on board supplement this automatically via wordplay with other players - so the desire for role playing is still out there.
Another aspect of Encounters that is frustrating is the sameness of many of the combats. Monsters get heavily recycled throughout the season, and the new design standard seems to be to only use existing monsters from the MMs and MVs. I ended up re-skinning a lot of creatures in "Evard" to make them more interesting for the players and not let them get creature fatigue from fighting nothing but shadows, dusk beasts, and dark ones.
However, I think the new season, "Lost Crown of Neverwinter", is trying to get away from the emphasis on combat by building in more role playing encounters. I have yet to play a session (didn't make it to Neverwinter Game Day and can't go this Wednesday), so I have no firsthand experience as of yet on how well this has been handled. The character themes are a cool concept, though, and I hope those continue to figure into the story line for "Crown".
I think Encounters is building interest in the game, because we've picked up one brand spankin' new player and given some newbies with light experience with Essentials a place to get their fix, but the format by its very nature has to remain modular enough that continuity isn't a big issue for adding and dropping players on a week by week basis. At this point, I'd rather bow out of the weekly Encounters gig and start my own 4E home game where I can highlight some aspects of the system that organized play, IMO, just isn't utilizing to its full potential.
Paizo has taken a fair bit of flak for going the random mini route so maybe this is a good choice for Wizards.
We stand by our conclusion (as detailed in our Press Release FAQ) that only way to do a *broad* line of high-quality prepainted plastic minis is to make use of randomization.
As I understand it, Wizards is not doing a broad line here—just relatively small themed sets—and we've already announced that WizKids will also be doing small, non-random themed sets for the Pathfinder Battles line.
They also have a massive backlog of molds that have presumably already been paid for. If i understood correctly one of the bigest problems a mini line faces is paying for the initial creation process, which is then covered by the volume of random sales. Wizards has at its disposal a big library of potential miniatures that have already been paid for, so there is very little risk in producing non-random sets for those molds. Anything sold is profit minus the labor and materials needed to produce the mini.
So even if they do a large variety of themed sets they wouldn't be running the same risks a new line would have in doing non-random sets.
If WotC are indeed planning to bring back previous editions, even just in PDF form, I think that it would be a very good PR move and a "real" olive branch to the community(as opposed to empty words). Even from a business standpoint, there are previous edition players who are missing a few books, and don't pirate. As it stands currently, I am a huge D&D fan, and the company is not getting any of my money. I'm not aware of too many other companies who's IP has a sizable fanbase that refuses to support the new product. The ones that have, didn't last very long.
What it says to me, and what is most encouraging, is that by publishing older editions again, they recognize that D&D is important across ALL editions; for new players who decide to make this an on-going hobby, maybe they want to see the growth and evolution of the game for themselves, instead of trying to weed out the bias and edition war castoffs through the internet. Maybe they want to see what the original White Plume Mountain and Tomb of Horrors were like, not just newer renditions and adaptations. Another possibility could be an old-school player who's been away for years, and can't find a reliable source to procure the books themselves. Maybe they don't want to tackle a whole-new edition, they just want to run an old AD&D game with a couple of friends on a random night.
I realize it's just speculation and rumor, but as a disgruntled ex-customer, I feel very positive and hopeful for this. Again, even if it's just PDF's.
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I'm sure I'll pick up some PDFs if old D&D PDFs are at DriveThru or Paizo. But one thing I won't do is subscribe to DDI to get them. And frankly, I believe WotC would make people do that.
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Both are you are ignoring the fact that anyone who's a big fan of both Golarion and Greyhawk could actually support BOTH settings. Wacky idea, I know.
That's crazy talk. You can't do two settings. You'd get confused all the time. "Tell me, what year was that temple of Hextor burned down in Augustana again?"
So get real, man.
Support both settings. The nerve on that guy.
The second interview link that Joana posted said something along the lines of WotC producing materials that were friendly to fans of all editions... so I wonder if the "old edition" stuff is not so much that they are republishing previous editions and more that they might put out more boxes and accessories that can by used by all kinds of D&D and fantasy gamers (a la the dungeon tiles, which are usable with any grid-based battle system on a 1 inch=5 foot square scale). This is of course entirely speculation; just a thought.
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I'm sure I'll pick up some PDFs if old D&D PDFs are at DriveThru or Paizo. But one thing I won't do is subscribe to DDI to get them. And frankly, I believe WotC would make people do that.
Yeah, I can imagine them putting out the files in a very restrictive and controlling fashion, i.e. "pay rent" to keep them.
It would be interesting if they re-released each editions core set in cleaned up/errata’d fashion.
The way they deploy this could be an indicator of their overall game plan (besides getting free cash for IP they already own) with their next edition and not just an attempt to solicit older edition players. That is my theory at least.
They could also just be in a recoup money phase – as mentioned they can recycle old molds with newer materials, and they own a ton of IP that they are just sitting on, so this may be nothing more than an a unsupported cash grab via garage sale.
I'm sure I'll pick up some PDFs if old D&D PDFs are at DriveThru or Paizo. But one thing I won't do is subscribe to DDI to get them. And frankly, I believe WotC would make people do that.
Seems likely, doesn't it? :(
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm sure I'll pick up some PDFs if old D&D PDFs are at DriveThru or Paizo. But one thing I won't do is subscribe to DDI to get them. And frankly, I believe WotC would make people do that.Seems likely, doesn't it? :(
Given the comments in the transcription Joana provided upthread, that's my biggest concern.
It can't be 'subscribe and get x books' no one would subscribe for a whole year, they'd go in, grab what they could in a month, and get out.
But if it's subscribe for a year as the example above, then after that first year, if the books can be downloaded their original concerns in pulling the pdfs (well, the rational at the time) would appear again.
I prepare for the worst myself normally.
D&D Encounters is great for getting new people jumped straight into the action to get them hooked on the game.
I wouldn't make it my typical game of choice, however, and there can be a lot of burnout with experienced players.
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But, really, how is this desperate? They're responding directly to requests from the community: non-random minis, and the ability to purchase older edition material. Let's stop looking for ways in which every single decision WotC makes has to be an indication of how the D&D sky is falling, and instead view this as a step towards increasing their community goodwill, hmm?
OMG... I agree with Scott. Which in a level of utter irony means that the sky *is* falling!
;)
OMG... I agree with Scott.
Careful, it's contagious.
