House rule to strengthen rogues

[quetzyl]

Hi,

It is generally accepted that rogues are one of the weaker classes. I am considering the following house rule to strengthen them and make them more flexible:

Replace Trapfinding with one of the following:

Dungeon Delver: Add 1/2 level to all Disable Device and Perception checks.
Socialite: Add 1/2 level to Bluff and Diplomacy
Scout: Add 1/2 level to Stealth and Perception

etc

All rogues can use diable device on magic traps.

Basically rather than getting a bonus to one limited application of 2 skills, they get a general bonus to two skills of their choice.

What do people think? Too strong? I think it make rogues the clear winners in skill use in their area of focus, which gives them a stronger niche.

Cheers,

quetzyl

[Remco Sommeling]

Nice idea, though the post confused me a bit at first..

Maybe instead of trap finding allow the rogue to select two tag skills at first level.

for example:

Disable Device : classic rogue ability, giving a bonus to disable device and allows disabling of magic traps

Perception : add 1/2 rogue level to your perception skill, rogues with this ability can make an active perception check as a free action once per round instead of a move action.

Climbing tag skill : add 1/2 rogue level to your climb skill, rogues with this talent do not lose dex bonus when climbing.

Use Magic Device : add 1/2 rogue level to your UMD skill, rogues with this talent can always take 10 when using UMD.

The classic rogue would pick perception and Disable Device as it's skills, but this gives the rogue the option to pick other skills as well. I'd also like to see rogue talents that allows a rogue to pick additional tag skills.

Awesome idea, I think I'll make it a houserule once I figured out something for all rogue skills.

[IkeDoe]

My 2 cents:

-There is a sub-forum somewhere for house rules.

-The general accepted problem with rogues is their combat performance, not skills (but everyone wants more skills).

-I think that the Rogue works fine in a "standard" campaign (where you can buy all the magic items needed by the Rogue, often related to invisibility and Greater Inv, and prolly having an ally than can cast support spells now and then), actually it works fine in my experience.

The problem comes when you play your campaign, which won't be standard at all.
¿Your GM doesn't use creatures and NPCs with evocation spells, no Traps? Evasion and Trap finding becomes useless, but at least APG archetypes allow you to swap Evasion and Trap finding for something else.
¿few money, low magic environment? not enough consumibles (wands of invisibility, scrolls of Greater Inv, etc..) for your UMD skills = far less chances to use your sneak attack damage = being useless at mid and high levels.

-My House Rule:
Ultimate Combat allows rogues to have Ki points and Ninja Tricks (Vanishing Trick ftw), but Advanced Ninja Trick doesn't seem to be allowed. At high levels you do need Greater Inv, just allow Rogues to choose Advanced Ninja Tricks like "Invisible Blade".

[Thalin]

Biggest issue with rogues is the use of skills in general; few are worth getting to uber-munchkin level. The role of traps has also greatly diminished since 1st / 2nd edition (traps no longer effectively cause instant death if unfound; most just do some HP damage or alert monsters).

What rogues (and many other classes) need is an improved use for skill points. In 3.5 Player's Handbook 2 introduced the awesome concept of "Tactics"; essentially you'd have minimum requirements in various skills; and as a reward you could spend 2 skill points to buy a tactic. Example:

Double-talk: Bluff 6 ranks, Diplomacy 6 ranks. If you fail at a diplomacy check, you may immediately make a bluff check at -5 and replace your diplomacy check.

Or:

Acrobatic charge: Acrobatics 7 ranks, perception 7 ranks. You nay ignore friendly squares when making a charge.

Kind of half-feats (a la traits) bought with skill points.

[Remco Sommeling]

Thalin wrote:

Biggest issue with rogues is the use of skills in general; few are worth getting to uber-munchkin level. The role of traps has also greatly diminished since 1st / 2nd edition (traps no longer effectively cause instant death if unfound; most just do some HP damage or alert monsters).

What rogues (and many other classes) need is an improved use for skill points. In 3.5 Player's Handbook 2 introduced the awesome concept of "Tactics"; essentially you'd have minimum requirements in various skills; and as a reward you could spend 2 skill points to buy a tactic. Example:

Double-talk: Bluff 6 ranks, Diplomacy 6 ranks. If you fail at a diplomacy check, you may immediately make a bluff check at -5 and replace your diplomacy check.

Or:

Acrobatic charge: Acrobatics 7 ranks, perception 7 ranks. You nay ignore friendly squares when making a charge.

Kind of half-feats (a la traits) bought with skill points.

I thought they were skill tricks from the complete scoundrel, but your point stands, I did like the concept.

[magnuskn]

Most needed houserule: Rogues can sneak attack targets which have Concealment or Full Concealment.

No more getting screwed over in dark alleys, unless you are someone with darkvision. >.<

[Asteldian Caliskan]

As others have said, skills are not really the issue. Out of combat ROgues already usually get to have fun, the issue is come combat, despite houserulesyou have still left them disappointed.

Simplist rule we use for Rogues is what I mentioned in another thread:

TWF Specialist: The Rogue can move and attack once with each weapon.

That change alone made our Rogues very happy. At low lvl it simply allows them to keep up when the Fighter types are kicking butt with 2h weapons. At higher lvl they still want to try and Full attack so that they can use ITWF/GTWF/extra attacks due to BAB or Haste.