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A medium barbarian can't weild a large greatsword, no ponalties or anything, he just can't.
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Titan Mauler was one of those things I just didn't get in UC. Unless I'm reading it wrong, I could take one of those, one hand a large greatsword at 3rd lvl, then get enlarged to be wielding a giant greatsword in one hand at 3rd level for a -2 penalty? Am I reading that correctly?
The only real beef I have is the fact that Paizo seems to have made a point of not allowing oversized weapons period before this, which makes me assume the game previously was somewhat balanced around this given. Except that now its no longer a given.
Titan Mauler would not let you wield a Large greatsword in one hand, only a medium one. It specifies that the weapon must be appropriately sized for you. Though it's arguable if that would then let you wield a Large greatsword in two hands.
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Titan Mauler:
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose
to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2
penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must
be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-
handed when determining the effect of Power Attack...
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler
becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted
from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using
weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this
reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd
(to a minimum of 0).
-- What I take from this is the following: a Titan Mauler barbarian can wield a large-bastardsword or large-waraxe in one hand (Jotungrip) at a (-2 + -2 = -4) penalty. This penalty is gradually reduced (Massive Weapons) until is it eliminated at 12th level.
(IMO Titan Mauler is interesting, but it's nowhere as practical as Brutal Pugilist combined with Drunken Brute -- the ability to swig potions as a move-action without provoking, and to get opps on ImpGrab monsters, is concentrated pure awesome.)
Titan Mauler would not let you wield a Large greatsword in one hand, only a medium one. It specifies that the weapon must be appropriately sized for you. Though it's arguable if that would then let you wield a Large greatsword in two hands.
It's a badly worded archtype description, to be sure. Your first sentence is correct; the second one is an extrapolation which, while reasonable, isn't explicitly supported. (It would also mean that I should be able to two-hand a huge-bastardsword or waraxe, and be rolling 15d8 at 12th while ImpVitStr with Enlarged + Lead Blades.
What I take from this is the following: a Titan Mauler barbarian can wield a large-bastardsword or large-waraxe in one hand (Jotungrip) at a (-2 + -2 = -4) penalty. This penalty is gradually reduced (Massive Weapons) until is it eliminated at 12th level.
This seems like the way it works to me as well; it would allow a medium character to use a large one-handed weapon, or a small character to use a medium one-handed weapon.
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i don't think you'd be able to wield the large weapon in one hand.
but you'd be able to take the -4 and wield the large weapon two handed.
jotungrip lets you wield a 2HD medium weapon in one hand. so when you step up the size of the weapon and take a -2 for using the larger version, you can use 2 hands. otherwise the rules for stepping up weapon size would prohibit you from being able to wield a large weapon. you just wouldn't have the hand space. by 12th level your penalty would disappear.
Titan Mauler:
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose
to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2
penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must
be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-
handed when determining the effect of Power Attack...Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler
becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted
from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using
weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this
reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd
(to a minimum of 0).-- What I take from this is the following: a Titan Mauler barbarian can wield a large-bastardsword or large-waraxe in one hand (Jotungrip) at a (-2 + -2 = -4) penalty. This penalty is gradually reduced (Massive Weapons) until is it eliminated at 12th level.
(IMO Titan Mauler is interesting, but it's nowhere as practical as Brutal Pugilist combined with Drunken Brute -- the ability to swig potions as a move-action without provoking, and to get opps on ImpGrab monsters, is concentrated pure awesome.)
Titan Mauler would not let you wield a Large greatsword in one hand, only a medium one. It specifies that the weapon must be appropriately sized for you. Though it's arguable if that would then let you wield a Large greatsword in two hands.It's a badly worded archtype description, to be sure. Your first sentence is correct; the second one is an extrapolation which, while reasonable, isn't explicitly supported. (It would also mean that I should be able to two-hand a huge-bastardsword or waraxe, and be rolling 15d8 at 12th while ImpVitStr with Enlarged + Lead Blades.
The way I read this, you can either wield a medium 2H weapon in one hand and a -2 penalty OR wield a large 1H weapon (or a huge light weapon) as a 2H weapon with a reduced penalty. This is because of the "must be appropriately sized" requirement on Jotungrip.
Is this what was intended? I don't know - it means Massive Weapons caps out at 12th level because you can't ever take more than a -4 for size differences (and thus the 15th level and 18th level boosts are wasted). I doubt that was what was intended.
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Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose
to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2
penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must
be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-
handed when determining the effect of Power Attack...
i'm not seeing how they stack.
a large bastard sword still isnt appropriately sized for a medium character. they need EWP bastard sword to weild it at all (making it a large 1 handed weapon they could then 2 hand).
it doesnt let them 1 hand large weapons.
In most cases, wielding a large 1-handed weapon in two hands is bad, because damage-wise they're usually equivalent to a medium 2-handed weapon. The exceptions being bastard swords and waraxes with the appropriate proficiency, as 1d10 scales to 2d8 and is thus better than a greatsword.
I could see some interesting usage of TWF with Jotungrip. A greatsword and a shield would make a decent shield bash build, though barbarians generally aren't much for TWF builds.
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose
to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2
penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must
be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-
handed when determining the effect of Power Attack...i'm not seeing how they stack.
a large bastard sword still isnt appropriately sized for a medium character. they need EWP bastard sword to weild it at all (making it a large 1 handed weapon they could then 2 hand).
it doesnt let them 1 hand large weapons.
+1
Lets be honest, the only reason we want oversized two-handed weapons is because the majority of them do 1d10 points of damage which becomes 2d8 and then when enlarged becomes 3d8.
It seems there are only two options here to go with. You either take EWP so you can wield a normal bastard sword with one hand and then upgrade to an oversized bastard sword or you play a dwarf barbarian and use an oversized Dwarven War Axe.
Has the inappropriately sized weapon argument ever been FAQ?
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The way I read this, you can either wield a medium 2H weapon in one hand and a -2 penalty OR wield a large 1H weapon (or a huge light weapon) as a 2H weapon with a reduced penalty. This is because of the "must be appropriately sized" requirement on Jotungrip.
I was thinking this way initially, but then you would have class abilities in a single set that cannot work together in any way. That doesn't make sense; I can't recall any two abilities of a single class that simply cannot function together at all.
I believe jotungrip's "must be appropriately sized" requirement doesn't indicate that the weapon must be the same size as the character. Instead I think it means that the weapon must be of a size that the character can wield. As such, a medium character could utilize the ability with a large one-handed weapon, which he could normally use in two hands with a penalty, but not a large two-handed weapon, which he normally can't use at all.
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but a medium character could already wield a large one handed weapon, with a -2 penatly, no ? it would just take two hands.
i think the intent is to let characters use large, two handed weapons.
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler
becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted
from her titanic foes.
giants usually wield two handed , large or huge weapons.
without jotungrip ( giant grip ) aka. monkey grip, a medium character can't wield a large two handed weapon at all. at second level they can with a -4, and its not an awful thing. all they would get is a 3d6 weapon instead of a 2d6. with a -4 penalty to hit =P
they'd have to wait until 12th level to reduce the penalty to 0.
isn't that the whole point of the archtype ? to use big weapons ?
@Mike Schneider
How can a barbarian access the spell lead blades?
UMDing a wand with a 1 minute per level ranger only spell?
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a large bastard sword still isnt appropriately sized for a medium character.
This is incorrect. A bastardsword is a one-handed weapon for medium-sized creatures. A large one is a two-handed weapon for medium-sized creatures.
A weapon which exceeds the size of "two-handed weapon for n-sized creatures" cannot be used by that size creature.
EWP simply addresses penalties intregal to certain weapons -- it has nothing to do with size.
The problem with the text of Massive Weapons is its "flavor text" rather clearly implies that a Titan Mauler ought to be able to use otherwise too-big weapons, but no mechanic is provided to do so -- just penalty alleviation for using weapons already permitted by other mechanisms.
- - - - -
The DPR champ TM weapon would be large-falcata: fight with a greatsword until 6th, then buy your +1/keen/furious large-falcata and two hand it until 12th....when you continue two-handing it because you'd be a retard to give up all that 50% extra damage from STR and PA by going S&B.
Best character-build use of Titan Mauler is, therefore, six levels of barbarian multiclassed into ranger or fighter or both, for the purposes of using a large (waraxe, bastardsword or falcata) two-handed without penalty (the overall attack-bonus gain for an "otherwise all-fighter" build is +6: two from rage, two from Reckless Abandon +2, and two from Jotungrip eliminating a -2 penalty). The att+6 comes at the cost of AC-4, however.
@Mike Schneider
How can a barbarian access the spell lead blades?
UMDing a wand with a 1 minute per level ranger only spell?Besides that....
1. Drink a potion you bought at Ye Olde FleetFarm.
2. Own prayer beads and have a ranger friend.
3. Have four levels of ranger (and maybe Scribe Scroll).
Lead blades can't be made into potions.
What are the prayer beads?|
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Lead blades can't be made into potions.Says who/what/where?
What are the prayer beads?
Nevermind; I had that confused for ring of spell-storing or vibrant purple ioun stone or whatever it was that Living Greyhawk banned after clerics would cast Righteous Might into 'em and then hand them to the tanks.
Lead blades can't be made into potions.
Says who/what/where?Only spells with a target of one or more creatures can be put into potions, Lead Blades has a target of touch.
I'd be careful saying that "appropriately sized" means that the effective weapon size would be between light and two-handed, because then when you look at the Massive Weapons ability, "inappropriately sized" would then mean that the Titan Mauler could wield weapons that are effectively larger than two-handed.
If the titan Mauler could wield weapons that were larger then two handed, it would be a useful ability, as it stands it allows them a broader array of greatswords, which I dont think anyone was all that psyched about.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
After going through the UC book I was reading up on the firearms rules. During this I came across a section about using oversized weapons.
Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.
Now correct me if I am wrong the way that I understand the argument against creatures is the claim about the last line.
If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
Which I guess the claim is that the weapon would be changed to something other than a two-handed weapon. Although I must say that this argument continues to bug me because it is still a two-hand weapon because larger creatures that it is sized for would be able to use it as such.
These two entries on the subject seem to be in contradiction with each other unless firearms are the exception to the rule. In any case I am suddenly seeing a Titian Mauler using oversized Pepperbox rifle which seems to be well within the rules.
So could you as a med sized Titan Mauler wield a medium sized greatsword in one hand, and a large longsword(or better 1-handed weapon) in the other? what would the attacks be for that assuming twf and all that and how would the damage look?
Well, if what I found helps solves this the old argument about oversized weapons then it would depend on the level of your Titan Mauler and what feats you have. You would need to at least be at the bare minimum of level 3 so that you have both the abilities jotungrip and massive weapons. Personally I think the penalties would not be worth it.
At level 3 with no feats you would have a penalty -8 with your primary and a -13 with your off hand. This is because both would be considered two-handed weapons being used in one hand and the penalty for that is -2 then you have the penalties for using two weapons( primary -6 + -10 offhand), and lastly you are using oversized weapons which is normally a -2 (for what you described) but it is reduced by 1 because of the massive weapons.
At level 3 with the two weapon fighting feat you would have a penalty -6 with your primary and - 7 off hand. This is because both would be considered two-handed weapons being used in one hand and the penalty for that is -2 then you have the penalties for using two weapons( primary -4 + -4 offhand), and lastly you are using oversized weapons which is normally a -2 (for what you described) but it is reduced by 1 because of the massive weapons.
If you had improved Two-weapon fighting then the extra off hand attack would be a -8.
At level 6 you would loose the over-sized penalties but that would only be 1 less because it doesn't translate into bonuses.
So as you can see this is not really viable unless you had +5 weapons, weapon focuses and so on to offset the huge penalties and then you would need to be a high level. You would probably be better off just using an oversized two-hander so that you could take advantage of the Strength bonus increase.
The main reason a Large Shortsword isn't wieldable like a longsword is because of the hilt.
Think of the size of size L creature's hand. It's very, very big.
The average hilt of a sword is an inch thick, or less. think of a broomstick.
For a size L creature, that hilt is twice as thick, for huge, three times. Think of trying to wield a stabbing sword with a hilt as thick as a baseball bat.
That's why Amiri with her Huge Shortsword become Greatsword doesn't work. She wouldn't be able to get her hands around the hilt of a Frost Giant's Short sword. It would be a good foot around! A Large bastard sword would be awkward enough swinging around...and should be longer then she is tall (about 8' long). They did a decent job with the dimensions of it as a shortsword, although she's never seen using the shortsword as a piercing weapon, just a hugely overthick greatsword.
===Aelryinth
That's why Amiri with her Huge Shortsword become Greatsword doesn't work. She wouldn't be able to get her hands around the hilt of a Frost Giant's Short sword. It would be a good foot around! A Large bastard sword would be awkward enough swinging around...and should be longer then she is tall (about 8' long). They did a decent job with the dimensions of it as a shortsword, although she's never seen using the shortsword as a piercing weapon, just a hugely overthick greatsword.
===Aelryinth
I actually just finished reading Amiri's "Meet the Iconics" blog post to refresh my memory about what she wields. It says its a Large Bastard Sword. I haven't read her official stat block (or anything else about her) though, so is the blog post inaccurate?
The main reason a Large Shortsword isn't wieldable like a longsword is because of the hilt.
Think of the size of size L creature's hand. It's very, very big.
The average hilt of a sword is an inch thick, or less. think of a broomstick.
For a size L creature, that hilt is twice as thick, for huge, three times. Think of trying to wield a stabbing sword with a hilt as thick as a baseball bat.
That's why Amiri with her Huge Shortsword become Greatsword doesn't work. She wouldn't be able to get her hands around the hilt of a Frost Giant's Short sword. It would be a good foot around! A Large bastard sword would be awkward enough swinging around...and should be longer then she is tall (about 8' long). They did a decent job with the dimensions of it as a shortsword, although she's never seen using the shortsword as a piercing weapon, just a hugely overthick greatsword.
===Aelryinth
OK Twice as thick is not that big of a deal of a large hilt, I mean come on that is one 2 inches thick is not very thick and can be easily held with only a little bit of difficulty. Granted three inches thick for a huge weapon would be harder to hold so that argument would make sense. But also take in mine I think that is why their is the cumulative penalties come into play. It is just not the heft of the weapon but it is how you can hold it.
I do agree about the length of a weapon however and if you are outside or have plenty of room to swing such a weapon then all the more power to you. For your standard dungeon crawl I would severally penalize you in confined areas considering such weapons as we are talking about are Slashing weapons but in reality they are not slicing but chopping so you need a full swing.
I could see an oversized maul being used because it is a blunt weapon and blunt weapons can be used to make a thrusting motion attack instead of a swinging.
Also as a GM I would argue that carrying around a weapon bigger than you are would create further complications, like walking, going through doorways, riding horses.
I actually just finished reading Amiri's "Meet the Iconics" blog post to refresh my memory about what she wields. It says its a Large Bastard Sword. I haven't read her official stat block (or anything else about her) though, so is the blog post inaccurate?That's why Amiri with her Huge Shortsword become Greatsword doesn't work. She wouldn't be able to get her hands around the hilt of a Frost Giant's Short sword. It would be a good foot around! A Large bastard sword would be awkward enough swinging around...and should be longer then she is tall (about 8' long). They did a decent job with the dimensions of it as a shortsword, although she's never seen using the shortsword as a piercing weapon, just a hugely overthick greatsword.
===Aelryinth
if you read the backhistory fiction on her, it's the shortsword of a frost giant who died falling off a mountain. Frost Giants are size H.
Try to wield a shortsword with a hilt the circumference of a baseball bat. Not too effective.
Amiri's sword is a large bastard sword in the 3.5 statblocks on her.
===Aelryinth
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Here is HOW it works boys and girls via "wording"
Jotungrip allows "appropriated sized" THW weapons meaning if you are medium you are allow to wield it "1 hand" as if it was a one handed type weapon with a penalty of -2, which if you couldn't do
Massive Weapons allows "Inappropriate sized weapons" to be wielded in frame work you suffer a -2 for each size grade too large of equitable weapons example...a "Large Dagger" is a One Handed Weapon to you but you still suffer a -2 for ill size it's not meant for your "size" if it's a large size long sword you suffer a -4 cause technicality is it's a "large two handed weapon" but meant for a "large" character if you try to use a large sized great sword you take a -6 meaning the large size great sword is the finale another example
huge sized dagger is a "Two Handed Weapon" meaning you take a -4 to wield it as such cause it's not a proper "weapon" it's not BUILT for your size it deals the "Large Size Dagger Damage" no matter what size grade you are....BUT this ability does not make them appropriate size for you, you negates penalties meaning JotunGrip still only applies to the "Two Handed Weapons of you Size Grade built for your SIZE GRADE"
Light = 2 sizes grade smaller
One Handed = 1 size grade greater
Two Handed = even size
Nothing goes past this line EVER
Smaller sized weapon also grade down too so a {}Small Dagger is a -2 a Tiny Dagger -4{}, a Small Long Sword -2 Tiny Long Sword -4, {}Small Great Sword -2, Tiny Great Sword -4{} note there is nothing smaller than tiny but if you are a large sized character it be a -6 as the weapon would be 3 grades smaller thus -6 if huge sized used a tiny sized it be a -8 wow look at that...
by the way it's cause of hand size and handling too small of pummels/hilts or weight balances etc. the size of the weaponry itself compared to your own size category is what counts
Large Dagger = One handed for mediums with a -2 penalty
Huge Dagger = Two Handed weapon for mediums which is a -4 penalty
Large Long Sword = Two handed for mediums with a -2 penalty
Huge Long Sword = Unusable it's past the Two handed grade upon size up
Large Great Sword = Unusable
Bastard swords are a special case weapon they ONLY turn one handed if you are trained in them
this is a special case they are Two Handed Weapons without the feat thus
No feat = unusable for a medium char using a large bastard sword
Feat = using this over sized weapon is -2 as Bastard swords turn into a "One Handed Weapon" and by RULES One Handed Weapons CAN be used two handed as the same of normal Two Handed Weapons while Light Weapons cannot but used 2 handed bonus
( know I necroed but was the most recent google search and I finally solved the equation unlike anybody else I at least tried to clear this up and I'm aware the stuff does need some wording errata etc.)
Im sorry but specific text supercedes base rules. As long as your willing the take the penalty the only thing Jotungrip and Massive weapons actually says is that you can use (ANY) weapon that is too large for you. So at 12th you would be at -4 -4 dual weilding large greatswords. with the appropriate TWF feats.
Im sorry but specific text supercedes base rules. As long as your willing the take the penalty the only thing Jotungrip and Massive weapons actually says is that you can use (ANY) weapon that is too large for you. So at 12th you would be at -4 -4 dual weilding large greatswords. with the appropriate TWF feats.
Wrong.
It does not allow you to use a weapon that is larger than twohanded. It doesn't state that it overrules the base rule in any way. It doesn't even tell you you can wield a large twohanded weapon. Except for the fluff there is nothing that even indicates it could be possible.In PF there is NO WAY to wield a large twohanded weapon as a medium creature. And it is good that way.
And +1 to what BBT said.
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Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_table-6-5-tiny-and-large -weapon-damage
What exactly are you getting at? This text was already quoted above, and you've posted no conclusion with it, so I'm not sure I'm following your point.
Arise, thread! Thread arise!
To put it plainly, there is no way, no how for a Medium Titan Mauler to wield a bigger-than-Medium two-handed weapon simply by using her Titan Mauler class features. She can enlarge herself to Large. She can use the variant tiefling feature that grants oversized limbs. But with Titan Mauler abilities alone, no dice.
Too bad an alchemist with a vestigial arm can't wield a large two-handed weapon as a three-handed weapon. As a former Kingdom of Loathing player, I has a sad.
Nothing to add, but I'm curious why all these really old threads are getting necroed. I've read several in the past couple of days that hadn't had any activity in months or years.
I am curious as well. I understand if someone comes across a thread by googling it and asks a question but doesn't realize/care that the thread is old, but how does one come across an old thread with the intent to answer a question? Especially one with this topic.
That said, I would like to say thunder and fang and run away laughing.
yes, you can hold a weapon in one hand.