@InVinoVeritas
How are you getting prof. in the warhammer in order to take the weapon training rogue talent for it?
Is everyone missing the lvl of Fighter dip? :P
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Nice thread, TOZ. Reminds me of my 1E days with my dwarf fighter/thief. If the party needed a heavy front-line fighter, he ditched the leather armor in favor of platemail. Took a pounding on a lot of thief skills, but he could tank with the best of them. :)
Relatedly, a wizard/sorcerer could (if willing to face the 5-10% ASF chance) wear padded or leather armor at no penalty.
...or the new Eastern Armor with +1 AC and 0% ASF.
Yup. Finally can get away from the extortionist rates of Bracers of Armor.
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Relatedly, a wizard/sorcerer could (if willing to face the 5-10% ASF chance) wear padded or leather armor at no penalty....or the new Eastern Armor with +1 AC and 0% ASF.
Yup. Finally can get away from the extortionist rates of Bracers of Armor.
What? I've been wearing an Armored Kilt for a while now.
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You could make a rogue with heavy armor, but you're probably better off basing such a character off of the bard or one of it's archetypes. The loss of acrobatics and stealth as well as the loss of speed means that the rogue's one already fickle way of doing significant damage, sneak attack, just got that much harder to pull off.It depends upon what the "rogue" looks like. If he's a gnome, fuggetaboutit. If he's an orc jailer used to Vital Strike/Power Attack/Sneak Attacking shackled prisoners (i.e., punching them in the gut and kicking them in the groin), the sneak attack is just part of his repartee.
I have more trouble picturing a rogue theme wise in full plate then mechanically. I just couldn't picture it. Mike however did a good job of painting it for me.
I've been making characters like this forever, much to the chagrin of my fellow players (which is an odd reaction, as I'm usually the min/maxer).
Is everyone missing the lvl of Fighter dip? :P@InVinoVeritas
How are you getting prof. in the warhammer in order to take the weapon training rogue talent for it?
Yes i did. I kept thinking of dipping for armor prof. that i forgot about the weapon profs.
Ok now i have to ask:
Why warhammer and not, let's say falchion?
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Well Barbarians would be a net loss of 20 feet of movement, the bonus 10 for fast movement and then wearing heavy armor. Dwarves and Barbarians in Mithral Full Plate not giving a darn of course.
I usually look at summoners and just throw out the spell casting aspect and focus on a more melee orientated character, wading in the the Eidolon or the other summoned monsters. Sure they've got a decent spell list in parts, but at the same time they're at rogue bab so a level of fighter is a nice mix for armor/weapon profs and a feat.
Yes. to some the tradeoffs are acceptable, to others not. A lot of spellcaster players won't even tolerate a 5 percent ASF chance. Others won't tolerate the reduced movement of medium or heavy armor. (not everyone can get mithral!) And for others the loss of certain class abilities are dealbreakers enough themselves.
This is the best summation of this thread I've seen. I especially like the mentioning of the fact that mithral isn't an automatic in many campaigns. The only thing I would add is that it depends a lot on the group as a whole as well. A lot of the alternative builds require the others at the table to adjust their characters accordingly to fill unexpected gaps or deal with unexpected duplication that may or may not be welcome. Saying you are making a rogue and showing up in a character wearing heavy armor without warning is going to cause headaches for everyone if everyone else is built along the typically expected norms. On the other hand, if the group has a history of creative builds and an experienced DM able to make things up on the fly, it will be less of a problem.
OOOH OOH I'll do the monk -- this will be fun!
It depends upon what the "rogue" looks like.
Agreed. I'm currently playing a Rogue 4(scout/thug)/Cavalier 1+(Cockatrice, Favored class) and he's essentially built with intimidate/flanking/charging (an opportunist of sorts) in mind. I never considered taking heavy armor, already wearing a mithril chain shirt, but only losing evasion and in a trap-lite campaign... I'm considering it now.
OOOH OOH I'll do the monk -- this will be fun!
Where's the "Monk Tank" archetype at? lol
They could get CMB bonuses to bullrush and overrun, as well as to CMD vs. trip due to weight, to coincide with some nasty penalties to acrobatics and no fast movement. Oh yea, the ability to use Spike Gauntlets without the weapon/armor debate, though Cestus has fixed that in a sense.
OOOH OOH I'll do the monk -- this will be fun!
Don't forget archetypes aren't all limited by armor.
Monk archetypes:
Zen Archer/Monk of Empty Hand replaces Flurry of blows (which is limited by armor) technically, it's flurry isn't limited by armor.
Monk of Sacred Mountain replaces evasion (limited by armor) for NA and toughness.
Weapon Adept replaces Evasion (limited by armor) for Weapon Focus/Specialization.
OOOH OOH I'll do the monk -- this will be fun!
Don't forget archetypes aren't all limited by armor.
Monk archetypes:
Zen Archer/Monk of Empty Hand replaces Flurry of blows (which is limited by armor) technically, it's flurry isn't limited by armor.Monk of Sacred Mountain replaces evasion (limited by armor) for NA and toughness.
Weapon Adept replaces Evasion (limited by armor) for Weapon Focus/Specialization.
I'm aware! I'm actually looking at Sensei more though. I'll post later tonight or tomorrow.
I'm aware! I'm actually looking at Sensei more though. I'll post later tonight or tomorrow.
I think this is probably the way to go about doing an armored monk.
Granted, Sohei + Master of many Styles might work out very well for armor use.
Granted, I'm always apprehensive about losing flurry with a monk. It's the primary method of doing significant damage for the class, and sacrificing the majority of the class's DPR for some extra AC might not be worth it.
I'm aware! I'm actually looking at Sensei more though. I'll post later tonight or tomorrow.I think this is probably the way to go about doing an armored monk.
Granted, Sohei + Master of many Styles might work out very well for armor use.
Granted, I'm always apprehensive about losing flurry with a monk. It's the primary method of doing significant damage for the class, and sacrificing the majority of the class's DPR for some extra AC might not be worth it.
Sensai helps with the damage front since you are gaining a regular +1~+4 to hit and damage (putting you in the area of full BAB -- but without the extra hit).
I need to double check and see if master of the four winds sense (or master of many styles) is a possibility (dropping stunning fist means I drop my wisdom dependency just that much more).
At the point I'm dipping into fighter levels it might be worthwhile to take several more than just a few in order to get some archetype goodness from there as well.
Sensai helps with the damage front since you are gaining a regular +1~+4 to hit and damage (putting you in the area of full BAB -- but without the extra hit).
Wouldn't plating-up a Bard be essentially the same thing? Well, until the armor comes off.
Sensai helps with the damage front since you are gaining a regular +1~+4 to hit and damage (putting you in the area of full BAB -- but without the extra hit).Wouldn't plating-up a Bard be essentially the same thing? Well, until the armor comes off.
No a bard wouldn't be the same thing.
1. Bard doesn't have 3 good save throws.
2. Bard has magic -- something people might want to avoid.
3. Bard doesn't have the means of replacing attack bonus with wisdom (if desired) or CMB checks with wisdom.
4. Bard doesn't have the increased CMD.
5. Advice is Extra-ordinary Bardic Performance is Supernatural (in general) -- meaning a Sensei is better in an anti-magic field... or Alkenstar.
6. Base Damage -- the monk will have much more of it.
Honestly though a Martial Artist Sensei could be nice too... since you can take fighter feats with your monk levels.
So, next thing to put on my list of characters is a Sensei fencing master with aldori dueling swords. Probably a rare and awesome instance where the monk doesn't have to be monklike at all.
Sensai helps with the damage front since you are gaining a regular +1~+4 to hit and damage (putting you in the area of full BAB -- but without the extra hit).I need to double check and see if master of the four winds sense (or master of many styles) is a possibility (dropping stunning fist means I drop my wisdom dependency just that much more).
At the point I'm dipping into fighter levels it might be worthwhile to take several more than just a few in order to get some archetype goodness from there as well.
Hmmm.... You'll still need Wisdom for performance right? It seems strange actually to try to decrease the dependence on a stat that is important for keeping that up.
Also, I don't think Master of Many Styles stacks with Sensei.
Sensai helps with the damage front since you are gaining a regular +1~+4 to hit and damage (putting you in the area of full BAB -- but without the extra hit).I need to double check and see if master of the four winds sense (or master of many styles) is a possibility (dropping stunning fist means I drop my wisdom dependency just that much more).
At the point I'm dipping into fighter levels it might be worthwhile to take several more than just a few in order to get some archetype goodness from there as well.
Hmmm.... You'll still need Wisdom for performance right? It seems strange actually to try to decrease the dependence on a stat that is important for keeping that up.
Also, I don't think Master of Many Styles stacks with Sensei.
On the first point -- to some extent yes -- it's a question of how much you want/need. As for master of many styles and Sensei -- I used the word "or".
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Is everyone missing the lvl of Fighter dip? :P@InVinoVeritas
How are you getting prof. in the warhammer in order to take the weapon training rogue talent for it?
Yes i did. I kept thinking of dipping for armor prof. that i forgot about the weapon profs.
Ok now i have to ask:
Why warhammer and not, let's say falchion?
This one was for sword and board. But yeah, feel free to switch out the warhammer for any martial weapon you like.
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And now I'm of to see if there's a niche to be filled by a full plated dwarven rogue.
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1. Bard doesn't have 3 good save throws.
2. Bard has magic -- something people might want to avoid.
3. Bard doesn't have the means of replacing attack bonus with wisdom (if desired) or CMB checks with wisdom.
4. Bard doesn't have the increased CMD.
5. Advice is Extra-ordinary Bardic Performance is Supernatural (in general) -- meaning a Sensei is better in an anti-magic field... or Alkenstar.
6. Base Damage -- the monk will have much more of it.
Bard gets the ladies while monk with vow of chastity cries on the inside.
Winner: bard.
I built a 2H ninja a while ago that could be adapted to fit in a lvl dip of fighter. Though, I would hate to delay invisible blade a lvl :/ He would wield a 2H Mace, dealing nonlethal dmg whenever possible.
Grask, Half-Orc Ninja
lvl 1 (fighter): Bludgeoner, Blind-Fight
2:
3:Combat Expertise / Vanishing Trick
4:
5:Sap Adept / Offensive Defense
6:
7:Sap Master / Insert Trick Here
8:
9:Moonlight Stalker / Insert another trick here
10:
11:Moonlight Stalker Feint / Invisible Blade
Not Optimal, but gets to use two feat chains I have pretty much never seen anyone use before.
Interesting, though with 1 more feat you can have 60% miss chance with Moonlight Stalker Master.
I never got to run him, he was my backup character in case my monk died but we managed to finish the campaign without anymore deaths.
So, heavy armor.
Something neat-
If you have no armor check penalty, you take no to-hit penalty for wearing armor you aren't proficient in.
Mithril full plate with a steelbone frame, and the armor master trait = full plate with no armor check penalty at all- no penalty for non-proficiency.
Alternatively, drop the armor master trait, and take the comfort enchantment instead, though it comes online later.
My favorite "What do you really lose" regarding Heavy Armor is the Psychic.
Since psychic spellcasting doesn't suffer any kind of spell failure better (you can do it while completely immobilized) and past the point where the Psychic can afford the full plate armor, you're not going to be making a lot of attack rolls anyway because your spell list isn't for blasting so applying your ACP to attacks is meaningless , so just wonder around in the most protective thing you can find. Double-plated Armored Kilt Fortress Plate, or something.
My favorite "What do you really lose" regarding Heavy Armor is the Psychic.
Since psychic spellcasting doesn't suffer any kind of spell failure better (you can do it while completely immobilized) and past the point where the Psychic can afford the full plate armor, you're not going to be making a lot of attack rolls anyway because your spell list isn't for blasting so applying your ACP to attacks is meaningless , so just wonder around in the most protective thing you can find. Double-plated Armored Kilt Fortress Plate, or something.
What you lose is initiative. If you get some bonuses you get a net cancellation and if you don't you have a negative init.
Now if you're okay with that then it's awesome (I have a mesmerist that has a full plate and tower shield) but that's the trade off.
My favorite "What do you really lose" regarding Heavy Armor is the Psychic.
Since psychic spellcasting doesn't suffer any kind of spell failure better (you can do it while completely immobilized) and past the point where the Psychic can afford the full plate armor, you're not going to be making a lot of attack rolls anyway because your spell list isn't for blasting so applying your ACP to attacks is meaningless , so just wonder around in the most protective thing you can find. Double-plated Armored Kilt Fortress Plate, or something.
What you lose is initiative. If you get some bonuses you get a net cancellation and if you don't you have a negative init.
Now if you're okay with that then it's awesome (I have a mesmerist that has a full plate and tower shield) but that's the trade off.
Why would armor affect initiative? It's a dex check, but it is not a dex skill check, and ACP only applies to skill checks (and attack rolls if nonproficient).
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Non-proficiency applies the ACP to all Str and Dex checks.
A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.
Ooo, was just looking at that and missed the "ability and" part. Thanks!
I decided to snoop around looking for rogue in full plate ideas just because I was curious as to what you could get, and I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring for how to make certain things work.
1: If you don't care about skills but want a Ranger's combat styles or Barbarian's Fast Movement. Mithral full plate is fine. (though does fast movement work with medium armor or just light)
but ask if +2 ac is worth a feat and a material compared to your breastplates.
2: If you want Skills. Not really a full plate discussion but a Mithral Breastplate of Comfort reduces your check penalties to -2, which is only as bad as a Chain Shirt (although my current source may be out of date). Which... Granted +2 armor class in exchange for a feat (or a class level) and a material isn't really worthwhile, but I could definitely see some character concepts with this.
Namely the idea of a brutish brigand/highwayman flanking with a big club or other two handed weapon. OR if you're willing to make a really weird multiclass you could go straight up fighter rogue for that one (and 10 fighter and 10 rogue will make your ACP 0.
If you want Casting as a bard:
Mithral Breastplate with Arcane Armor Training is sufficient since it's like 20%. although you'd technically count it as light armor anyway so you wouldn't actually need arcane armor training.
(And multi classing for this could be an interesting way to get into Battle Herald)
Full plate has 35%
Arcane Armor Mastery gives us -20 as a swift action
Mithril Full plate reduces it by 10%
So we're at 5%.. Not the greatest.
Signifier Armor Training from Path of the Hellknight lets us reduce it by 30, but only when wearing hell knight armor... This actually means a lot.
A Mithril suit of Hellknight armor means that a 1 level fighter dip for a Wizard or Sorcerer can actually basically use Full Plate with relative ease. AND if you're willing to play with the "Force of Law" style along with it you can gain access to the Hellknight Enforcer which gives no reduction to your caster level and increases your hit die from a d6 to a d8.. I honestly didn't think that I'd be finding myself in this particular rabbit hole, but it's there.