| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Magic Jar appears useful but some of the wording, largely unchanged since 3.X, isn't always clear. Care to take a shot at it?
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless.
In this case, I believe it should say: "your body appears lifeless". If your body were truly lifeless for the 9+ hours of the spell's duration then decomposition would become a very real concern.
Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.
Right. So one can't target non-sentient undead with this spell, though sentient undead are all fair game. So what about incorporeal undead? Is there a distinction between an incorporeal undead's soul and its physical form? Can one possess an incorporeal undead's form/body?
Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.I would assume that this sentence should incorporate the addendum "...within the duration of this spell." It's an important distinction if a target is forevermore immune to your attempts to possess it once it succeeds on a single saving throw.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.Is the soul aware of anything, such as the passage of time, while it is imprisoned?
The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.What exactly are "natural" and "automatic" abilities? Can someone offer up examples?
A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
I'm puzzled by what is being implied here. Is this intended to set a limit on wielding melee weapons? Does the caster gain a monstrous body's regular attack routine (ex.: bite, claw, claw, wing, wing if a dragon) based off of the caster's own BAB or is she limited to the number of attacks she'd normally receive by virtue of her BAB but using the monster's natural weapons (ex.: bite +6/+1).
The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
Is this meant to apply to casting a possessed creature's spells, or is it meant to broadly encompass any spells or spell-like abilities which the creature already had active at the time of possession?
Those are enough questions to get started. =)
So what about incorporeal undead? Is there a distinction between an incorporeal undead's soul and its physical form? Can one possess an incorporeal undead's form/body?
-I'm going to think no.
I would assume that this sentence should incorporate the addendum "...within the duration of this spell." It's an important distinction if a target is forevermore immune to your attempts to possess it once it succeeds on a single saving throw.
That's probably the intent, or i would make it 24 hours just to keep someone from recasting magic jar.
Is the soul aware of anything, such as the passage of time, while it is imprisoned?
SInce it doesn't say its not, i would think that it is aware of itself and the passage of time. However being blind deaf dumb and unable to feel your body will probably screw with your perceptions.
The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.
Dwarf:
Slow and Steady: Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance. :
natural ability.
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet: natural ability.
Defensive Training: Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype:
NOT a natural ability. It comes from life experience and training.
Greed: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks made to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.:
-Not a natural ability. Its something they learned in 50 years of mining.
Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes due to special training against these hated foes:
-Not a natural ability. Its all in their head.
Hardy: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities:
-Natural ability. Its physiology.
Stability: Dwarves receive a +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground:
-Natural ability: you got the dwarf model with the low center of gravity.
Stonecunning: Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on Perception checks to potentially notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone walls or floors. They receive a check to notice such features whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, whether or not they are actively looking.:
-Not a natural ability. The dwarf spent 50 years being at one with the earth. You didn't.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.:
-Not a natural ability. The dwarves train in war axes. You dont.
I'm puzzled by what is being implied here. Is this intended to set a limit on wielding melee weapons? Does the caster gain a monstrous body's regular attack routine (ex.: bite, claw, claw, wing, wing if a dragon) based off of the caster's own BAB or is she limited to the number of attacks she'd normally receive by virtue of her BAB but using the monster's natural weapons (ex.: bite +6/+1)
natural attacks are fine, you can use them at will.
What they don't want you doing is taking over the body of a 4 armed garilion and using 4 bastard swords or 2 greatswords.
Is this meant to apply to casting a possessed creature's spells, or is it meant to broadly encompass any spells or spell-like abilities which the creature already had active at the time of possession?
- I can't think of any spell like abilities that stick around
That's probably the intent, or i would make it 24 hours just to keep someone from recasting magic jar.
I don't know why you'd want to add such a stipulation. If a caster is willing and able to cast another Magic Jar why not let him try and possess a target a second time? There's no double jeopardy clause for lobbing fireballs for instance.
What they don't want you doing is taking over the body of a 4 armed garilion and using 4 bastard swords or 2 greatswords.
This seems an odd thing to point out in the spell description considering how many other vagueries aren't addressed at all. How often does one encounter 3+ armed creatures and randomly magic jar into one after all?
- I can't think of any spell like abilities that stick around
Take your pick of any of an innumerable number of spell-like abilities with a duration such as a green hag's invisibility or a marid's gaseous form.
Is that stuff such a big deal? Just ask your DM or if you are the DM, think about what's balanced (remember that one burned a powerful spell which means in terms of balance that the caster improves himself)
Especially magic jar should always be worked out with the DM, I mean you are on the best way to become a lich, eh? This will mean power, you'll start to create your own magic tower dungeon or something like that, that's quite a big deal and a major influence on the campaign
you are on the best way to become a lich, eh? This will mean power, you'll start to create your own magic tower dungeon or something like that, that's quite a big deal and a major influence on the campaign
Uhm... What?
That's probably the intent, or i would make it 24 hours just to keep someone from recasting magic jar.
I don't know why you'd want to add such a stipulation. If a caster is willing and able to cast another Magic Jar why not let him try and possess a target a second time? There's no double jeopardy clause for lobbing fireballs for instance.
Probably because fireball isn't essentially one of the very few remaining save or die spells left in the entire game.
(Technically, someone could restrain you from just coup de gracing yourself the next round if you wanted, even though they likely have no clue you've possessed the victim -- but when you factor in the extra utility of having a possessed suicide slave to burn if you want, I think on the whole Magic Jar still clocks in at "Save or Die+".)
I don't know why you'd want to add such a stipulation. If a caster is willing and able to cast another Magic Jar why not let him try and possess a target a second time? There's no double jeopardy clause for lobbing fireballs for instance.
A fireball isn't worse than instant death. This spell, used properly, is horribly under rated. You can easily TPK a party with it.
This seems an odd thing to point out in the spell description considering how many other vagueries aren't addressed at all. How often does one encounter 3+ armed creatures and randomly magic jar into one after all?
The language was taken directly from the polymorph (where it was a huge concern)
Take your pick of any of an innumerable number of spell-like abilities with a duration such as a green hag's invisibility or a marid's gaseous form.
I think it means the ones they haven't cast or used yet. Spells are part of your soul, not of your body, so you can't take over a wizard and use his spells.
Been there done that. :P I have asked similar questions in the past. I received few answers.
MAGIC JAR QUESTIONS
ONGOING SPELLS AND MAGIC JAR
DISGUISE VIA MAGIC JAR
MAGIC JAR QUESTION
PERMANENT MAGIC JAR AT WHAT COST
HOW WOULD YOU BEST USE MAGIC JAR
Magic Jar appears useful but some of the wording, largely unchanged since 3.X, isn't always clear. Care to take a shot at it?
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless.In this case, I believe it should say: "your body appears lifeless". If your body were truly lifeless for the 9+ hours of the spell's duration then decomposition would become a very real concern.
Seems like a non-issue since there aren't really rules for decay. Even if a GM were to enforce such a thing, most people don't possess bodies for more than a few hours.
Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.Right. So one can't target non-sentient undead with this spell, though sentient undead are all fair game. So what about incorporeal undead? Is there a distinction between an incorporeal undead's soul and its physical form? Can one possess an incorporeal undead's form/body?
The target line says "one creature." Period. Doesn't matter what kind of creature it is. Undead, construct, dragon, fey, aberration. Whatever. Every creature in the game has a life force or animating force that can be forced into the magic jar. The text you quoted clarifies that non-sentient undead, don't have souls which, technically, doesn't exclude them as valid targets. That's not likely the intent though (otherwise, necromancers would be pretty much invisible by regularly possessing members of their undead army).
Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.I would assume that this sentence should incorporate the addendum "...within the duration of this spell." It's an important distinction if a target is forevermore immune to your attempts to possess it once it succeeds on a single saving throw.
Obviously, the intent was that the immunity only applied per casting.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.Is the soul aware of anything, such as the passage of time, while it is imprisoned?
It's probably safe to assume it can sense the same things you could, which is to say, surrounding life forces. It's ability to differentiate between said life forces would be limited, however.
The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.What exactly are "natural" and "automatic" abilities? Can someone offer up examples?
EXAMPLE: A troll's regeneration is an automatic ability, as is it's low-light vision and scent.
A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.I'm puzzled by what is being implied here. Is this intended to set a limit on wielding melee weapons? Does the caster gain a monstrous body's regular...
Essentially, it's just clarifying that you use the normal rules. If you possess a creature with several natural attacks, you can use it's normal attack routine (using your base attack bonus and the creature's physical ability scores).
If you possess a creature with more than two arms, you could wield more weapons, but generally you can still only wield two at a time in any given round (by duel-wielding). I honestly believe you COULD make more attacks, provided you had the multi-weapon fighting feat (since that would be "normal").
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If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.
Is the soul aware of anything, such as the passage of time, while it is imprisoned?
From playing a Fiend of Possession in 3.5 The three Fiend prestige classes (Fiend of Possession, Fiend of Blasphemy, Fiend of Corruption) can be found in the Fiend Folio). They left it open for you to decide when you possessed someone... you could have them observed everything your doing and unable to act (similar to the Sci Fi show Stargate villians called the goa'uld), kinda of a cruel torture. Or simple have them black out and remember nothing that you did.
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Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.Right. So one can't target non-sentient undead with this spell, though sentient undead are all fair game. So what about incorporeal undead? Is there a distinction between an incorporeal undead's soul and its physical form? Can one possess an incorporeal undead's form/body?
An incorporeal creature has no physical body (core rules, p. 567).
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.Is the soul aware of anything, such as the passage of time, while it is imprisoned?
While you (the caster) are in the magic jar, you are certainly aware of the passage of time and the spell grants you a particular life-sense in order to attack. Otherwise, you have as much sensory ability as any other rock. It seems simplest to say that a victim's soul is aware of time passing, but doesn't get any other senses.
Spells are part of your soul, not of your body, so you can't take over a wizard and use his spells.
By that logic though, a "magic jarred" caster could still cast spells - provided those have no somatic or verbal component, and require no line of effect to a target. There are not many of spells like that, but one does spring to mind... Magic Jar!
Spells are part of your soul, not of your body, so you can't take over a wizard and use his spells.By that logic though, a "magic jarred" caster could still cast spells - provided those have no somatic or verbal component, and require no line of effect to a target. There are not many of spells like that, but one does spring to mind... Magic Jar!
Probably not a coincidence.
Been there done that. :P I have asked similar questions in the past. I received few answers.
Yeah, I've already searched and read your other threads. But, like you pointed out, you received few definitive answers. I'm just stirring the pot and hopping to illicit a few more. Perhaps a developer will even deign to drop by and offer some semi-official insight if we keep asking.
Seems like a non-issue since there aren't really rules for decay.
Well, sure, there aren't rules to cover decay; even though there are spells to prevent it oddly enough. That doesn't mean that it isn't a phenomena with detrimental effects that players don't need to consider. I'm not saying that it should be the case with this spell however; that'd be disturbing and silly. Imagine returning to your body after five hours away only to have to contend with rigor mortis and a pending maggot infestation.
The text you quoted clarifies that non-sentient undead, don't have souls which, technically, doesn't exclude them as valid targets.
I can't imagine why they would have been singled out in the spell's description if it wasn't to indicate their exclusion as targets.
It's probably safe to assume it can sense the same things you could, which is to say, surrounding life forces. It's ability to differentiate between said life forces would be limited, however.
Unless the imprisoned soul is familiar with the spell itself, I wouldn't imagine that it could even fathom what those other life forces are. "So, I'm in some kind of void where I can't see, hear, feel, taste or smell anything but I'm aware of a handful of indescribable 'somethings' in my vicinity. Right..." There's also the possibility that sensing life forces is something only the caster of the spell is privy to.
so you can't take over a wizard and use his spells.
Not cast his spells or spell-like abilities, but what about benefiting from those that are already active when you first arrive? That is to say, do spells remain with the body of the original target upon which they are cast, or do they follow the soul of the target from body to body (or into the magic jar itself as the case may be).
Bump?