This is a good example of a campaign that supports a rouge, like how boom casting is weak unless you have encounters with multiple weaker enemies.Wow this is a fairly interesting thread. I've never considered the Rogue to be lacking. As a matter of fact at our table it is the rogue that is often dealing out the most pain.
I find that 75% of the time he is either going first, using stealth, flanking and/or feinting all of which allow him to use his sneak attack and when he is isn't doing any of those he is charging (via the scout option).
In addition without him I think the party would have died 9x over due to traps not to mention good recon.
Oooooooorrrr, this is how a rogue supports a campaign. These conditions exist in most campaigns regardless of the existence of a rogue in the party. The rogue is just adept at handling them without relying on spell slots, or other known, daily limited resources.
Oooooooorrrr, this is how a rogue supports a campaign. These conditions exist in most campaigns regardless of the existence of a rogue in the party. The rogue is just adept at handling them without relying on spell slots, or other known, daily limited resources.This is a good example of a campaign that supports a rouge, like how boom casting is weak unless you have encounters with multiple weaker enemies.Wow this is a fairly interesting thread. I've never considered the Rogue to be lacking. As a matter of fact at our table it is the rogue that is often dealing out the most pain.
I find that 75% of the time he is either going first, using stealth, flanking and/or feinting all of which allow him to use his sneak attack and when he is isn't doing any of those he is charging (via the scout option).
In addition without him I think the party would have died 9x over due to traps not to mention good recon.
I played with a DM who did not use traps at all and recon was a death sentence.
I played with a DM who did not use traps at all and recon was a death sentence.
As a DM i find its pretty easy to accidentally kill a reconning rogue. I have a dungeon planned in advance, i know whats going on, where things are and why they're doing what.
Despite some allegedly secret techniques for reconning "right" you're still limited by
1) the stealthing rules, which can make stealth impossible in a large number of situations.
2) a plethora of creatures with stealth negating abilities (blindsight, sense, tremorsense, scent)
3) It doesn't matter how good you are, its still a stealth vs perception roll. The way statistics work you will fail eventually even with a high degree of success on any particular venture.
In general...there's nothing they can do that someone else can't do better.
Trap Finding? there are spells for that.
Damage dealing? Fighters do more and more often.
Sneaking? A level 2 spell gives you +20 to Stealth.
Skill monkeys? Rangers, Bards, Alchemists, etc.
Something I'm toying with to help out in combat is giving them full BAB while flanking, and them doing a flat amount of extra damage based on level. Or even just full BAB while flanking.
the point of rogue is the spell caster doesn't need to waste his spell on finding a trap, or on sneaking the rogue can just do it, in combat he shouldn't be dealing the most damage, he supports the fighter, not outclass him, skill monkey(I personally feel the alchemist is a BAMF when it comes to being a skill monkey) but the rogue has access to tricks that let him do special things with skills, the rogue is in the class that its not the best at something but its moderate to good at a lot of things.
The problem is that the caster will prep the trap finding spell just to upstage the rogue, or that the rogue will have points in a lot of skills but wont be a master of any (that I feel is a big downside.)
I can see the argument as to why the rogue is weak, but at the same time I feel that its strength relies more on your own groups playing styles.
Wand. Their damage sucks because of inconsistent SA and 3/4 BAB. Traps are pretty rare well at least the ones that matter. In order to be an effective skill monkey you often need CHA which means 4-way ATR spread. INT, DEX, CON, CHA. You're right when you say that if they had to repeatedly have to disable traps, everything was SA vulnerable, and they never got attacked that they would be a good class.
The main problem I have with the rogue is that ultimately, it's not really contributing much.
Depends on the party, the DM, and how they are played.
Being able to easily deal with traps is huge if the DM doesn't think that traps are a rare kind of wandering monster.
Being able to scout is huge, but is both party and player dependent there.
Now I agree with you that the rogue talents need work, there are many that are insanely useless. They should be on the level of decent feats, while many are on the level of fluff traits.
I would include hide in plain sight as an advanced talent.
I can agree with you that their poor saves are tough, and it would be nice for them to have a 2nd favored save.
-James
I see what you are saying about traps, although there tend to be other ways to deal with traps then trapfinding/disable device, the rogue method is certainly the simplist.
As for scouting, really I find rogues are passable as scouts, but fall significantly behind multiple other classes at it. Druids and Bards probably lead the pack.
I see what you are saying though, there are certain niches which a rogue can fill adequately if needed. They seem to fill less niches less ably then other classes overall though.
The main problem I have with the rogue is that ultimately, it's not really contributing much.
Depends on the party, the DM, and how they are played.
Being able to easily deal with traps is huge if the DM doesn't think that traps are a rare kind of wandering monster.
Being able to scout is huge, but is both party and player dependent there.
Now I agree with you that the rogue talents need work, there are many that are insanely useless. They should be on the level of decent feats, while many are on the level of fluff traits.
I would include hide in plain sight as an advanced talent.
I can agree with you that their poor saves are tough, and it would be nice for them to have a 2nd favored save.
-James
I see what you are saying about traps, although there tend to be other ways to deal with traps then trapfinding/disable device, the rogue method is certainly the simplist.
As for scouting, really I find rogues are passable as scouts, but fall significantly behind multiple other classes at it. Druids and Bards probably lead the pack.
I see what you are saying though, there are certain niches which a rogue can fill adequately if needed. They seem to fill less niches less ably then other classes overall though.
I see what your saying about skill checks. But I think that when we compare "skilled" characters using extraordinary abilities to other characters with supernatural per diem powers, we forget that a druid only has so many wild shapes or spells to be a scout, and the party may need them for other challenges where the rogue doesn't fit. The rogue may not be as impressive on paper as another class's spell list but rogues handle their challenges appropriately, sometimes using magic/alchemical/mundane resources to make them equivalent to druid or bard gimmicks.
I think if you look at certain Archetypes (Thug) and options like Feats in APG and UC, they can be very strong.ç
For all the griping about Ninja vs. Rogue, I think UC definitely helps improve Rogues.
Inflicting status conditions is pretty compelling, and there`s different ways to ensure Sneak Attack on almost every attack.
Brilliant Energy is absolutely great for them at high levels, bypassing more AC than the Enhancement equivalent in most cases.
It`s just that `vanilla` wise, they have trouble finding `MVP` class status in most roles.
If the rest of the party lacks certain skills, Rogues can make up for that. Sure, making up for it with other Classes may be more flexible/optimal, but the Rogue CAN play a useful role. I think rules-analaysis approaches are going to emphasize `optimization` excessively, which many players don`t deal with as much.
Maybe make sneak attack into two different abilities: backstab and crossfire.
Backstab functions just like the normal sneak attack,melee only. crossfire can be used after moving 10 feet or something :P
ranged only.
Scout Archetype already does this, except more powerfully: neither has any ranged/melee limitation (beyond normal range limit for sneak attack).
Basically, you will always get at least 1 Sneak Attack per round as long as you can move 10` if you are a Scout, and if your attacks can qualify for Sneak Attack otherwise, you can do a Full Attack w/ Sneak Attack.Thug/Scout is a VERY effective archetype combo if you are interested in combat output.
I see what your saying about skill checks. But I think that when we compare "skilled" characters using extraordinary abilities to other characters with supernatural per diem powers, we forget that a druid only has so many wild shapes or spells to be a scout, and the party may need them for other challenges where the rogue doesn't fit.
At level 6 a druid can wildshape twice per day, for a total of 12 hours. 18 with a druids vestment. That's longer than an adventurer should need it.
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So whats the best solution for a houserule fix?The Ninja. It does what a rogue is supposed to be doing.
That is the problem. The rogue has been suboptimal for a long time. Ninja are better than rogues right out of the box. Bards may have surpassed them with the Dervish archetype in UC. IME, Alchemists are better than rogues. The problem is that APG, UM and UC are beefing up all the classes, but the power level is creeping up and the balance between classes is eroding. Every one of the Oriental options in UC is overpowered compared to the "Western" equivalent.
That is the problem. The rogue has been suboptimal for a long time. Ninja are better than rogues right out of the box. Bards may have surpassed them with the Dervish archetype in UC. IME, Alchemists are better than rogues. The problem is that APG, UM and UC are beefing up all the classes, but the power level is creeping up and the balance between classes is eroding. Every one of the Oriental options in UC is overpowered compared to the "Western" equivalent.So whats the best solution for a houserule fix?The Ninja. It does what a rogue is supposed to be doing.
Samurai doesn't seem stronger than Cavalier.
They can take same Orders after all.
That is the problem. The rogue has been suboptimal for a long time. Ninja are better than rogues right out of the box. Bards may have surpassed them with the Dervish archetype in UC. IME, Alchemists are better than rogues. The problem is that APG, UM and UC are beefing up all the classes, but the power level is creeping up and the balance between classes is eroding. Every one of the Oriental options in UC is overpowered compared to the "Western" equivalent.So whats the best solution for a houserule fix?The Ninja. It does what a rogue is supposed to be doing.
We do seem to be experiencing some power creep- this is what made 3x so goofy, IMHO. Some people loved all the splat, but it really did mess up some campaigns. As a player and a GM, I like powerful characters, but there were just too many gamebreakers creeping in with some options.
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Don't forget that no class is meant to go adventuring alone. Perhaps the wizard can be considerate of the Rogue in the party and take the Illusion speciality school for the Blinding Ray. Personally I think that this makes Illusion the best school to specialise in.
In terms of Sneak Attack often there are good options which permit this frequently:
Blinding Ray (as mentioned above) cast by the Wizard, and even easier to hit the second time, and gives the Rogue a ranged Sneak Attack.
Acrobatics to move through an enemies square to gain Flanking.
Overrun to move to the other side of the combat. However, the Meat Shield can so that instead (and this will probably aid their Cleave attacks - Remember that the Rogue is not alone, and the party are all meant to be helping each other.
Summon Monster to gain Flanking.
Greater Invisibility cast on the Rogue.
Feats like Gang Up.
Use Bluff to Feint, and with Greater Feint the foe loses their Dex bonus for an entire round, to everyone's benefit.
Concealment - When the Rogue is in Concealment but the enemy is not he can Sneak Attack. It seems some people misinterpret that line under Sneak Attack. A well placed Fog or Mist can give the (almost) whole party concealment without the enemy also gaining its benefit.
And in terms of character build and damage dealt each level, why not make Str the primary ability score? Take a two-handed weapon, or Two Weapon Fighting. Take a double weapon like a Quarterstaff. Gain more on your attack roll and damage, thus increasing the likelyhood that you will land that Sneak Attack. Careful use of Skill Ranks will make up for the less ability bonus to Dex based skills. When it comes to a really tricky trap, or a rogue skill that MUST succeed, a casting of Cat's Grace should happen.
I know that taking Str over Dex effectively drops your AC, you should have the Wizard cast Mage Armour - worthy of a Wand for the whole party (well, for those for whom it would stack, perhaps worthwhile for everyone in the party who doesn't have Medium Armour Proficiency or doesn't want the ACP). Again, remember that the Rogue is not alone, and having the Wizard prep a spell just for the Rogue is as likely to save the Wizard's life as any other spell, and it is probably more useful on the Rogue, again in terms of saving the Wizard's life. You've gotta have everyone thinking like a team player, not like a bunch of individuals.
I realise that it seems this a lot (but not all) of this depends on having a Spellcaster around, or a Meat Shield, but the Rogue is not adventuring alone. Aren't adventuring parties made from a group of friends who like to work together for fun (as players) and profit (as characters)? Why not create the characters to compliment each other? In my group the spellcasters get together to talk what spells they plan to take so that they don't create redundant overlaps, and others in the party also chime in with their advice/requests, just as, when in combat, the Wizard will call for help when engaged in melee, or the fighter will call for healing etc.
I'm currently playing a Half-orc Rogue 3 with 23 hp, AC 17, a MW Falchion, Skill Focus (Bluff), Rogue Talent (Combat Trick: Combat Expertise), Improved Feint, created at level 3, with Str 17 (with racial bonus), Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 16 (25 point buy - if the buy point wasn't so high I would have dropped Cha. There are only 3 PCs, so I have taken on Face of the Party as well - which is a skill set that only the Rogue and Bard have as class skills). At 4th he will take another point of Str. He attacks with his falchion at +6 for 2d4+4, which will improve significantly at level 4. His Bluff (for Feint) is +13, with the DC equal to [10 +BAB +Wis Modifier] of the enemy (though not so good against non-humanoids), so he gains the +2d6 Sneak Attack almost every round of melee (8-24 points of damage). With his MW Compound Shortbow he attacks at +6 for 1d6+3, which is not huge, nor is it too shabby. Admittedly I'd like his Stealth (+9) to be higher, but you can't have everything. He could perhaps Bluff his way out a sticky situation when caught sneaking about (poorly).
I'm also playing an Illusionist, and I chose that school to aid the Rogue in the party. Blinding Ray now feels like a ranged touch attack that does about 3d6 damage 8 times per day.
Whoops, sorry. I didn't realise I'd written that much. Kudos to everyone who can be bothered to read all that.
Whoops, sorry. I didn't realise I'd written that much. Kudos to everyone who can be bothered to read all that.
I read most of it, massive wall o' text. It basically amounts to "team work makes everything better". I typically agree, but there are some groups that are more like 4 individual warlords than a party, and some classes suffer more than others.
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Whoops, sorry. I didn't realise I'd written that much. Kudos to everyone who can be bothered to read all that.
Hey no problem buddy. "More is more" more often than most will admit. ;)
It's nice having something detailed to read that's worth something.
And in terms of character build and damage dealt each level, why not make Str the primary ability score? Take a two-handed weapon, or Two Weapon Fighting. Take a double weapon like a Quarterstaff. Gain more on your attack roll and damage, thus increasing the likelyhood that you will land that Sneak Attack. Careful use of Skill Ranks will make up for the less ability bonus to Dex based skills. When it comes to a really tricky trap, or a rogue skill that MUST succeed, a casting of Cat's Grace should happen.
This, so much this. People always forget that rogues have options other than strait Dexterity. Strength-based rogues can be nasty, and wielding a longspear can get you flanking much, much more easily; while a double-weapon and a high strength can land you an excellent start on the TWF tree (though TWF has an inordinately high Dex requirement), since at no point does the weapon cease being a 2 handed weapon (so you get +50% strength, then -50% on your off hand attack with it until you take double slice).
Meanwhile, this saves you a feat (Finesse) and makes your attacks more dangerous even when you're not flanking (1d8+6 piercing with a x3 critical, reach, and brace is A-OK in my book).
I know that taking Str over Dex effectively drops your AC, you should have the Wizard cast Mage Armour - worthy of a Wand for the whole party (well, for those for whom it would stack, perhaps worthwhile for everyone in the party who doesn't have Medium Armour Proficiency or doesn't want the ACP). Again, remember that the Rogue is not alone, and having the Wizard prep a spell just for the Rogue is as likely to save the Wizard's life as any other spell, and it is probably more useful on the Rogue, again in terms of saving the Wizard's life. You've gotta have everyone thinking like a team player, not like a bunch of individuals.
Investing in magic items that your teammates can use on you is indeed good thinking. A lot of smart parties will pool their cash and grab a wand of cure light wounds or similar for the cleric to use to heal them between fights, after his channel energies have ran out. Likewise, having someone cast blur on you grants you concealment for a while, which allows you to use Stealth checks even out in the open (this gets around most of the trouble using Stealth in a dungeon with empty hallways).
Concealment - When the Rogue is in Concealment but the enemy is not he can Sneak Attack. It seems some people misinterpret that line under Sneak Attack. A well placed Fog or Mist can give the (almost) whole party concealment without the enemy also gaining its benefit.
This part is sadly incorrect. Virtually all the fog/cloud spells give 20% concealment to anyone within 5ft of the guy in the cloud, and 50% against anyone more than 10ft. Thus if you cast Obscuring Mist and you are in the mist enough to benefit from it, other people have concealment from you, and you them. That's why I recommend blur as it's 1-way concealment.
This part is sadly incorrect. Virtually all the fog/cloud spells give 20% concealment to anyone within 5ft of the guy in the cloud, and 50% against anyone more than 10ft. Thus if you cast Obscuring Mist and you are in the mist enough to benefit from it, other people have concealment from you, and you them. That's why I recommend blur as it's 1-way concealment. as any other spell, and it is probably more useful...
Ahh, I was only thinking about it one-way: if I am inside it and he is outside...
Thanks for the correction.I like your idea on the longspear too. I suppose it will raise the question: So why not just take fighter?
Versatility.
...and if the Rogue isn't being versatile and useful it is probably the player's fault, or perhaps the rest of the part.
Spells? Spells "did the rogue in," because some of them replicate rogue abilities?
I'm pretty sure every class is "done in" then, since there are spells and items around that can pretty much duplicate any class ability or race feature.
Well if you take the Stealth rules as written (and this has been hotly contested but due to the rules of the english language it works), Rogues with a high Stealth score who have concealment can effectively function as if they had hide in plain sight. Combined with "fast Stealth" this makes rogues especially good at "strike-vanishing".
You can basically play a rogue very much like a Fighter, and being a non-caster they benefit greatly from multiclassing. A rogue 15 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 2 / Barbarian 1 has a +16/+11/+6/+1 attack routine, fast movement (which combos with fast Stealth), 15d8 HD + 4d10 HD + 1d12 HD, and the following saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +5, as well as +8d6 sneak attack and a lot of skill points.
Well if you take the Stealth rules as written (and this has been hotly contested but due to the rules of the english language it works), Rogues with a high Stealth score who have concealment can effectively function as if they had hide in plain sight. Combined with "fast Stealth" this makes rogues especially good at "strike-vanishing".
You can basically play a rogue very much like a Fighter, and being a non-caster they benefit greatly from multiclassing. A rogue 15 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 2 / Barbarian 1 has a +16/+11/+6/+1 attack routine, fast movement (which combos with fast Stealth), 15d8 HD + 4d10 HD + 1d12 HD, and the following saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +5, as well as +8d6 sneak attack and a lot of skill points.
I always wonder with multiclassing: is it better than the straight class?
Cons: Lower hit points, lower BAB, lower Fort save,Pros: Higher Reflex save, more Advanced Rogue Talents, more Sneak Attack damage, more skill points.
I think the straight rogue pathway is worth it for the Advanced Rogue Talents.
I didn't realise I liked Rogue this much...
Well if you take the Stealth rules as written (and this has been hotly contested but due to the rules of the english language it works), Rogues with a high Stealth score who have concealment can effectively function as if they had hide in plain sight. Combined with "fast Stealth" this makes rogues especially good at "strike-vanishing".
You can basically play a rogue very much like a Fighter, and being a non-caster they benefit greatly from multiclassing. A rogue 15 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 2 / Barbarian 1 has a +16/+11/+6/+1 attack routine, fast movement (which combos with fast Stealth), 15d8 HD + 4d10 HD + 1d12 HD, and the following saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +5, as well as +8d6 sneak attack and a lot of skill points.
I always wonder with multiclassing: is it better than the straight class?
Cons: Lower hit points, lower BAB, lower Fort save,
Pros: Higher Reflex save, more Advanced Rogue Talents, more Sneak Attack damage, more skill points.I think the straight rogue pathway is worth it for the Advanced Rogue Talents.
I didn't realise I liked Rogue this much...
It depends really. Truth be told you can go stupid-crazy with multiclassing and come out with a surprisingly elite character. Mind you, in most cases this will result in a jack of all trades type, and it's definitely not recommended for a spellcaster, but you can get some insanely good base statistics (which is kind of like a class feature in itself).
As a bit of a puzzle, my group and I decided to see what sort of multiclass abonination we could make. The goal was to have 4 attacks by 20th level (as close to perfect BAB as we could), as well as the highest saving throws we could have. Bonus points for them being mechanically viable as a character. The result was a surprisingly effective character who had dipped a bit of almost everything ('cept Rogue actually) who ended with a 16-17 BAB, and base saves equal to or exceeding their level (+20).
I actually like this sort of building, as from both a PC and GM perspective I appreciate versatility and stamina over glass-cannon build design. It doesn't matter how fast you can kill an opponent if you're not going to be able to take a beating either. Ultimately there are more badguys than you.
So, let me ask again. What are the simplest ways to power up a rogue?
Also, what are the easiest ways to power up Stealth, thus benefitting the Rogue?
If you want the old-school Thief style of rogue then go Halfling (+4 Stealth).
If you want to do damage either focus on ways to get Sneak Attack (Skill Focus Bluff and Improved Feint) or at least do not take a Small character.
This is a good example of a campaign that supports a rouge, like how boom casting is weak unless you have encounters with multiple weaker enemies.
Really seems to be the problem is most encounters and campaigns as a whole cater to a balanced party approach.
I have fond memories of running a dwarf rogue/fighter. Played it more like some thug. No picking pockets or tightrope walking, just a love for locks, traps, and raging in peoples face with an axe.
I'm starting to wonder if the rogue shouldn't just be made a more full fledged combat class. Full BAB, d10 HP. They're still limited in combat options, since they don't have the full range of weapon profs, only able to wear light armor and not proficient with shields.
I'd be tempted to scale back the usage of combat trick talent (specifically to reinforce a diffence fromthe fighter) and/ or sneak attack dice. This takes them out of the bard's and ranger's shadow and starts making them dangerous again.
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Last I checked the official word was you cannot take the Combat Trick talent more than once, just like all other rogue talents, making it woefully underwhelming.
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In my experience, the rogue is not SO bad to being unplayable. I found traps be quite deadly, if used correctly along with monsters.
Said this, IMHO the Rogues suffer of a very bad syndrome, sometimes suffered by the fighter, expecially in 3.5.
"This should be done by another class or by a prestige class".
So rogues cannot use flasks anymore - but alchemysts can use bombs. I said before UC a talent for Rogues able to make them use flask at least a limited number of uses/day could have been good. I wonder if they put in the book something similar.
The same, you cannot be the unavodiable infiltrator because there is a Master Spy. To be an Assassin, there is a PRC. The lord of shadows is the Shadowdancer.
Additionally, a lot of rogue talents could just have more uses per day or be more flexible.
Again, this is something suffered by the fighter too. A lot of people don't want to use Fighter Archetypes because they lose Armor Training. But the point is that if you want to create archetypes, you have to give away something. And if there are not so many class features, there is no choice.
The same, the Rogue to get iconic abilities like the poison use, have to lose other iconic ones like Trapfinding. This disappoints me, and when I see that the wizard is less and less limited at the level of opposition schools, I just scratch my head.
What's the direction of the design? Flexibility should be encouraged, or not? Or is good only for certain classes?
One way you can get a bit more utility out of sneak attack (as a GM anyway), is to use facing rules.
The facing rules actually limit the rogue's sneak attack more, Ivan.
Not really. You still get the sneak attack if the creature is flat-footed regardless of facing, and you can get it simply attacking the creature from behind instead of trying to set up a flank with someone (which with my old group could be like pulling teeth at times). To make it even more useful, just allow sneak attacks with flanking as long as someone else is on the other side.
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Problem is, to max out the Rogues combat effectiveness they need to be TWF to make the most of SA. This has two big problems:
1) On a 3/4 BAB class a -2 to hit is harsh.
2) TWF and SA is to Rogue what Flurry of Blows and increased movement speed is to monks. In other words, they work against each other. To SA most the time you need to be flanking, 90% of the game to do this you need to move each turn and therefore miss out on TWF. As a result you have few effective Feats as they are not being used and are only hitting once.
Our fix for the Rogue was a simple one:
Class Skill gained at lvl 2:
TWF Specialist - Your Agility in combat is second to none and a lifetime of training with Two Weapons has enabled you to flow smoothly with a blade in each hand. This ability allows you to attack with both weapons even after moving.
The ability means a Rogue is free to move around the battlefield whilst still getting an attack with each hand (something that should actuall be allowed anyway, the idea of only attacking once has always seemed stupid to us).
What the ability does NOT allow you to do is make use of ITF and GTWF - to attack more than once with your offhand you need to make a Full attack.
I'm also having a weird problem with rogues in our party. Our party rogue seems not to be contributing in combat as he should.
But I have to admit that is mainly because of character optimization.
Dunno how well an optimized rogue should work, should they be dmg dealers, stealthers, hagglers, trapfinders, merchants, thugs?
Should they have high str or dex? Max out int?
I mean they are good at certain situations but seriously undermined when it comes to combat! I havent see my party rogue shine in any way other than his obnoxious back story, which is fun. But other than that he is doing nothing. Maybe its just the player and his complete lack of interest for optimizing his character correctly (he did dumped charisma and has wisdom 16 and int of 11, dont ask me why?) :S
I'm also having a weird problem with rogues in our party. Our party rogue seems not to be contributing in combat as he should.
But I have to admit that is mainly because of character optimization.
Dunno how well an optimized rogue should work, should they be dmg dealers, stealthers, hagglers, trapfinders, merchants, thugs?
Should they have high str or dex? Max out int?
I mean they are good at certain situations but seriously undermined when it comes to combat! I havent see my party rogue shine in any way other than his obnoxious back story, which is fun. But other than that he is doing nothing. Maybe its just the player and his complete lack of interest for optimizing his character correctly (he did dumped charisma and has wisdom 16 and int of 11, dont ask me why?) :S
He should take the ki pool talent :D
Yeah, high wisdom is probably a good indicator that he is not as optimized as the rest of the party. IF this is a 20 point build, that is something that should have gone into strength or constitution if he is attempting to be a melee combatant, something to support being on the end of an ogre's axe.
This of course assuming that his highest ability is Dexterity and that he is dumping his attribute boosts into it. Does he have Weapon Finesse? If not, his attacks are going to be 2-3 points down from most melee combatants, especially with a 3/4 BAB. Flanking helps a little, but it doesn't really cover the BAB disparity at higher levels.
Weapom Finesse with a mexed Dex, Two Weapon Fighting feats, Bleeding attack, those are ways rogues compete with other damage dealers. A rogue in our party uses throwing daggers with TWF and Rapid shot to great effect. He also has major magic - vanish, and stealth from which he finds hiding places from which unleash his volleys. He does very competitive damage against most foes.
I'm also having a weird problem with rogues in our party. Our party rogue seems not to be contributing in combat as he should.
But I have to admit that is mainly because of character optimization.
Dunno how well an optimized rogue should work, should they be dmg dealers, stealthers, hagglers, trapfinders, merchants, thugs?
Should they have high str or dex? Max out int?
I mean they are good at certain situations but seriously undermined when it comes to combat! I havent see my party rogue shine in any way other than his obnoxious back story, which is fun. But other than that he is doing nothing. Maybe its just the player and his complete lack of interest for optimizing his character correctly (he did dumped charisma and has wisdom 16 and int of 11, dont ask me why?) :S
He should take the ki pool talent :D
Yeah, high wisdom is probably a good indicator that he is not as optimized as the rest of the party. IF this is a 20 point build, that is something that should have gone into strength or constitution if he is attempting to be a melee combatant, something to support being on the end of an ogre's axe.
This of course assuming that his highest ability is Dexterity and that he is dumping his attribute boosts into it. Does he have Weapon Finesse? If not, his attacks are going to be 2-3 points down from most melee combatants, especially with a 3/4 BAB. Flanking helps a little, but it doesn't really cover the BAB disparity at higher levels.
Weapom Finesse with a mexed Dex, Two Weapon Fighting feats, Bleeding attack, those are ways rogues compete with other damage dealers. A rogue in our party uses throwing daggers with TWF and Rapid shot to great effect. He also has major magic - vanish, and stealth from which he finds hiding places from which unleash his volleys. He does very competitive damage against most foes.
Ki pool talent sounds very well, no he doesnt have finesse, and he hits for +9/+4 with his Keen Rapier. For 1d6+3 and actually the monk had a huge argument with him because he woundt position himself ready for flanking with him. It was kinda dorky.
Yeah you are right with Finesse and/or some other feats he should be competitive or at least contributing to damage.
A rogue who won't flank? 16 wis and 11 int? He wouldn't last long in MY game, that's for sure.
Players who act like that are usually asked to leave at my table.
A rogue who won't flank? 16 wis and 11 int? He wouldn't last long in MY game, that's for sure.
Players who act like that are usually asked to leave at my table.
Wimp! Players like that are ground up and made INTO my table!
Nah, just kidding. My group is really casual about that sort of thing. Mind you, not quite THAT casual.
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Whoops, sorry. I didn't realise I'd written that much. Kudos to everyone who can be bothered to read all that.
I'm also playing an Illusionist, and I chose that school to aid the Rogue in the party. Blinding Ray now feels like a ranged touch attack that does about 3d6 damage 8 times per day.
You wrote so much, that I couldn't quote the last sentence.
It's nice that you are helping the rogue out, but how much are you gimping yourself in doing so. Do you have the Point Blank and Precise Shot feats for your Blinding Ray?
Personally, I have never played an illusion specialist because the class depends entirely on how your DM runs illusions. I play far more PFS and convention games than home games, so you never know whether Illusions will be disallowed by gm fiat.
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Honestly if it is a matter of making the Rogues at the table feel relevant design the campaign (or tweak it) so that things like stealth, traps, disguise, slight of hand, pick pocketing, scouting, and bluffing are all important. This will make the rogues feel like they are truly contributing. Allow hiding in the shadows and create dark places for your rogues to jump out of and deal horrendous amounts of damage. Let them roll of stealth so that they can sneak up behind their victims ( I mean enemies) and stab them in the kidney.
Create traps that maim, blind, deafen, etc. and see how fast the rest of your party comes to appreciate your rogues. Recently I started making my traps both Dc based and role playable. If the player comes close to disarming it but fails (by less than 3) I will describe the trap and allow him 10 seconds real time to MacGuyver his way out of it so that it only deals minimal damage.
Maybe you want to create a small side quest for your rogues that require their unique set of abilities. Something like steal an artifact from a low level wizard.
If your looking for rules I would allow weapon Finesse as a free feat (does not effect damage only to hit) with light weapons. I might also (and this could get crazy) allow SA damage to be multiplied on a critical of Natural 20.
Otherwise I think that Rogues are fine the way they are.
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So, let me ask again. What are the simplest ways to power up a rogue?
Also, what are the easiest ways to power up Stealth, thus benefitting the Rogue?
I've always thought the hard counters to stealth were a poor design. I think the rogue should get the following ability (based off 3.5 design, as I'm not that familiar yet with Pathfinder):
Stealth Training (Ex): Your specialized training allows you to fool even non-standard senses. You gain the following benefits as you gain levels.
Hide Scent (3rd) - By rubbing yourself with special oils and herbs, you can mask your scent. When you have prepared yourself in this fashion, creatures with the Scent ability must make a Spot check to detect your scent. Preparing to do this requires 1 minute of preparation, and the effects last for 30 minutes.
Still Movement (9th) - You have learned to move without disturbing the ground beneath you. When you choose to use this benefit, creatures with Tremorsense must make a Listen check (opposed by your Move Silently) to detect you. You take a -5 penalty to any Hide rolls while moving in this fashion.
Vanishing Moves (15th) - You have learned mystical secrets of movement and concealment that allow you to fool even those with Blindsense. While using this benefit, creatures with Blindsense must make Spot and Listen rolls to detect you. Because of the difficulty of the movements and techniques, all Hide and Move Silently rolls you make while using this benefit suffer a -8 penalty.
It's nice that you are helping the rogue out, but how much are you gimping yourself in doing so. Do you have the Point Blank and Precise Shot feats for your Blinding Ray?
No, I don't have those Feats. Inspire Courage and Cat's Grace do the job well enough, and it is only a ranged Touch attack after all. Even my +2 works about 40% of the time without any buffs. Though I am thinking about taking them. I have Augment Summoning taking my two feats so far.
As to 'Gimping myself'? No, I am enabling to the party to work at its greatest potential.
Does ‘Gimping’ apply to all non-damage spells that enable others to really wail upon the foe, or prevents the foe from acting, or debuffs the foe, or makes the foe an ally?
Granting a Sneak Attack to the Rogue by taking a standard action is probably going to save my life. I actually thought that the Illusionist school’s power of Blinding Ray was the most potent of all the specialist schools because it grants allies Sneak Attack, and it will remain potent to level 50.
Trying to evaluate a class’s usefulness outside the context of the party she is playing in is a complete waste of time. You need to know the other characters, the other players, the GM, and the campaign.
Personally, I have never played an illusion specialist because the class depends entirely on how your DM runs illusions. I play far more PFS and convention games than home games, so you never know whether Illusions will be disallowed by gm fiat.
It is the same thing here, playing an Illusionist can be dependent upon the GM. Perhaps the prevalence of PFS and Convention play has taken away from the idea of the party working together. My Illusionist 2/Bard 1 risked an AoO to move to our Fighter 3 to heal him. I was knocked into the negatives on the next round, but that Fighter went on to kill 2 enemies in the next 2 rounds. The Alchemist came over and shoved a potion of CLW down my throat and I was then able to Grease the weapon that was about to slice her to pieces. The Fighter and Alchemist together then killed this anarmed foe.
Teamwork. It is actually more fun this way.