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Cross-Blooded Sorcerer: Empyreal + Sage


Rules Questions

Andoran

This is more of an "I'm curious" than anything practical, but what happens if you cross-blood empyreal and sage?

The Cross-Blooded archetype says you get the bloodline arcana of both bloodlines. The Empyreal bloodline arcana turns the sorcerer into a wisdom-based character/caster, while the Sage bloodline arcana turns the sorcerer into an intelligence-based character/caster. Both have identical wording save that one says "Wisdom" and the other "Intelligence."

So either this means that the character can cast based on either one at a given point in time (yeah right!) or (more likely) they get to choose which one they adhere to when they take sorcerer in this way.

Opinions?


StabbittyDoom wrote:
So either this means that the character can cast based on either one at a given point in time (yeah right!)

Well, why not? It's not that they gain anything from it.

But you are probably right with the "choose once" ruling.

Andoran

Blave wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
So either this means that the character can cast based on either one at a given point in time (yeah right!)

Well, why not? It's not that they gain anything from it.

But you are probably right with the "choose once" ruling.

The "yeah right" was mostly because it seems like complete cheese. Though with that ruling a character who splits a little into the secondary one gains the ability to remain useful even when drained like crazy on the other stat. "Crap, they drained my wis to 7?! Good thing that headband boosted my int to 20! Meteor Swarm, Away!"


Clearly, you get to stack benefits! Bonus spells for both your Wisdom score and your Intelligence score! Save DCs getting modified by both Wis and Int! Woooo!!


do cross-blooded and wildblooded archetypes both modify your bloodline ability?
if so, they aren`t compatable, even for other wildblooded bloodlines.
(the outcome of not treating wildblood like bloodline `sub-domains`, rather as ability-modifying archetypes)


Quandary wrote:

do cross-blooded and wildblooded archetypes both modify your bloodline ability?

if so, they aren`t compatable, even for other wildblooded bloodlines.
(the outcome of not treating wildblood like bloodline `sub-domains`, rather as ability-modifying archetypes)

This would be my take on it (though, truth be told, I'm not sure why wildblooded is even an archetype).


Quandary wrote:

do cross-blooded and wildblooded archetypes both modify your bloodline ability?

if so, they aren`t compatable, even for other wildblooded bloodlines.
(the outcome of not treating wildblood like bloodline `sub-domains`, rather as ability-modifying archetypes)

Looking at the archetype table one can see that both the Crossblooded and Wildblooded Archetypes replace or change the Bloodline Arcana, making them ineligible for stacking as per the general archetype stacking rules:

Quote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

Silver Crusade

Caedwyr wrote:
Quandary wrote:

do cross-blooded and wildblooded archetypes both modify your bloodline ability?

if so, they aren`t compatable, even for other wildblooded bloodlines.
(the outcome of not treating wildblood like bloodline `sub-domains`, rather as ability-modifying archetypes)

Looking at the archetype table one can see that both the Crossblooded and Wildblooded Archetypes replace or change the Bloodline Arcana, making them ineligible for stacking as per the general archetype stacking rules:

Quote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

Here is the problem, It changes the Bloodline Arcana to Have...two...which meets the pre-req to have them changed to Wild-Blooded...because the Bloodline Arcana is still there... The way i see it, Cross-blooded is an archetype for the Class, Wild-blooded is an archetype for the Bloodline..


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Please let's not turn another thread to "can i crossblood with a wildblooded?", both sides have very good points and unless one of the Devs decides to chime in and give us a FAQ answer we are just going to go back and forth with the same arguements. Just like the quicken 1 round casting spells thread were.

Andoran

Well it sounds (at best) shady by RAW to cross-blood with a wildblood, but I'll allow it at my table. If someone gets the bright idea to do Empyreal + Sage, I'll just make them pick an attribute.


Here, I'll try again

Quote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

Both archetypes alter the Bloodline Arcana feature, using the example quoted above they may not stack.

To be fair though, a number of the Archetypes are written as though Paizo forgot that they had the "can't use two that alter the same thing" qualifier and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they intended things to stack that don't by the rules. As a GM I'd be very open into letting things stack so long as what is being altered is still functional after both modifications have been made, subject to GM review of course.


I'm with the you can camp.

Wildblooded changes the way a specific bloodline works not the way arcana works IMO. And yes i feel the same way about subdomains.


Caedwyr wrote:

Here, I'll try again

Quote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

Both archetypes alter the Bloodline Arcana feature, using the example quoted above they may not stack.

To be fair though, a number of the Archetypes are written as though Paizo forgot that they had the "can't use two that alter the same thing" qualifier and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they intended things to stack that don't by the rules. As a GM I'd be very open into letting things stack so long as what is being altered is still functional after both modifications have been made, subject to GM review of course.

Both bloodline archetypes alter separate bloodlines, not the same bloodline twice. It's not replacing the same exact kind of ability. Even as a crossblooded sorcerer with normal bloodlines, you still get to benefit from both bloodline arcana.

If you were trying to be a crossblooded Sorcerer with a normal bloodline and it's wildblooded archetype, I would see your point. Since you can obviously never do that anyway, I don't see the problem with wildblooded and crossblooded together.

I understand that Empyreal and Sage both replace the bloodline arcana, but since you benefit from two already existing bloodline arcana anyway, I fail to see how the rules regarding using multiple archetypes affects this.

Lastly, this is a dumb idea for a crossblooded Sorcerer, in theory or otherwise.


The standards for mixing archetypes deal with what class abilities are modified. Crossblooded alters many class abilities: Class Skill, Bonus Spells, Bonus Feat, Bloodline Arcana, Bloodline Powers, and Spellcasting. Wildblooded modifies Bloodline Arcana and Powers, which conflicts with Crossblooded.

Crossblooded: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
The ability to select bloodline powers, such that you DON`T need to take all abilities of a bloodline is definitely a novel introduction of Crossblooded (making a Crossblooded Sorceror more like an Oracle in terms of Class Ability customization), so I`d say Crossblooded definitely counts as modifying the Bloodline Power Ability... Which Wildblooded also does, thus the Archetypes are incompatable.


Quandary wrote:

The standards for mixing archetypes deal with what class abilities are modified. Crossblooded alters many class abilities: Class Skill, Bonus Spells, Bonus Feat, Bloodline Arcana, Bloodline Powers, and Spellcasting. Wildblooded modifies Bloodline Arcana and Powers, which conflicts with Crossblooded.

Crossblooded: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.
The ability to select bloodline powers, such that you DON`T need to take all abilities of a bloodline is definitely a novel introduction of Crossblooded (making a Crossblooded Sorceror more like an Oracle in terms of Class Ability customization), so I`d say Crossblooded definitely counts as modifying the Bloodline Power Ability... Which Wildblooded also does, thus the Archetypes are incompatable.

Unless that was just a typo, we were mainly referring to the bloodline arcana, not the bloodline powers. Either way, I'm sure your argument remains the same.

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