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Extra Evolution Feat


Rules Questions


9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

So given ExtraEvo's ambiguous wording
is there any concensus as to What are the minimum Levels a summoner qualifies to take the Extra Evo feat as soon as its possible?

5,10,15,20?

there's no feat at level 20? kind of a cliff hanger right?
i mean if they wanted to max out the number of times to take the feat
shouldn't they have used "at 1st level and 5 levels thereafter"?
1,6,11,16
Eidolons have so many options that if you choose to take a feat at level one thats just a sacrifice you're making but at least you have the ability to max out at 4 feats over your 20 level build later

that way you can utilize all your opportunity to take them


Sandbox wrote:

So given ExtraEvo's ambiguous wording

is there any concensus as to What are the minimum Levels a summoner qualifies to take the Extra Evo feat as soon as its possible?

5,10,15,20?

there's no feat at level 20? kind of a cliff hanger right?
i mean if they wanted to max out the number of times to take the feat
shouldn't they have used "at 4th level and 5 levels thereafter"?
4,9,14,19

that way you can utilize all your opportunity to take them

There was a thread a while back, and I think it was agreed that 1, 10, 15, and 20 were the levels. No feat at level 20, so basically you can take it at 1, 11, and 15.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

it just seems really disjointed and unlike paizo, just because of poor wording. can't this just be FAQ'd and Errata'd

usually if they want something to cap at 3 times shouldn't it be "at 3rd and every 6th level thereafter" ???
3,9,15, still caps at 3 but more smooth, aesthetic and makes more sense?

please hit the FAQ and fix the broken FEAT
1,6,11,16!!!
or 3,9,15


Pretty sure it follows the same logic as Improved Natural Armor ...

FAQ Entry


no offense but i'm pretty sure it doesn't

the FAQ you mentioned describes an EVOLUTION not a feat

the FAQ describes how many times an Evolution can be applied 5 times in the case of ImpNatArmor evo...

I'm talking about the frequency and intervals at which you select a feat that can be selected multiple times.

it really seems like an easy fix based on what was intended, select the feat 3 OR 4 times over 20 levels

the ImpNatArmor Evolution clarification sheds no light on this matter...but it was a needed FAQ itself -cheers


You're kidding, right?

Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon's hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.

------------

Extra Evolution

Your eidolon has more evolutions.

Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.

Benefit: Your eidolon's evolution pool increases by 1.

Special: You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess.


Extra Evolution

Your eidolon has more evolutions.

Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.

Benefit: Your eidolon's evolution pool increases by 1.

Special: You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess.

----------------------------------------------------------------

its the wording in the Feat, not the evolution that seems improper

every 5 summoner levels with a FEAT leaves us at the disjointed 1,10,15,20-->realisticaly in practice you get the ugly 1, 11, 15
maxing at 3 times


Perhaps, but I can't see 'once for every five levels...' applying differently on a situational basis.

That would cause more confusion than anything I can imagine.

Until some errata dictates otherwise, that's how I'm handling it.


Sandbox wrote:

Extra Evolution

Your eidolon has more evolutions.

Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.

Benefit: Your eidolon's evolution pool increases by 1.

Special: You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess.

----------------------------------------------------------------

its the wording in the Feat, not the evolution that seems improper

every 5 summoner levels with a FEAT leaves us at the disjointed 1,10,15,20-->realisticaly in practice you get the ugly 1, 11, 15
maxing at 3 times

Just...out of curiosity. If you're going to be super strict on the wording, you realize the way it's worded you could take it at 13, 15, 17 (because that's taking "once" PER every FIVE summon levels. You have 10 summoner levels by 13th, so you can take it twice, which puts you at 15th, so you can take it AGAIN at 17th...

Also, you'd actually be taking the feat at 5th, 11th, 15th the way you're describing it.


Noah Fentz wrote:

Perhaps, but I can't see 'once for every five levels...' applying differently on a situational basis.

That would cause more confusion than anything I can imagine.

Until some errata dictates otherwise, that's how I'm handling it.

Evolutions-are changed/applied when you level up and can be switched with spells/abilities etc.

so having rules that constrain when/how many times you can take the evolution work fine at any level of 1-20. Because you actually have the ability to set your evolutions and take that ImpNatArmor evo at 20th because you have gained your 20th level and satisfy the rules of that particular Evolution.

Conversely having the same wording in the rules constraining when/how many times that you may select a certain feat(multiple times when applicable) doesn't work the same.
--so say you've taken Extra evolution at 1,11,15,(or 5,11,15) and now you finally reached 20, the pinnacle of your career, you finally satisfy the requirement of 20 summoner levels to take Extra Evolution a final time, but then you realize that at 20th you have no feat to take it...
bummer...

it would be the same as creating a generic single Awesome! non-combat, non-wizardy feat Called "Invincibility":You cannot die,be hurt,age,disintigrate,be affected by any hostile spell...And folks it has a prerequisite of "(insert Class here) Level 20"

...bummer, no one could take it but a rogue (who can use his 20th level talent to select any feat he meets the requirements for)

no one else gets a feat at 20 (besides fighters Combatfeat/Wizard bonus)

so unless Summoners were errata'd to award them a bonus feat at 20 to choose any feat(metamagic,Eidolonstuff, OR EXTRA Evolution) they can't take Extra Evolution at 20


idwraith wrote:


Just...out of curiosity. If you're going to be super strict on the wording, you realize the way it's worded you could take it at 13, 15, 17 (because that's taking "once" PER every FIVE summon levels. You have 10 summoner levels by 13th, so you can take it twice, which puts you at 15th, so you can take it AGAIN at 17th...

Also, you'd actually be taking the feat at 5th, 11th, 15th the way you're describing it.

i realize that you could rapidly take them in all in a row at higher levels-i was just talking about minimum levels, the earliest you can acquire them

as to your second comment, i was working with the "Concensus" that has been discussed on previous threads that Omelite mentioned earlier in this thread

hit the FAQ !


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Joshua J. Frost, Fri, Mar 5, 2010, 06:27 AM

As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:

The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.

Hope this helps!

----

Same issue; equivalent wording on another feat; my group goes with RAI as RAW is ambiguous.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
lastblacknight wrote:

Joshua J. Frost, Fri, Mar 5, 2010, 06:27 AM

As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:

The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.

Hope this helps!

----

Same issue; equivalent wording on another feat; my group goes with RAI as RAW is ambiguous.

oh it helps alot thanks for the RAI with the wierd disjointed 1,10,15,20 thing

But...they dropped the Minimum 1 clause
and this still is only relevant to EVOLUTIONS...they can be applied at level 20

unlike feats

it still seems like just a cut/paste that is affected differently by when feats are available, so that you can't take the FEAT a 4th time until EPIC, and i don't think that was intended

clearly the evolution was intended to be taken 4 times by 20th level
shouldn't the ExtraEvo FEAT that sports the same wording be intended to be taken up to 4 times by 20th

FAQ it up people

Andoran

Sandbox wrote:

oh it helps alot thanks for the RAI with the wierd disjointed 1,10,15,20 thing

But...they dropped the Minimum 1 clause
and this still is only relevant to EVOLUTIONS...they can be applied at level 20

unlike feats

it still seems like just a cut/paste that is affected differently by when feats are available, so that you can't take the FEAT a 4th time until EPIC, and i don't think that was intended

clearly the evolution was intended to be taken 4 times by 20th level
shouldn't the ExtraEvo FEAT that sports the same wording be intended to be taken up to 4 times by 20th

FAQ it up people

You can take it again at 21st level if it makes you happy.


lastblacknight wrote:

Joshua J. Frost, Fri, Mar 5, 2010, 06:27 AM

As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:

The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.

Hope this helps!

----

Same issue; equivalent wording on another feat; my group goes with RAI as RAW is ambiguous.

That isn't true at all.

A summoner can select this evolution once for levels 1—4, again for levels 5–9, a third time at levels 10–14, a fourth time at levels 15–19, and a fifth time at level 20.

Same goes for the feat, as far as RAW goes.

So, you could conceivably take a feat of the same wording at levels 1 or 3, then again at 5, 7, or 9, then again at 11 or 13, then yet again at 15, 17 or 19.

Stressing OR here to ensure it's not interpreted as inclusive, and this doesn't even include bonus feats.

I don't see the issue here. Not at all.


ShadowcatX wrote:
You can take it again at 21st level if it makes you happy.

i know you can take it at 21, but i'm just wanting to know what is intended.

with paizo's aversion to PF Epic currently, i just don't see it being designed with epic in mind... given, all those feats are open ended and extend into epic, its the intent i'm looking for

capping at 4 uses of the feat by 20
or
capping at 3 uses of the feat by 20

both versions could go epic at 21
1,6,11,16 or 3,9,15


noah
to take Extra customization you need at least summoner 5
to take it a second time you need at least summoner 11
to take it a third time you need at least summoner 15
you can't take it a 4th time RAW as there is no feat at 20

if there originally was a Minimum Level 1 clause then it could be 1,11,15,20(never), but theres not so that point is moot
RAW you can't have it till 5


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Extra Evolution Feat
Improved Natural Armor Evolution FAQ
"...Special: You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess."
"The description of the evolution(Natural Armour) says, "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses." Unfortunately, that text is unclear. ... Update: Page 60: Change the the Improved Natural Armor evolution to read as follows: "Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon's hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.""

So with the update for INA as an example, I would say that Extra Evolution Feat would follow the same rules. So it can be taken once for levels 1—4, again for levels 5–9, a third time at levels 10–14, a fourth time at levels 15–19, and a fifth time at level 20. (Well at 21st if and when the 20+ levels rules come out)

TL;DR 1-4:Max 1, 5-9:Max twice, 10-14: Max thrice, 15-19: Max Four times.


David Thomassen wrote:

Extra Evolution Feat

Improved Natural Armor Evolution FAQ
"...Special: You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess."
"The description of the evolution(Natural Armour) says, "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses." Unfortunately, that text is unclear. ... Update: Page 60: Change the the Improved Natural Armor evolution to read as follows: "Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon's hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.""

So with the update for INA as an example, I would say that Extra Evolution Feat would follow the same rules. So it can be taken once for levels 1—4, again for levels 5–9, a third time at levels 10–14, a fourth time at levels 15–19, and a fifth time at level 20. (Well at 21st if and when the 20+ levels rules come out)

TL;DR 1-4:Max 1, 5-9:Max twice, 10-14: Max thrice, 15-19: Max Four times.

Hey hey now thats what i'm talking about so lets hit the FAQ button together and get an update on the Feat aswell

Andoran

I don't see where an FAQ is needed. It has the same restrictive wording as the evolution. The evolution's wording has been clarified as to how it works.

If A = B, and A = C, then B = C.


ShadowcatX wrote:

I don't see where an FAQ is needed. It has the same restrictive wording as the evolution. The evolution's wording has been clarified as to how it works.

If A = B, and A = C, then B = C.

Just click the button! my DM is nuts about RAW/RAI

Andoran

I'm not going to "just click the button" when the button doesn't need to be clicked. And I hope no one else is either. The FAQ button, IMO, should be used on things that aren't already clarified by the FAQ.


ShadowcatX wrote:
I'm not going to "just click the button" when the button doesn't need to be clicked. And I hope no one else is either. The FAQ button, IMO, should be used on things that aren't already clarified by the FAQ.

Blah blah blah-not helping

Qadira

I agree with ShadowcatX. The FAQ changed the wording for something that has the exact same language about something you can select for the exact same class. It is pretty obvious what is intended here and does not need an FAQ. Extra evolution works just like the FAQ for the Nat. Armor evolution selection.


Alright...Here's the confirmed wording on ImpNatArmor which has THE SAME LEVEL INCREMENTS AS THE FEAT. I know that you can only take 1 feat every odd level which means you can't take the feat at 20, but here's where it doesn't matter:

The description of the evolution says, "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses." Unfortunately, that text is unclear. A summoner can select this evolution once for levels 1—4, again for levels 5–9, a third time at levels 10–14, a fourth time at levels 15–19, and a fifth time at level 20. This wording will be clarified in the next update document and print run for the APG.

Now, whoever started this post, that means you can take the Extra Evolutions feat 4 times based on the level ranges that were included in this explanation of the Evolution, ImpNatArmor.

1st: lvl1 or lvl3
2nd: lvl5 or lvl7 or lvl9
3rd: lvl11 or lvl13
4th: lvl15 or lvl17 or lvl19.

4 times caps at 20. 4 extra evolution points. The devs have made their explanation and so you have your answer. If you don't like it the go make your own rules and stop asking about the dev rules. I know it was unclear, which is what you are stressing, but when they clarified the intent of ImpNatArmor evolution, they inadvertently also cleared up this feat's bad wording.

Sczarni

Given that the improved natural armour evolution is now errated, while Extra Evolution is not. the logic no longer applies


tlotig wrote:
Given that the improved natural armour evolution is now errated, while Extra Evolution is not. the logic no longer applies

Except the Advanced Player's Guide has been errated, Ultimate Magic hasn't yet.

Ultimate Magic Errata Thread

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Oni_NZ wrote:

Extra Evolution Feat

Ultimate Magic wrote:
You can gain Extra Evolution multiple times, but only once for every five summoner levels you possess.
The wording is a bit ambiguous, at what levels can it be taken?
It should be like the correction to the Improved Natural Armor feat: once at 1st, then again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.


If I were GM, I would let the Summoner or the Eidelon take the feat at 19, with the understanding that the bonus doesn't arrive til 20. If the player really needs the point for that dream combo at 20, they'll wait.

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