Two weapon fighting and just unarmed strikes?


Rules Questions


If we look at a non-monk who has improved unarmed strike,

can he two weapon fight using just his unarmed strikes? IE- an unarmed strike is his main hand attack and an unarmed strike is his off-hand attack.


Yes you can. -4 and -8 unless you have two weapon fighting in case it is -2 and -2


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, and in some respects is a "better" unarmed combatant than a monk.

For instance, a "martial artist" who concentrates on punching (i.e., a boxer):

Human Fighter (Two-Weapon Warrior)
14 Str, 16 Dex (+2 race), 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha; 15-Point Buy
1st- Double Slice, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd- Power Attack
3rd- Weapon Focus (Brass Knuckles, Cestus, Gauntlet, Spiked Gauntlet, or Unarmed Strike)
4th- +1 Dex; Weapon Specialization
5th- Step Up
6th- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th- Following Step
8th- +1 Wis; Stunning Fist
9th- Greater Weapon Focus
10th- Step Up and Strike
11th- Two-Weapon Rend
12th- +1 Str; Dazing Assault
13th- Strike Back
14th- Greater Weapon Specialization
15th- Penetrating Strike
...

Alternately, switch Int and Wis, take +1 Int and Combat Expertise at 4th level (+1 Dex and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 8th), and take more defensive (i.e., Dodge chain) and combat maneuver feats. Even the "mystical martial artist" (normally covered by a monk) can be simulated (depending on the concept) by an alchemist, bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, oracle, paladin, summoner (synthesist especially), and (as a bit of a stretch) magus, sorcerer, witch, and wizard.

Actually, an unarmed strike magus could be an interesting alternative to a qinggong monk (since an unarmed strike usually counts as "wielding a light... melee weapon" with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat)...


Dragonchess Player wrote:


Actually, an unarmed strike magus could be an interesting alternative to a qinggong monk (since an unarmed strike usually counts as "wielding a light... melee weapon" with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat)...

The Improved Unarmed Strike feat does not let your fists count as a manufactured weapon like a monk's unarmed strike. You would still need a level of monk in order to use Spell Combat with empty hands.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Grick wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:


Actually, an unarmed strike magus could be an interesting alternative to a qinggong monk (since an unarmed strike usually counts as "wielding a light... melee weapon" with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat)...
The Improved Unarmed Strike feat does not let your fists count as a manufactured weapon like a monk's unarmed strike. You would still need a level of monk in order to use Spell Combat with empty hands.

No, you don't. "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Neither Spell Combat nor Spellstrike "enhance or improve" weapons, they simply allow spells to be cast simultaneously with melee attacks and deliver a touch range spell using a "free" normal melee attack (instead of a free touch attack).


What about the arcane pool enhancement?

It specifies a weapon you are holding. Does that count your hands?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matt Stich wrote:

What about the arcane pool enhancement?

It specifies a weapon you are holding. Does that count your hands?

That would be up to the GM, but I don't see it as being overpowered. Per the description and the way similar abilities work with double weapons, the magus would only be able to enhance "one [hand]... at one time."

Remember, the focus of a magus is fighting with one hand and spellcasting with the other, not fighting with both hands.

Lantern Lodge

I would say yes personally, but a gm pointed something out to me.

Page 202 of the Core Rulebook: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."

Rules as written they used the word "wield" in there which would be something in your hand.

However, on page 182 of the Core rulebook they talk about unarmed attacks: "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:" and they go on to talk about provoking attacks of opportunity and that's it.

Now, me personally, I would think that rules as intended you should be able to use unarmed attacks with two-weapon fighting, but as written you are not wielding a weapon even if your unarmed attacks are considered "armed" via a feat etc.

This question came up because I want to make a Duelist with Crane Style and two-weapon fighting. My idea is to have a rapier main hand and leave the off hand empty for use with Crane Style and Duelist abilities, but on my turn I take a full attack action to attack with my rapier and save my two-weapon fighting attack with my empty hand to parry.


Well if you take a look here:

Two Weapon Defense

PFSRD wrote:

Two-Weapon Defense (Combat)

You are skilled at defending yourself while dual-wielding.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC.

When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.

It would seem by RAW they intended two weapon fighting to work with unarmed strikes, and even natural weapons, although obviously with natural weapons that would mean giving up full BAB on all attacks for no benefit I can imagine.


Cool.


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This thread has been dead since late 2012 because the issue was settled in early 2013.

FAQ wrote:

Unarmed Strike: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make two unarmed strikes in one round?

Yes.

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