Hey now, no reason to get too heated here, choose words carefully, the internet can be a mean place.
I think it's really a problem of what constitutes pointless. SKR mentions that having frequent tangible rewards is popular with players, so if they get a little bit more power in the form of both gear and skill frequently in smaller chunks players will be happy.
While intangibles like contacts, clues to beat the boss etc and entrance into a prestigious group can be great rewards for players, there are times when some intangibles are so abstract that it's hard for players to even comprehend how it can be considered a reward.
Using the Courtyard Zombie example, clearing out the area probably won't have any direct benefits for the player outside of potentially safe access to other areas of the dungeons. While this is great, many players (myself included) don't view this as a reward in the same way that sweet loot, new contacts, or levels have. This is doubly true if that room "resets" the challenge, which is very much the case with things like haunts.
Furthermore, reward-less encounters serve a purpose of challenging the party, and preventing strait-line rushing of the BBEG.
Whether you fight the zombies in ruins, a graveyard, or a courtyard, it still is a non-random encounter with no treasure and no social rewards. So what exactly your point again?I guess there aren't any necromancers who want a horde of zombies outside to deter invaders. Or undead necromancers that don't care if the zombies "drop gore" everywhere.
I'm sure there would be. Just none that would have a courtyard. Necromancers who don't care if zombies drop gore everywhere would, I think, live in ruins or abandoned graveyards.
When I think of undead with courtyards, I think of Dracula, whose residence is very classy, not covered in rotten corpse pieces.
deinol, I'm trying to figure out why a pointless encounter is even there. It sounds like bad adventure design. And if it is bad adventure design, then -that's- the problem. A bunch of mindless zombies are between the PCs and their goal. Why? It's not random. So, why are they there? Because the GM felt like putting them there. What purpose do they serve? None. So, it's random? No, the GM put them there on purpose. What purpose? None. So, it's random?
That's how this discussion has run. Some bunch of creatures have been pointlessly put between the PCs and their goal for no reason except to provide an example of a bunch of creatures being pointlessly put between the PCs and their goal. And, somehow, this was done to make some sort of point. The only point I see is that the GM needs to learn encounter design.
I do not see random encounters as pointless. IMO, they add a layer of depth to the game in that their are a lot of different monsters out their. Not every encounter is tied to the current adventure. Furthermore, I have found it interesting to use past random encounters as fodder for a new adventure. For example, I roll up a random encounter with some knolls. Fast forward, next adventure I look back and think, "What if they were a scouting party, or if they were on some sort of advanced mission?" It also can throw a monkey wrench into the game, by challenging the players with something unexpected. They've been fighting off the undead for the last few sessions and here comes this roving band of orcs that their spells are not designed to deal with.
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Yes, yes, OR the zombies have a group of survivors cornered and you have to rescue them, OR they, along with some traps, are guarding teh lootz, etc.
But
Can we stop this threadjack, now? Are there maybe any other neat ideas/rules the devs have? Because I was really enjoying THAT bit.
Yes, yes, OR the zombies have a group of survivors cornered and you have to rescue them, OR they, along with some traps, are guarding teh lootz, etc.
But
Can we stop this threadjack, now? Are there maybe any other neat ideas/rules the devs have? Because I was really enjoying THAT bit.
+1, though I wouldnt mind if people drop in one or two of their own houserules
Not true, precisely because they are mindless. Wandering off in search of brains instead of doing what they're told requires decision making capability. Zombies controlled by a necromancer--via command undead, animate dead, or so on--must obey a single simple order. Further, they specifically won't wander off (unless you tell them too, natch). That's what uncontrolled undead do.
A controlled zombie told to guard an area is absolutely prevented from wandering off. It will never go to sleep, never get bored, never take a break for lunch, never get tired, and never betray you of their own accord. They aren't perfect guards because they also won't investigate anything suspicious outside their guarded area and can't reach logical conclusions about stimuli that living guards could, but they're way better than paying random chumps in many regards, especially if they're around in significant numbers such that sneaking past all of them gets difficult.
Honestly, people want to stick to the main topic of this thread. Why can't you respect their wishes?
And, by the way, you're wrong. A zombie no more needs a mind in order to chase down brains then my dishwasher needs brains to wash dishes or a nail needs brains to chase after a magnet or a combustion engine needs brains to turn chemical fuel into physical power.
Zombies have no need or desire for brains in PF, you are thinking cheesy old horror movies.
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Honestly, people want to stick to the main topic of this thread. Why can't you respect their wishes?
And, by the way, you're wrong.
People are mean on the internet.
More on-topic: Do any of the Paizo staff dabble in the 3PP stuff? With so much out there I was wondering if folks might have picked up stuff like Psionics or even some off the alternate races published.
I guess there aren't any necromancers who want a horde of zombies outside to deter invaders. Or undead necromancers that don't care if the zombies "drop gore" everywhere.
I'm sure there would be. Just none that would have a courtyard. Necromancers who don't care if zombies drop gore everywhere would, I think, live in ruins or abandoned graveyards.
When I think of undead with courtyards, I think of Dracula, whose residence is very classy, not covered in rotten corpse pieces.
Um.....???
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I feel it is asking too much to expect players to spend $25 per shirt for each day of a con. Obviously I do have some expandable money if I can visit the con but it is wrong to presume everyone can justify $100(and maybe shipping) for four shirts, one for each day of the con. I did not buy it to reroll one day per con. I bought it to reroll once per game. Yes, I know the guide says it is to be worn. That still does not change my opinion on the matter. I think sharing our opinions is partially what these boards are for.
Players aren't 'expected' to spend anything on shirts. They are expected to have a legal copy of the core book, the PFS rules, and a copy of Seeker of Secrets (the Field Guide now). That's it. In most cases even that isn't enforced.
I -am- flattered that someone would go through all the effort to create a new, second account with a new alias to keep up the old sidethread.Um.....???I guess there aren't any necromancers who want a horde of zombies outside to deter invaders. Or undead necromancers that don't care if the zombies "drop gore" everywhere.
I'm sure there would be. Just none that would have a courtyard. Necromancers who don't care if zombies drop gore everywhere would, I think, live in ruins or abandoned graveyards.
When I think of undead with courtyards, I think of Dracula, whose residence is very classy, not covered in rotten corpse pieces.
Can'tFindthePath has 362 posts, some dating back almost 2 years.
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Totally dig SKR's advancement system as well as Vital Strike with Spring Attack idea.
And although I wouldn't be surprised if the staff was scared off this thread, I'd be curious too what, if any, 3pp they've cracked/allowed at their tables to use. A lot of neat stuff floating around but at the same time I can understand any hesitance as Pathfinder itself is already getting a lot of options. Not to mention I don't want the question/answer to come off as playing favorites or bias. So if thats an issue, nevermind.
I believe the irony of all this is that people feel the need to respond...
But hopefully some one see's this:
There's some interest in what 3PP folks might have used in their games, just as a "behind the scenes" sort of thing. Obviously we're not asking you to tell us which ones are good or bad, that's what reviews are for.
As an aside, have any of the Paizo staff grabbed old 3.5 (or even older!) stuff and incorporated it into their games?
As an aside, have any of the Paizo staff grabbed old 3.5 (or even older!) stuff and incorporated it into their games?
Jacobs frequently uses stuff from the Advanced Bestiary (a 3E product).
Jacobs frequently uses stuff from the Advanced Bestiary (a 3E product).
So do quite a few of the modules that Paizo releases :). And the Tome of Horrors.
I pretty much play by the book, except for my steps-based level advancement system.
I have to say thats quite nice, and might be useful in PbP games too where it takes even longer to reach the next level.
However a few questions:
a) which category is fighter/wizard bonus feats or the witch hexes? Special I guess?
b) would a level 1D witch get her 2nd level patron spell, or is that something that's actually tied to level, and therefore you still get it at level 2?
c) normal feats are still given at full level and not tied to the HD category?
Creative Director
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People are mean on the internet.
More on-topic: Do any of the Paizo staff dabble in the 3PP stuff? With so much out there I was wondering if folks might have picked up stuff like Psionics or even some off the alternate races published.
We do.
Personally, since I don't have time to look through all the 3PP stuff out there, I tend to limit my use of that content to a few companies for the most part. Green Ronin (mostly Book of Fiends and Advanced Bestiary) and Necromancer (Tome of Horrors) come immediately to mind.
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Creative Director
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I believe the irony of all this is that people feel the need to respond...
But hopefully some one see's this:
There's some interest in what 3PP folks might have used in their games, just as a "behind the scenes" sort of thing. Obviously we're not asking you to tell us which ones are good or bad, that's what reviews are for.
As an aside, have any of the Paizo staff grabbed old 3.5 (or even older!) stuff and incorporated it into their games?
Yes.
Aside from things like Book of Fiends and Advanced Bestiary and Tome of Horrors (all 3.0 or 3.5 books that we also utilize VERY often in print in adventures), I often use older adventures in games I'm running.
My "Shadows Under Sandpoint" campaign used a heavily modified Keep on the Borderlands as its central adventure.
My Saturday Serpent's Skull game replaced the ruins of Tazion with the big temple from the old adventure "Temple of Death," mostly because Rob's in that game and I wanted to change things up. I'll probably be invoking "Dwellers of the Forbidden City" as well once the group gets to Saventh-Yhi.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I don't use much 3PP stuff in my current campaign, mostly because I've been a massive house-ruler in the past and this time around I wanted to play a campaign pretty well straight-up. In the past, I was still more likely to make up my own house rules (like a full-on recreation and expansion of the Al-Qadim classes along with a new magic system for an AQ game) than to buy 3PP stuff to use.
I am running the Kingmaker AP right now, but historically I have been a frequent user of older-edition adventures, articles, and supplements wherever and whenever I thought they might be fun. Many 2nd Ed boxed sets (e.g., the Undermountain boxes, Ruins of Myth Drannor, the AQ Dozen and One Adventures, Cities of Bone, and Ruined Kingdoms, etc.) were liberally pillaged for set-pieces that I reshuffled and wove into the campaign at different points.
I have used the Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin, which James gave me a copy of years ago, both in my home game and in some adventure writing. For a while as a player I was using Hyperconscious (from Malhavoc maybe, or might have been Dreamscarred) that another player gave me.
P.S. In PF, zombies don't eat brains; in fact, they don't eat anything. From the PRD: "Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep."
P.P.S. Yay for I1! :)
P.S. In PF, zombies don't eat brains; in fact, they don't eat anything. From the PRD: "Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep."
To be fair, from the descriptive text of Zombie in the Bestiary:
"Zombies are unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders. When left unattended, zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures to slaughter and devour."
To be even more fair, later in the same section:
"Although capable of following orders, zombies are more often unleashed into an area with no command other than to kill living creatures. As a result, zombies are often encountered in packs, wandering around places the living frequent, looking for victims."
However a few questions:
a) which category is fighter/wizard bonus feats or the witch hexes? Special I guess?
b) would a level 1D witch get her 2nd level patron spell, or is that something that's actually tied to level, and therefore you still get it at level 2?
c) normal feats are still given at full level and not tied to the HD category?
a) that's Special
b) that's Specialc) gaining feats is based on HD (not levels), so you gain your new feat at HD 3, 5, etc.
c) gaining feats is based on HD (not levels), so you gain your new feat at HD 3, 5, etc.
Category A is called "HD/HP/BAB", so a 2A character gets his 3rd level feat?
I'm asking, because later in your document it actually says "For example, a level 5ABC character counts as a fifth-level character for all level-based rules, such as when he gains a new feat or his eighth-level ability score increase".
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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P.S. In PF, zombies don't eat brains; in fact, they don't eat anything. From the PRD: "Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep."To be fair, from the descriptive text of Zombie in the Bestiary:
"Zombies are unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders. When left unattended, zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures to slaughter and devour."
To be even more fair, later in the same section:
"Although capable of following orders, zombies are more often unleashed into an area with no command other than to kill living creatures. As a result, zombies are often encountered in packs, wandering around places the living frequent, looking for victims."
And to be the fairest of them all, by your own first quote:
"When left unattended..."
Unless their HD exceeded their creator's HD limit to control, the zombies in the courtyard would not be left unattended. They were not being unleashed anywhere. They were placed specifically into a place (a courtyard) to guard it (a standing order). Being mindless, they are literally incapable of violating that standing order unless they become uncontrolled or are compelled to do otherwise. Which Fozbek already stated.
And, in your second quote, "with no command other than to kill living creatures."
Those zombies are not wandering around on their own looking for brains. They are following their last standing order "to kill living creatures" (which you can flavor text as eating brains if you like, though it is not stipulated as such in the rules).
Which goes back to your first quote, "can do little more than follow orders."
They can be ordered to go around killing, or they can be ordered to stand motionless and silent in a courtyard and kill anyone who enters. They don't get hungry or tired or bored. They just stand there until something comes by to kill, and then they stand there some more until something else comes by to kill, rinse, repeat.
c) gaining feats is based on HD (not levels), so you gain your new feat at HD 3, 5, etc.Category A is called "HD/HP/BAB", so a 2A character gets his 3rd level feat?
I'm asking, because later in your document it actually says "For example, a level 5ABC character counts as a fifth-level character for all level-based rules, such as when he gains a new feat or his eighth-level ability score increase".
Ha! Caught me misremembering my own rule. :P Your level is your level, not your HD, for determining feats. :)
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I'm not a designer, but I like the Class Defense Bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana. They went really well with the d20 Rokugan games that I have run in the past.
And to be the fairest of them all, by your own first quote:
"When left unattended..."
Unless their HD exceeded their creator's HD limit to control, the zombies in the courtyard would not be left unattended. They were not being unleashed anywhere. They were placed specifically into a place (a courtyard) to guard it (a standing order). Being mindless, they are literally incapable of violating that standing order unless they become uncontrolled or are compelled to do otherwise. Which Fozbek already stated.
And, in your second quote, "with no command other than to kill living creatures."
Those zombies are not wandering around on their own looking for brains. They are following their last standing order "to kill living creatures" (which you can flavor text as eating brains if you like, though it is not stipulated as such in the rules).
Which goes back to your first quote, "can do little more than follow orders."
They can be ordered to go around killing, or they can be ordered to stand motionless and silent in a courtyard and kill anyone who enters. They don't get hungry or tired or bored. They just stand there until something comes by to kill, and then they stand there some more until something else comes by to kill, rinse, repeat.
Pretty much this. Wandering zombies and skeletons have been given orders and released. In previous editions mindless undead follow their last order to the best of their ability, and to my knowledge nothing in their descriptions have changed this. That's why you find lots of mindless undead guarding tombs and lairs.
Say you're a bad guy and you want to leave your lair guarded. You make some undead minions, say something like "Remain here and kill anyone who enters that does not bear this seal (*points to signet ring, image, stitched emblem, arcane mark, etc*)". You then release them from your control and they stand around doing just this one thing. You can't give them further orders without re-establishing control (via spells, command undead, etc). Later some adventurers come into your lair when you're either A) out to lunch, B) doing something productive to your cause, C) already long dead. They then find a bunch of undead sitting around in the lair waiting to kill you.
That's another reason undead are a great plot hook. If a town is suddenly besieged by "wandering undead", then there is someone who made them and gave them an order causing them to wander. What reason might the necromancer have for wanting everyone or everything in this area killed? Is he trying to clear the area to make a fortress? Perhaps he secretly wishes to push the local inhabitants to the breaking point and swoop in like a hero and assume notoriety and lull the populace into a sense of trust and devotion to him, their savior (who actually sent the mindless undead in the first place). Etc, etc.
Meanwhile, if you want a tomb guarded forever, stuff that sucker with lots of undead, and perhaps the occasional mummy or whatever. It'll be good and protected for centuries or even millenniums to come (doubly so if you add a resetting trap that baths the dungeon in negative energy every now and then to heal your mindless undead, as to avoid tomb robbers using attrition to rob you).
I'm not a designer, but I like the Class Defense Bonus rules from Unearthed Arcana. They went really well with the d20 Rokugan games that I have run in the past.
They are great rules. I personally prefer the Star Wars d20 defense bonuses, for which the UA defense bonuses were based, but really either one can work well. ^-^
P.S. In PF, zombies don't eat brains; in fact, they don't eat anything. From the PRD: "Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep."To be fair, from the descriptive text of Zombie in the Bestiary:
"Zombies are unthinking automatons, and can do little more than follow orders. When left unattended, zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures to slaughter and devour."
To be even more fair, later in the same section:
"Although capable of following orders, zombies are more often unleashed into an area with no command other than to kill living creatures. As a result, zombies are often encountered in packs, wandering around places the living frequent, looking for victims."
And to be the fairest of them all, by your own first quote:
"When left unattended..."
Unless their HD exceeded their creator's HD limit to control, the zombies in the courtyard would not be left unattended. They were not being unleashed anywhere. They were placed specifically into a place (a courtyard) to guard it (a standing order). Being mindless, they are literally incapable of violating that standing order unless they become uncontrolled or are compelled to do otherwise. Which Fozbek already stated.
And, in your second quote, "with no command other than to kill living creatures."
Those zombies are not wandering around on their own looking for brains. They are following their last standing order "to kill living creatures" (which you can flavor text as eating brains if you like, though it is not stipulated as such in the rules).
Which goes back to your first quote, "can do little more than follow orders."
They can be ordered to go around killing, or they can be ordered to stand motionless and silent in a courtyard and kill anyone who enters. They don't get hungry or tired or bored. They just stand there until something...
Easy there, I wasn't challenging your statements as I agree completely with everything you and Sean have said on the....subject? (is it the subject if its a total threadjack/spinoff?) I was mainly pointing out that it does say "devour" in the descriptive text. Yes, I know, and its really just a hold-over or accident.
I was just saying.
And the second part was meant to support the scenario that SKR described, not to undermine it.
-Cheers
I pretty much play by the book, except for my steps-based level advancement system.
I really like this system.
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House rules for my Pathfinder game:
1. Comeliness back in as a stat. Rules from the 1st ed Unearthed Arcana used by the book. Interactions adjudicated after that. For example, using cosmetics can add to Comeliness but not to Charisma..
2. A natural 1 is a botch and a natural 20 is a crit for all checks, not just combat. Entertaining things can happen, especially when it's the BBEG botching a Diplomacy check and accidentally bragging about his evil plans as he forgets who he's talking to. "Wait, was that my inside voice?"
3. Mindless undead are not evil and spells to make them do not gain the Evil descriptor, but are still banned in most civilized lands as socially unacceptable.
4. Folklore over mechanics. If there's some well known bit of folklore or literary precedent for dealing with a certain monster a certain way, it may work, even if it's not in the stat block. Likewise, it may have some extra powers not listed in the stat block but listed in the folklore books.
5. Physics over mechanics. Just because a certain set of rules doesn't model reality in all circumstances doesn't mean that GM fiat can't fix things to make it believable.
perhaps I can explain. In my own experience, there is something to be said for feeling the limitations of your level before you bump up. This is most felt near the end of a big story arc where you may face off against the BBEG. Its like starving yourself of cake before your birthday. When you finally get the cake, it tastes divine.
I think that step experience is cool, just not my taste. I dont need a reward every session or every 2 sessions or whathaveyou. I can go many sessions without a reward, knowing that it is just over the horizon. I don't need to count xp, I just need to know when the stone giant arch-wizard dies by my hand, I will suddenly gain 4 skill points, a feat, a high level spell slot, and a HD increase :P
I'm the opposite, one of the reasons I loved Earthdawn so much was that you could spend your legend points to improve you character basically as soon as you get them. It seems far more artificial to DING! level up all at once.
I'm not a designer, but ...
I would just like to formerly open this thread to all the other folks at Paizo, other companies, freelancers, contributor, groupies, and anyone else with some good house rules.