RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Okay, in a home game the obvious answer would be "ask your GM".
But this is PFS.
Question: can you buy a fireball bead (as from the Necklace of Fireballs) individually? The CRB/PRD says the listed "types" of necklaces are simply the more common assortments, and it gives you the formula for pricing individual beads (150gp per d6 of damage). Wouldn't that mean I can just buy a bead if I want to have a fireball handy? Or does PFS limit you to only the "normal" assortments?
Related: can a Necklace of Fireballs (or one of its beads) be safely carried in your backpack or handy haversack or whatever? Is it only vulnerable while out in the open?
a) I would say that you can't buy necklaces of fireballs with less than the full number of charges, just like you can't buy wands with less than the full number of charges. But I don't have any "official" ruling to back that up.
b) Sure, you could carry it in any number of safe places when you're not using it. But if you want to actually use it, you would have to have it occupying your neck slot and thus you would be at risk.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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a) I would say that you can buy necklaces of fireballs with less than the full number of charges, just like you can't buy wands with less than the full number of charges. But I don't have any "official" ruling to back that up.
Well you're no help, are you?
I kid, I kid. ;)
b) Sure, you can safely carry it any number of safe places when you're not using it. But if you want to actually use it, you have to have it occupying your neck slot and thus you're at risk.
Is that to say I can't have an individual bead (even if I started with a full necklace and just have one bead left) in my backpack, pull it out, and throw it? Are you meaning that I have to still have it on the string, actually put it on, and then yank the bead and throw it?
Because if so, that would seem really... odd.
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a) I would say that you can buy necklaces of fireballs with less than the full number of charges, just like you can't buy wands with less than the full number of charges. But I don't have any "official" ruling to back that up.
b) Sure, you can safely carry it any number of safe places when you're not using it. But if you want to actually use it, you have to have it occupying your neck slot and thus you're at risk.
Hogarth did you mean to say, "a) I would say that you can't buy necklaces of fireballs with..."?
Is that to say I can't have an individual bead (even if I started with a full necklace and just have one bead left) in my backpack, pull it out, and throw it? Are you meaning that I have to still have it on the string, actually put it on, and then yank the bead and throw it?Because if so, that would seem really... odd.
Sorry, I was wrong about this part -- it specifically does not take up the neck slot.
Hogarth did you mean to say, "a) I would say that you can't buy necklaces of fireballs with..."?
Yes, there were a number of typographical errors that I corrected. And apparently, one factual error that I didn't correct. :-)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But a Necklace of Fireballs doesn't have charges. It has individual beads.
Consider this: wands are priced in the book as fully-charged wands. If you want to have a partially-charged wand, you have to do the math yourself. But the fireball beads are specifically given a formula for pricing them on their own. The "types" are listed not as individual magic items, but as "traditional" sets.
This seems very different from a wand's charges.
Basically, I think it's clear in the RAW that you CAN buy individual beads; my question is whether anyone knows of any PFS restriction on this (since PFS sometimes has special rules on certain things).
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But a Necklace of Fireballs doesn't have charges. It has individual beads.
Consider this: wands are priced in the book as fully-charged wands. If you want to have a partially-charged wand, you have to do the math yourself. But the fireball beads are specifically given a formula for pricing them on their own. The "types" are listed not as individual magic items, but as "traditional" sets.
This seems very different from a wand's charges.
Basically, I think it's clear in the RAW that you CAN buy individual beads; my question is whether anyone knows of any PFS restriction on this (since PFS sometimes has special rules on certain things).
I believe that Hogarth is correct on buying anything but the standard Necklaces of Fireballs.
Reasons to support this:
The No Crafting rule, so non-standard items cannot be made if they require crafting: Neither the craft feats nor the item creation section of the magic items chapter in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook are legal for play.
The full value rule: You may only purchase items of less than full value if they appear on a chronicle sheet.
Full value for each Necklace of Fireballs is detailed in the CRB.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Reasons to support this:
The No Crafting rule, so non-standard items cannot be made if they require crafting: Neither the craft feats nor the item creation section of the magic items chapter in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook are legal for play.
Thank you for citing PFS rules. I don't think this applies, though, because I'm not talking about crafting anything. Just buying.
The full value rule: You may only purchase items of less than full value if they appear on a chronicle sheet.
Full value for each Necklace of Fireballs is detailed in the CRB.
Again, thank you for citing PFS rules. However, there is a flaw in applying the "full value rule" to the Necklace of Fireballs: doing so would make most of the seven listed types illegal. For instance, a Type I would be exactly the same as a "partially used" Type IV. There are only three out of seven necklaces (Types IV, VI, and VII) that are not partially used versions of others.
Seeing as the individual beads are discrete physical objects that just happen to be on the same chain, I don't think an individual bead (or a necklace with a bead missing) is a "partially-used" item. Add to this the aforementioned difference in pricing (i.e., wands are priced as a whole while the entry for the necklaces gives you pricing per bead) and it really looks to me like this is a whole different ball of wax.
So is anyone aware of one of the following?
1) A post/FAQ from a higher-up stating that the full value rule DOES apply to the Necklace of Fireballs, or
2) A different rule that more clearly applies.
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Thank you for citing PFS rules. I don't think this applies, though, because I'm not talking about crafting anything. Just buying.
It does apply though, just not as directly as by implying that you "craft" the rule. The rule states that you are not allowed to buy any item which does not appear in the item tables. Sure there are rules for things such as intelligent weapons and crafting your own magic items (including buying partially charged wands and the like), but as they do not appear in those tables they are not available for purchase.
I believe this is one of those such situations. Individual beads might be listed in the description, but since the items always come as a set in the tables, that's how we must purchase them.
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Again, thank you for citing PFS rules. However, there is a flaw in applying the "full value rule" to the Necklace of Fireballs: doing so would make most of the seven listed types illegal. For instance, a Type I would be exactly the same as a "partially used" Type IV. There are only three out of seven necklaces (Types IV, VI, and VII) that are not partially used versions of others.
You make an assumption with this that the lower types started as something else and evolved to their current type from use. This does not appear to be supported by the rules anywhere. Especially as they have crafting values per type.
(EDIT: Found it in the description. Still, agree that you would have to find it in a chronicle sheet as you would be purchasing part of a whole.)
Also there are no rules (that I have seen) for buying individual beads.
Seems like a pretty cut and dried no to me.
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Jiggy,
So I put a few things together to help clarify this rule.
First off, here is one of Josh's many posts on the subject:
Can you find that item and it's price in the Core Rulebook without using the crafting rules to determine its cost?
This is absolutely not legal. You can only buy partially charged wands and smaller quantities of magical ammunition when they appear on a chronicle sheet that way. Otherwise, purchasing these items requires you to purchase them at full--50 charges, 50 pieces of ammo, etc. Things purchased from the Core are purchased at full value. You can't, for example, buy a broken longsword on the cheap and then repair it to save money. The Guide doesn't allow for that.
The important part of Josh's post is that you have to be able to find the item in the Core Rulebook without resorting to item crafting (or if you read the RAI, without resorting to reverse engineering).
In the case of the Necklace of Fireballs, the text reads:
Each necklace of fireballs contains a combination of spheres of various strengths. Some traditional combinations, designated types I through VII, are detailed above.
You can note that the item description does not give a price per bead for you to mix and match your own, it provides common variations of this item. Since each type of bead does not come with a specific price, it can't be bought as an individual bead and must be bought in the configurations present in the book.
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Jiggy,
So I put a few things together to help clarify this rule.
First off, here is one of Josh's many posts on the subject:
Can you find that item and it's price in the Core Rulebook without using the crafting rules to determine its cost?
This is absolutely not legal. You can only buy partially charged wands and smaller quantities of magical ammunition when they appear on a chronicle sheet that way. Otherwise, purchasing these items requires you to purchase them at full--50 charges, 50 pieces of ammo, etc. Things purchased from the Core are purchased at full value. You can't, for example, buy a broken longsword on the cheap and then repair it to save money. The Guide doesn't allow for that.
The important part of Josh's post is that you have to be able to find the item in the Core Rulebook without resorting to item crafting (or if you read the RAI, without resorting to reverse engineering).
In the case of the Necklace of Fireballs, the text reads:
Each necklace of fireballs contains a combination of spheres of various strengths. Some traditional combinations, designated types I through VII, are detailed above.You can note that the item description does not give a price per bead for you to mix and match your own, it provides common variations of this item. Since each type of bead does not come with a specific price, it can't be bought as an individual bead and must be bought in the configurations present in the book.
I think where Jiggy is coming from is that the book does say:
The market price of a sphere is 150 gp for each die of damage it deals.
However it doesn't say that you can buy the spheres individually
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I think where Jiggy is coming from is that the book does say:
The market price of a sphere is 150 gp for each die of damage it deals.However it doesn't say that you can buy the spheres individually
Ah, well there's your problem, I missed that line. I still will argue that like all ammunition, it cannot be broken down to its component parts.
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I would lean toward allowing the spheres to be purchased individually, but only because they would be the most non-economical means of having access to fireballs. You are really paying out the nose for a minimal bang. What concerns me is the Pandora's Box that cracks open when campaign rules are interpreted in a liberal fashion.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Ah, well there's your problem, I missed that line. I still will argue that like all ammunition, it cannot be broken down to its component parts.I think where Jiggy is coming from is that the book does say:
The market price of a sphere is 150 gp for each die of damage it deals.However it doesn't say that you can buy the spheres individually
Yeah, as of my last post, it seemed like I was the only one was noticing that line. The full entry for the Necklace of Fireballs shows it to be a whole different beast from wands and their charges.
What I was actually missing (which is silly of me, as I already knew it and wasn't thinking of it) was that PFS also prohibits buying individual pieces of ammunition. If that's explicit in the OrgPlay guide, I apologize, as I don't have access to that from here. :P Anyway, the beads are much more similar to ammunition than charges, so addressing that point solves the problem for me.
Thanks to everyone who pointed out the ammo thing (and I guess extra props to Ryan for being first).
Still might buy me a necklace, though...
As for the individual beads, maybe it is worded differently in some rulebook somewhere, but I have always played the necklace of fireballs as basically the same as grenades. Pulling the bead from the necklace is the same as pulling the pin from a grenade. You use it or you blow yourself up. As for buying individual beads, even if you could, my ruling would be that they would not be active until they were magically attached to the necklace. So you would not be able to just pull a loose bead out of your pocket or pack and use it.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Wow, quite the necro here.
But while we're on the subject, do you have to be wearing the necklace to chuck a bead? Or can you pull it out of your pack and chuck a bead without putting it on first?
Note that it does not take up the "neck" magic item slot.
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Wow, quite the necro here.
But while we're on the subject, do you have to be wearing the necklace to chuck a bead? Or can you pull it out of your pack and chuck a bead without putting it on first?
Note that it does not take up the "neck" magic item slot.
I would say this is an RPG ruleing and not a PFS ruleing, and thus should go on the RPG forum