|
I was looking at Jade Regent and thinking about the very much not just Japanese but also 'Shintoesque' feeling I got reading the descriptions (never mind what it's going to do with my PFS Minkai-jin paladin's who worships Sarenrae as her divine ancestress under her 'proper' name's background).
At the same time, I was thinking about my 'Arcadian' scenario that been crawling in the back of my head involving Corpse Powder, Trickster coyotes, witches, kachima spirits, cannabalism, skinwalkers and other interesting stuff I realized that if I ever tried to publish anything like that I'd probably face a some of bad publicity by 'appropriating cultural heritage' for a 'mere' game.
I recently walked away from an arguement with another forumite about the Synthisist Summoner where I mentioned spirit possesion for a possible background among other ideas because he felt it didn't fit the class as described, though I felt it fitted what the design team might have envisioned in some cases.
Ignore for a the sake of argument that Tony Hillerman is less popular than Samurai in most gaming circles, I was curious as to what others think about the issues involved with cultural appropriation/adaptation/use in gaming?
Can Jade Regent be too Shinto? Do people have the right to be offended by an uncomplimentary description of an 'Arcadian' culture or that all Mwangian seem to be less technically sophisticated that those of the inner sea region?
Basically, I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about any or all of these issues.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was looking at Jade Regent and thinking about the very much not just Japanese but also 'Shintoesque' feeling I got reading the descriptions (never mind what it's going to do with my PFS Minkai-jin paladin's who worships Sarenrae as her divine ancestress under her 'proper' name's background).
Bushido was my Japanese gaming phase. Still love that game.
At the same time, I was thinking about my 'Arcadian' scenario that been crawling in the back of my head involving Corpse Powder, Trickster coyotes, witches, kachima spirits, cannabalism, skinwalkers and other interesting stuff I realized that if I ever tried to publish anything like that I'd probably face a some of bad publicity by 'appropriating cultural heritage' for a 'mere' game.
Never done the Amerindian bit. I've appropriated western European cultural heritage for mine :) No bad publicity. That I know of.
I recently walked away from an arguement with another forumite about the Synthisist Summoner where I mentioned spirit possesion for a possible background among other ideas because he felt it didn't fit the class as described, though I felt it fitted what the design team might have envisioned in some cases.
Disagreements happen. I wouldn't let it bother me. A lot of good ideas come out of discussions and disagreements. As I recently said in a thread here, I'd pass out if everyone on a thread agreed on everything. And the internet would explode :D
Ignore for a the sake of argument that Tony Hillerman is less popular than Samurai in most gaming circles, I was curious as to what others think about the issues involved with cultural appropriation/adaptation/use in gaming?
If someone can't seperate what happens in a FRPG from "real life" they have issues. My lawful church is very "Catholicesque" (there's a new word for you) and I wanted it to be for a pseudo medieval western setting. I have not had any Catholics (or Protestants) complain yet. If someone else is overly sensitive about their heritage being used, they are being overly sensitive. Mine is being used and it doesn't bother me.
Can Jade Regent be too Shinto? Do people have the right to be offended by an uncomplimentary description of an 'Arcadian' culture or that all Mwangian seem to be less technically sophisticated that those of the inner sea region?
Too Shinto? No. No again, because it's not a real culture. Do people have the right to be offended by an uncomplimetary description of a pseudo European culture? Not really, unless they are just looking for a reason to be offended. In which case they will find it and there's nothing you can do about that.
Basically, I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about any or all of these issues.
Relax. It's a game. Have fun. And the offended by their culture being "appropriated" worry is a waste. They don't have it copyrighted. They are not the cultural owner or representative of all their people any more than you are of western culture. Keep it polite if you run into it. Just remind them it's a game and not meant to be "real" or offensive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd refer you to the father of it all -- Master Tolkien -- who delivered a lecture titled "On Fairy Stories" that can be found in The Tolkien Reader, as well as online. He presents an excellent academic treatment of this issue and points out that all creators of fiction are engaged in a process of "sub-creation", meaning that we create in the manner in which we were ourselves created. Of course, Tolkien's assertions were made from his beliefs as a Catholic, but the point he makes here is a telling one. In essence, his argument is that all writers appropriate their material from the world around them. Nothing new is every really created. So, as long as the intent is not to mock or trivialize, I'd say borrow at will.
|
|
Relax. It's a game. Have fun. And the offended by their culture being "appropriated" worry is a waste. They don't have it copyrighted. They are not the cultural owner or representative of all their people any more than you are of western culture. Keep it polite if you run into it. Just remind them it's a game and not meant to be "real" or offensive.
Got ya, and I'm relaxed. I was more curious about it from a design perspective. What people expect etc. And last night in my first post I obsessed about a lot of things that maybe muddied the issue a bit.
In RL we have unwritten rules about what we accept.
For example, if were to base a fictional society on the Pre Civil War American South, replaced black people with 'orcs', who are after all, stupider and stronger and make good field hands, and then presented it as a 'good thing' because evil was under control, I'd raise a few eyebrows.
One PFS society character concept I've never used was a Cheliaxian Arcane line sorcerer character who had been cowed and experimented on until he was obeidient, complete with a bird familiar who threatens to torture the character routinely. I could play it for laughs and I could probably get away with it.
If I described him as wearing striped pajamas I think I'd get a rather different reaction.
One of the complaints about Wizards of the Coast in relation to 4e is that they've removed moral ambiguity from their products.
I'm curious as to were peoples limits are and what limits people Paizo has? If you go too far with being one direction you come off as overly worried, or 'Politically Corrrect' as I suspect I did to you in my first post. If I go too far the other way I could face being drummed out of a game.
|
|
All you can really do is be true to yourself.
Okay, what would cause you (being true to yourself) to climb across the table and slap the other player (who is being true to themselves)?
What would cause Paizo to say, "lawsuit territory/plublicity nightmare" not going there in the interest of "being true to themselves"?
Any culture is fair game for fiction and fantasy settings. No one can prevent another from using mythology in new and innovative ways to bring their settings to life. Yes some (likely a very, very small denomination) might take offense, but who cares?
I've never ran into this issue at a table; this is truly an alien concept to me. I cannot imagine someone taking offense at others for borrowing elements from their (the offended) culture/religion/etc. for the sake of roleplaying. If anything, they might take offense at how the material is presented. This is easily avoided by blurring any major changes from traditional mythology figures (example: Jesus Christ depicted as a tentacled extraplanar rapist) by changing names, aspects, and so on. This should be encouraged anyway as the writer/developer begins to make the setting their own.
Borrowing concepts from cultures should never be a problem; this changes when the writer hijacks deities, spirits, saints, and similiar creations.
What's the significance of the striped pajamas?
What's the significance of the striped pajamas?
Concentration camp I'd guess.
|
|
Concentration camp I'd guess.
What's the significance of the striped pajamas?
Yes, it was all the fashion craze in Nazi concentration camps back in the early forties.
Which one is healthier? To take offense or to make jokes? I don't know. The decision to take offense and how to demonstrate that offense is a personal one. I think it's funny that somebody might act like there are rules for this kind of thing.
I think it's a sign I was thinking about this way too seriously last night.
I know one group of people who practically everyone feels comfortable mocking even more than Rednecks who do think a lot about this type of stuff; Lawyers.
I removed a post. Please don't try to evade the profanity filter.
|
Any culture is fair game for fiction and fantasy settings. No one can prevent another from using mythology in new and innovative ways to bring their settings to life.
I agree.
Yes some (likely a very, very small denomination) might take offense, but who cares?
This however is a bit too far. Who cares? I do. Reasonable attempts not to offend or misrepresent something important to someone else is appropriate. The best way to do that is probaby to avoid stereotypes and broad generalizations in fiction the sMe way we do in real life.
Reasonable attempts not to offend or misrepresent something important to someone else is appropriate. The best way to do that is probaby to avoid stereotypes and broad generalizations in fiction the sMe way we do in real life.
And this is exactly what I meant when I wrote...
If anything, they might take offense at how the material is presented. This is easily avoided by blurring any major changes from traditional mythology figures (example: Jesus Christ depicted as a tentacled extraplanar rapist) by changing names, aspects, and so on. This should be encouraged anyway as the writer/developer begins to make the setting their own.
So when I say "who cares?" this is meant after the name-changing and concept shuffling has been done. If it's not a verbatim (Quetzalcoatl-is-Quetzalcoatl) representation, then offense cannot be taken (not by a sane mind).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The premise of this thread is based on a misunderstanding of the concept of cultural appropriation by the OP. Allow me to quote Wikipedia: "Cultural appropriation is the adoption of some specific elements of one culture by a different cultural group." The article goes on to explain that cultural appropriation is generally negative, otherwise we would call it cultural assimilation.
White Americans adopting black music is the ur example of cultural appropriation. It is generally considered negative because in most of the contexts in which the term is used (such as the music example) the culture doing the appropriating is oppressing the culture being appropriated, which becomes problematic when the dominant culture is claiming that the oppression is necessary because the oppressed people's own culture is inferior. Or more simply put: If black culture is inferior to white culture, why do whites keep adopting the artifacts of black culture? Why would you adopt the artifacts of an inferior culture to your own? Answer: You wouldn't, thus obviously black culture is not inferior to white culture.
Role-playing games are not an example of cultural appropriation, because role-playing games are mostly played by white Americans and are a product of white American culture. We didn't steal RPGs from a minority group we oppress while denying them the credit for its invention.
So when we talk about things like Tien and whether it references Japan and Shinto, we're talking about something other than cultural appropriation. We're talking about cultural reference cues in the context of a work of fiction -- Creating signs within the work that point to something outside the work in order to create the illusion of greater depth in the setting of the fiction.
Referencing a culture in a fictional work isn't the same thing as adopting that culture or its artifacts. The purpose of referencing a culture is only to suggest that which fills in the gaps.
Ex: If I say "You are in a land of Ninjas and Samurais. You are approaching the home of Shogun Maztihuri. His guards stand ready with their naganata." then you are probably imaging the guards in some form of Japanese armor, and the house you're picturing has rice paper walls and a sand garden. If I say you sit on the floor across from the Shogun, you fill in the blanks and imagine you're sitting on a bamboo reed mat.
Referencing a culture in a fictional work only becomes an issue over which people can reasonably get righteously indignant about when the reference is made in such a way that it produces significant negative implications about the culture being referenced. When this done on accident, its an example of unfortunate implications
Ex: Creating a game setting in which all of the blood-thirsty, marauding Orcs speak in urban slang and listen to hip-hop is making a cultural reference with unfortunate implications. Unless your intent is denigrate black people, you don't want to do thing like imply that black people are violent, subhuman beasts by attributing references to their culture to violent, subhuman beasts.
The references to Japan and other Asian cultures in the Jade Regent AP and the Tien supplementsare very unlikely to carry these sort of unfortunate implications, given paizo's track record so far.
One thing id like to say ont he matter is. Alot of people dont i think nececassirly play for Cultural imersion. If Weapons are called a Kusari Gama a Katana etc, as a player they tell me imeditely wht the items look like. It doesnt bother me remotely if were in a Faux Chinese area and those names are used. Any more than a player using a Scimitar int he land of the linnorm kings.
The difference is that in the Western European imagery for fantasy alot of the mix and max cultueral stuff has basically been happening a long time and were used to it so it doesnt stand out.
All in all theres nothing wrong with it in my view.