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I'm seriously hoping you used feats and other options to balance out any balance discrepancies, or perhaps an OPTIONAL "alternative rules for balance" sidebar. That way, people won't feel forced to play a "dumbed down version" of what they once thought was a cool race.
Agreed and seconded. If their is two versions I will stick with the Bestirary one. I see no reason to take a weaker version of the same race
I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.
I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.
Did they? Where at?
It is kinda common sense , They do not have Hd, so they do not get the free skills or any other niffty Items that comes with HD
Also case In point, Look up any of the Planetouched stat blocks, you will not see weapons there not provided by the class.
Creative Director
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I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.
They're saying here right now if that counts.
Weapon and armor proficiencies are basically "rewards" you get for taking a class level OR getting a racial hit die. Some races (like elf or tengu) do grant specific weapon proficiencies regardless of Hit Dice, and in those cases, they have a specific racial trait that lists that.
But beyond that, a creature that does not possess racial Hit Dice gains its weapon and armor proficiencies pretty much ONLY by taking class levels and feats. Thus, a tiefling or aasimar does not gain the standard Outsider trait of "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry," and the human doesn't gain the standard Humanoid trait of "proficient with all simple weapons."
It's not really spelled out as clearly as it probably should be, I agree, but it's also kind of common sense as well.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.
They don't need a -2 because their other racial features aren't that good.
And the Aasimar has a +2 to two Abilities but no -2.
Gotta disagree. By no means do I think the Aasimar is overpowered but I do think it is a strong race. Compare to Human. For the cost of 1 feat and some skills you get an additional +2 to a stat, and if wis or cha are the stat you'd bump as a human, the other never hurts. You get a +2 to perception and diplomacy, 2 of the most used skills in the game. Daylight has saved my hide more times than I can count, it's never a spell I like memorizing (heck I often play wizards with evocation barred) and yet popping darkness is a fairly common monster tactic at low levels.
They make amazing sorcerers, clerics or oracles, obviously decent paladins though I'd probably prefer a +2 to strength.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.
Huh wha? I know that was the case in 3.5, but I thought that was changed in Pathfinder.
So Giants are susceptable to Hold Person, but Tieflings aren't? That's... strange.And now this, IMO, throws them into "more powerful than the core races" category.
I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.They're saying here right now if that counts.
Weapon and armor proficiencies are basically "rewards" you get for taking a class level OR getting a racial hit die. Some races (like elf or tengu) do grant specific weapon proficiencies regardless of Hit Dice, and in those cases, they have a specific racial trait that lists that.
But beyond that, a creature that does not possess racial Hit Dice gains its weapon and armor proficiencies pretty much ONLY by taking class levels and feats. Thus, a tiefling or aasimar does not gain the standard Outsider trait of "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry," and the human doesn't gain the standard Humanoid trait of "proficient with all simple weapons."
It's not really spelled out as clearly as it probably should be, I agree, but it's also kind of common sense as well.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
I personally dont think Aasimar are powerful enough to worry about. Their abilities dont synergise in any way that is really 'optimal', unlike a few of the Tiefling variants (Str + Cha? Heck yeah, demon paladin!), and their SLA is not all that great.
I'd let one in a game I was running if the player had a good reason for it, without worrying about it unbalancing anything.
I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.They're saying here right now if that counts.
Weapon and armor proficiencies are basically "rewards" you get for taking a class level OR getting a racial hit die. Some races (like elf or tengu) do grant specific weapon proficiencies regardless of Hit Dice, and in those cases, they have a specific racial trait that lists that.
But beyond that, a creature that does not possess racial Hit Dice gains its weapon and armor proficiencies pretty much ONLY by taking class levels and feats. Thus, a tiefling or aasimar does not gain the standard Outsider trait of "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry," and the human doesn't gain the standard Humanoid trait of "proficient with all simple weapons."
It's not really spelled out as clearly as it probably should be, I agree, but it's also kind of common sense as well.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.
Thanks. Once I saw the racial HD does not get you X, and Y I wondered if it applied to Z also.
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Yes, they do.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Emphasis mine.
I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.They're saying here right now if that counts.
Weapon and armor proficiencies are basically "rewards" you get for taking a class level OR getting a racial hit die. Some races (like elf or tengu) do grant specific weapon proficiencies regardless of Hit Dice, and in those cases, they have a specific racial trait that lists that.
But beyond that, a creature that does not possess racial Hit Dice gains its weapon and armor proficiencies pretty much ONLY by taking class levels and feats. Thus, a tiefling or aasimar does not gain the standard Outsider trait of "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry," and the human doesn't gain the standard Humanoid trait of "proficient with all simple weapons."
It's not really spelled out as clearly as it probably should be, I agree, but it's also kind of common sense as well.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
I agree. I think we should FAQ the response James made to me. I think James is correct, but what is gotten versus what is not gotten is not clear.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
A creature with no racial hitdice gains no benefit from it's type or subtype beyond just having that as it's type or subtype for the sake of spells, favored enemy, etc. Just like the 0-HD humanoid races gain no benefit from that type. You only get what is specifically called out in the racial description.
As such, Aasimar eat, sleep, and breath, and can be resurrected because they have nothing from the outsider subtype, and that is where it is said otherwise.
Even if this weren't the case, though, Aasimar are native outsiders, not normal outsiders, so:
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
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Aasimars and tieflings are pretty garbage. Adding a penalty (especially Con!) to aasimars would be horrible. They have useless SLAs, and energy resistance 5 is pretty lackluster. A lot of DMs think it is overpowered, and so specifically avoid hitting those characters with those energies. Thus, you have the same problem rangers have. Do you really have an ability if the DM never lets it come into play?
Give me my human bonus feat any day.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
From PFsrd,
Native Subtype
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
From PFsrd,
Native Subtype
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Yes, that's great, but what about all the other/future 0 HD non-humanoids that are not native outsiders?
Clarification is still needed. When it comes to creatures types, you give them everything, or nothing. The only other options is to have CLEAR INSTRUCTION on where the divide occurs.
All OR nothing OR clear instruction.
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I didn't know outsiders treat as outsiders with racial HD so they should not be immune to the hold person type spells. I know devs have said they don't get the other benefits outsiders get such as automatic proficiency with martial weapons and so on.They're saying here right now if that counts.
Weapon and armor proficiencies are basically "rewards" you get for taking a class level OR getting a racial hit die. Some races (like elf or tengu) do grant specific weapon proficiencies regardless of Hit Dice, and in those cases, they have a specific racial trait that lists that.
But beyond that, a creature that does not possess racial Hit Dice gains its weapon and armor proficiencies pretty much ONLY by taking class levels and feats. Thus, a tiefling or aasimar does not gain the standard Outsider trait of "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry," and the human doesn't gain the standard Humanoid trait of "proficient with all simple weapons."
It's not really spelled out as clearly as it probably should be, I agree, but it's also kind of common sense as well.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
Native Subtype
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
they get everything but weapon and armor profs. those only come from class or feats for a 0 hd creature.
So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
From PFsrd,
Native Subtype
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Yes, that's great, but what about all the other/future 0 HD non-humanoids that are not native outsiders?
That is what I was getting at also. What if next time it is an Aberration instead of an outsider with 0HD.
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Next spring, when the Advanced Race Guide is out, there will be a lot more options and advice for how to handle less powerful and more powerful zero HD races as player character options.
The toughest DM adjudication I had to make for zero HD races was when one of my players decided to play a svirfneblin monk... that race is so powerful I actually had to give him some Level Adjustment...
I really like what they did in CoT for the tiefling btw (i.e. a one time XP tax at level 1 for what used to be a LA+1 race sounds about right; for a LA+3 zero HD race I'm guessing you could put a similar tax at level 1, 2 and 3 (this way the player keeps leveling around the same time as the others; he's a bit behind in the low levels but catches up quick at mid levels)
I think the real challenge will be for non zero HD races (minotaurs, centaurs, etc.) I know the current rules have a way to deal with those, and they actually use a minotaur barbarian as an example, but these rules are really vague and could use some major improvements, illustration, and perhaps a table or two to ease the calculating task...)
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That is what I was getting at also. What if next time it is an Aberration instead of an outsider with 0HD.
Why would you think charm person would work on an aberration when the spell specifically says "humanoids only", whether the aberration has 0 racial HD, 1 racial HD, or 10 racial HD? It's still an aberration.
I've myself wondered about the Aasimar standing out from the other "standard" 0 hit dice extra races, due to his lacking a negative ability score to his two good ones. Good to know that balance wasn't really taken into account into this, because the race wasn't thought of as a standard player race. No wonder I got three Aasimars ( and two Tieflings ) in my two groups... that's 50% of the total player characters between those two groups! I guess they think that with only a 15 point buy they got to get their little power-ups wherever they can. :p
That being said, the Aasimar doesn't hang together all that badly as some people make him out to be. They make excellent Clerics and are beneficial for a good number of other classes. Their skill bonuses synergize very well with those classes, too and darkvision and resistances never hurt, either. The Aasimar players in my two Kingmaker campaigns surely appreciated the cold resistance during the week long snow downfalls I confronted them with at the beginning of the campaign!
And Daylight isn't that bad a spell at all. Yeah, the Aasimars got Darkvision, but half the other PC's don't per group. And I remember very well those exhausting two sessions ( when I was still a player ), when a Shadow Demon almost wiped out the group, because his Deeper Darkness could not be defeated by what we had at hand in light sources.
That is what I was getting at also. What if next time it is an Aberration instead of an outsider with 0HD.Why would you think charm person would work on an aberration when the spell specifically says "humanoids only", whether the aberration has 0 racial HD, 1 racial HD, or 10 racial HD? It's still an aberration.
My point was that there is no guideline for what you get from a race as opposed to what racial HD give. I could try to use the outsider rules James gave as a guideline, and that is ok for me in my home games if I am the GM, but I would want something more concrete. Some people interpret rules better than others.
Clarification is still needed. When it comes to creatures types, you give them everything, or nothing. The only other options is to have CLEAR INSTRUCTION on where the divide occurs.
All OR nothing OR clear instruction.
Nothing. You get nothing. Everything that a type or subtype grants, it grants on the first racial HD. The ONLY thing that having the outsider type grants you is the little [outsider] tag which makes you an invalid target for things like charm person which require the [humanoid] tag.
personally with any outsider blood race, ie tieflings and aasimar for example. I believe the player should select what type of ancestor they fiend/angel/devil/what ever, was. That IMO will effect the way they gain certain ablities and maybe some bonuses depending on what traits they pick up on. ie, a person whose ancestor was an eryines will be diffrent then someone whose parent was an ice devil.
btw is there a chart for aaismar on what their celestial traits may be? I beleive there used to be one for planescape for tieflings, not sure if there was one for the other outsider blooded races.
I removed a post.
Personal attacks are not allowed.
personally with any outsider blood race, ie tieflings and aasimar for example. I believe the player should select what type of ancestor they fiend/angel/devil/what ever, was. That IMO will effect the way they gain certain ablities and maybe some bonuses depending on what traits they pick up on. ie, a person whose ancestor was an eryines will be diffrent then someone whose parent was an ice devil.
btw is there a chart for aaismar on what their celestial traits may be? I beleive there used to be one for planescape for tieflings, not sure if there was one for the other outsider blooded races.
The 1st council of theives book allowed you to have different stats depending on where you were related to demons, devils, and so on. It also had alternate powers(SLA's).
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personally with any outsider blood race, ie tieflings and aasimar for example. I believe the player should select what type of ancestor they fiend/angel/devil/what ever, was. That IMO will effect the way they gain certain ablities and maybe some bonuses depending on what traits they pick up on. ie, a person whose ancestor was an eryines will be diffrent then someone whose parent was an ice devil.
btw is there a chart for aaismar on what their celestial traits may be? I beleive there used to be one for planescape for tieflings, not sure if there was one for the other outsider blooded races.
Check out Pathfinder Adventure Path #25: The Bastards of Erebus for variant tiefling heritage and abilities.
I hold out that one day we'll see an aaismar version of this :)
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Creative Director
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So in the case of 0 HD non-humanoids, how do we tell what they get or don't get now?
I mean, do aasimar even eat, sleep, or breath?
Definitely a clarification for the FAQ.
As detailed in the last line of the outsider type on page 309 of the Bestairy, native outsiders (like aasimars and tieflings) do indeed breathe, eat, and sleep. This information is repeated on page 312 of the same book in the entry for the Native subtype.
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Creative Director
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Yes, that's great, but what about all the other/future 0 HD non-humanoids that are not native outsiders?
Clarification is still needed. When it comes to creatures types, you give them everything, or nothing. The only other options is to have CLEAR INSTRUCTION on where the divide occurs.
All OR nothing OR clear instruction.
IF we ever do a zero HD race that's something other than a native outsider or humanoid, we'll worry about that then. To date, i'm pretty sure we haven't done any zero HD races that are something other than native outsiders or humanoids. If we have, please let me know and I'll be happy to provide this desperately needed clarification.
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Even still, the Aasimar shouldn't be better than Tiefling -- it should be identical.
Why should they be identical? They're opposites in many ways. Influenced by Heaven versus influenced by Hell. (Using Heaven and Hell as place holders for the good and evil planes, respectively).
Are celestials and fiends identical? They're most certainly not. You can't draw up a list of fiends, a list of celestials, and match them up with their equivalents.
The celestials even have an ace up their sleeves - angels. Angels don't have an equivalent. You can say archons are the good devils, demons are the evil azatas, and daemons and agathions are evil twins to each other. But there is no evil angels, no fiend race that can be of each evil alignment.
And those angels are stronger than the fiends, too. Even the weakest of angels (not counting the familiar-type ones) are in the double digits when it comes to CR, and the strongest of regular angels (solars) are stronger than the strongest regular fiends (CR 23 over CR 20).
So why shouldn't celestial blood be stronger?
I'm not even saying that they are stronger. I say that nothing indicates that they should be equal.
And it IS, except for the -2 to an Ability score.
Not really.
Let's compare them:
Aasimars get +2 Wis +2 Cha
Tieflings get +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha, but get to ignore the Cha penalty for the sorcerer class with the right bloodline.
+2 Wis/Cha isn't that great, really. While they're never exactly useless, few character concepts really get to benefit from both at once (i.e. have class abilities powered by the two abilities)
You have clerics whose magic is powered by Wis and channeling is powered by Cha. And you have... well, that's it. You'll have to multiclass to get the most bang for your buck. Otherwise you mostly get a bonus to some skills and maybe to one of the saves. Not bad, but compared to what other races can get, that's basically nothing.
Maybe if they got Celestial Sorcery (i.e. an effective +2 Cha for sorcerer stuff with the right bloodline - aasimars are the only planetouched that don't get that)
On the other hand, +2 Dex/+2 Int -2 Cha is useful to lots of classes. Wizards get a kick out of it, and the -2 to cha couldn't matter less to them. Rogues that aren't concerned for that talky stuff will have a blast. They still come out ahead with bluff (because of the +2 bonus). Rangers will like the extra skill points. Tactical fighters will love it. Alchemists will be thrilled, too. And one of the classes that does need cha - sorcerers - get off the hook (well, they won't get a bonus to charisma, but they don't get a penalty, either).
I think tieflings actually get ahead here.
Aasimars get +2 Diplomacy and Perception.
Tieflings get +2 Bluff and Stealth.
Perception is always useful, the rest is more situational. Aasimars win this, but it's not exactly a major victory.
Aasimars get daylight, tieflings get darkness.
Darkness is the better here. They can turn everyone except those with darkvision blind. Guess who has darkvision? Tieflings! Guess who doesn't? 5 out of 7 core races. If you're up against NPC type enemies in dim interior places, you are going to devastate them.
Daylight is nice, and it does defeat darkness (unlike the light spell or torches), but when you're not up against tieflings or others with the darkness spell, this isn't so terribly useful.
Advantage tiefling, I'd say.
They're all res 5.
Tieflings get it against cold, elec and fire.
Aasimar get it against acid, cold and elec.
Only different in one element, but that's the big one: Tieflings are resistant to fire. Fire is probably the most widespread energy type enemies will throw at you. There are more fire-themed critters than acid-typed ones, and more fire spells than acid spells.
Clear advantage tiefling.
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Gotta admit that I really want to play an aasimar paladin for the flavor, however.Why not also add the Celestial Bloodline Via Eldritch heritage for some more flavor? (Opposite for Tiefling Paladin)
I'd have to look at it. Not a fan of spending three feats on something like that however.
Edit: Looked at it. More likely I'd multiclass celestial sorcerer and prestige into eldritch knight than spend the feats.
Aasimar is fine. Tiefling Wizards with improved familiar Cacodaemon, bit more scary.
I give them -2 Con and it seems to work fine.
THAT SAID: it's true that spell effects DO care about type. Hold person won't hurt a tiefling or aasimar, for example. Neither will charm person.Huh wha? I know that was the case in 3.5, but I thought that was changed in Pathfinder.
So Giants are susceptable to Hold Person, but Tieflings aren't? That's... strange.
And now this, IMO, throws them into "more powerful than the core races" category.
Yeah... just wait until you hit one with a 'holy word' or 'blasphemy' spell -- being outsider cuts both ways, and honestly I think it hurts much more than it helps.
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Weeee! Balance issues, imagined or otherwise.
Okay, enough of that.
Alternate Races
Only more experienced GMs should consider allowing the players to play anything other than races presented in chapter 2, but if you want to start experimenting, the following races from the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary are good choices for races that are close in power to those listed in Chapter 2.Aasimar
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Merfolk
Mite
Orc
Tengu
Tiefling
blah blah blah, the next races are even more powerful
This means that those races are available, but at the GMs discretion, and totally nothing worth complaining about balance. Because the GM is ultimately the one who determines if they are okay or not, the book openly admits that those races are more powerful, and it's not exactly a huge difference in power all things told.
The difference in power being discussed is one +1, which usually means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Most classes are utterly incapable of utilizing the stats on the Aasimar, the cleric being the one blatant example, and not everyone who wants to be an Aasimar wants to be a cleric.
Heck, my last Aasimar was a Paladin, I wanted to glow once a day, to basically let everyone know I've decided that the game is on, and I'm using everything in my power to kill my enemies..... well, I was playing a half-celestial, so I could claim being 5/8ths god. Sometimes saying stupid stuff like that appeals to me.
Finally: the characters only get the stuff that's under
Aasimar Characters
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.
So they don't get class levels in addition to everything else.
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Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.Emphasis mine.
Here are your papers citizen.
Please remember to breathe while on the prime material plane.
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Creative Director
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I don't follow. You can banish them to the Material Plane?
Yeah... just wait until you hit one with a 'holy word' or 'blasphemy' spell -- being outsider cuts both ways, and honestly I think it hurts much more than it helps.
As native outsiders, things that banish outsiders won't work on tieflings or aasimar unless they're not on the Material Plane. At which point, those effects also work on humanoids, of course.
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As native outsiders, things that banish outsiders won't work on tieflings or aasimar unless they're not on the Material Plane. At which point, those effects also work on humanoids, of course.I don't follow. You can banish them to the Material Plane?
Yeah... just wait until you hit one with a 'holy word' or 'blasphemy' spell -- being outsider cuts both ways, and honestly I think it hurts much more than it helps.
I'm curious: how would you run that if your players were on a Prime Material, just not theirs? For example, I had a character land in Eberron from Golarion, then get blasphemy'd by a colossal half-fiend Spider. We made every save, except the one to avoid being kicked off the plane.
That's what I thought James. I didn't think planetouched had it any worse when planeswalking. Thanks for the clarification.
Sorry I didn't explain what I meant well:
Lets say you have a tiefling is an evil creature (this particular one at least) and is in the middle of being evil when a cleric of good alignment decides to hit him (and his evil human buddy beside him) with a holy smite:
The human takes 1d8 per two caster levels and has to save to half the damage and avoid blindness.
However the tiefling on the other hand is an outsider... and he is evil -- which means he'll be taking 1d6 per caster level instead of the 1d8 per two caster levels the human is taking -- and to a higher maximum too (10 dice as opposed to 5 dice).
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I'm curious: how would you run that if your players were on a Prime Material, just not theirs? For example, I had a character land in Eberron from Golarion, then get blasphemy'd by a colossal half-fiend Spider. We made every save, except the one to avoid being kicked off the plane.
In my opinion prime material is prime material regardless of if its your prime material or not. Kind of like how each of the different levels of Hell are still all Hell.
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Creative Director
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I'm curious: how would you run that if your players were on a Prime Material, just not theirs? For example, I had a character land in Eberron from Golarion, then get blasphemy'd by a colossal half-fiend Spider. We made every save, except the one to avoid being kicked off the plane.As native outsiders, things that banish outsiders won't work on tieflings or aasimar unless they're not on the Material Plane. At which point, those effects also work on humanoids, of course.I don't follow. You can banish them to the Material Plane?
Yeah... just wait until you hit one with a 'holy word' or 'blasphemy' spell -- being outsider cuts both ways, and honestly I think it hurts much more than it helps.
There's only one Material Plane. The universe is big enough to hold pretty much every single campaign setting. So; don't need to handle it at all; someone from Golarion who goes to Eberron is still on their home plane.
The only implication there is that the GM would need to decide which outer plane model is right, and which one has people who have it all wrong. :-)
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Yeah! It's like they weren't even designed to be a PC race!
Personally I'd really love it if tiefs and aasimar had been built as PC races from the ground up in 3.x, since that's what they started out as in Planescape.*
But I don't think their problems are as bad as they used to be. Just wish they were humanoids rather than native outsiders.
*That and i wish 3.0 never described aasimar as universally blonde, fair-skinned, and bland. They really sold the potential variety of the race short.
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There's only one Material Plane. The universe is big enough to hold pretty much every single campaign setting. So; don't need to handle it at all; someone from Golarion who goes to Eberron is still on their home plane.
The only implication there is that the GM would need to decide which outer plane model is right, and which one has people who have it all wrong. :-)
Thank you and thank you Mr. Spalding. I didn't mind getting kicked off the plane, it is rare that I get to see that player freak out so much. The look on his face was priceless.
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But I don't think their problems are as bad as they used to be. Just wish they were humanoids rather than native outsiders.
Humanoid (extraplanar) would probably work better for that.
IMO, there have always been too many types.
Elemental should be a subtype of Outsider, and Vermin a subtype of Animal, IMO. Fey and Monstrous Humanoid should probably be subtypes of Humanoid.
3.5 got rid of the 'Beast' type, folding them into animals, and PF got rid of the Giant type, making them a subtype of Humanoid, but I think that this was just trimming some leaves from the over-design, rather than the harsher pruning it needed.