Don't forget there is also anarcho-trade-unionism (anarcho-communism) which recently evolved into libertarian-socialism (yes, they are compatible...) under the banner of the Pirate Parties.
I am not an expert on anarchist theory, but I believe anarcho-communism (which springs from the works of Pyotr Kropotkin) is slightly different than anarcho-syndicalism (anarchist trade unionism).
But I will have to look up the Pirate Party.
Thank you, comrade!
Pirate ideology is certainly not economic socialism. Rather it sees leftism vs rightism as a thought trap for the masses to focus on while authoritarian policies are being hammered through by the authoritarian elite. There are many who try to cast piratism as socialism, but that's because those people do not understand that the alternative to the current IP system is a vastly expanded public domain, not that the state owns the IP rightsinstead. Oh, and libertarianism, as old-school liberalism before the socialist progressive movement adopted the name liberal, does emphatically not work with socialism.
"Libertarian" is a word that some anarchists and socialists throw in front of socialism to distinguish themselves from Leninists (and, sometimes, Marxist). It shouldn't be confused with the usage of the term as employed by American Libertarians such as Ron Paul.
How the Pirate Party falls into all of this, though, I have no idea.
As a shop steward, though, I've often used a line from Pirates of the Caribbean: "Take everything you can and give nothing back!"
Hee hee!
Ahh, the tone is turning serious again, so it is time for me to take my leave.
Adieu Bolshegobbo. When the balloon goes up save a well-oiled Kalishnikov for me!
*blink*
You guys are pussies, but I offer you to join my neo-bolshevik party.
That's what we'll do after winning elections:
1. A Looong Night of Long Knives
2. Illegalization of every political party in the Congress, specially the neo-bolshevik party, prosecution of any surviving politician.
3. Announcement of elections the day after the elections, new parties .
4. Medals for anyone with the guts to start a new political party.
5. New Elections
6. Repeat
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't forget there is also anarcho-trade-unionism (anarcho-communism) which recently evolved into libertarian-socialism (yes, they are compatible...) under the banner of the Pirate Parties.
I am not an expert on anarchist theory, but I believe anarcho-communism (which springs from the works of Pyotr Kropotkin) is slightly different than anarcho-syndicalism (anarchist trade unionism).
But I will have to look up the Pirate Party.
Thank you, comrade!
You may very well be right, I am by no mean an expert myself.
But, hey, so close to Talk like a pirate day, I had to point out the Pirate Party. Arhhhg!
Ahh, the tone is turning serious again, so it is time for me to take my leave.
Adieu Bolshegobbo. When the balloon goes up save a well-oiled Kalishnikov for me!
*blink*
Dasvadanya, tovasisch!
The class struggle just got a whole lot sexier.
The class struggle just got a whole lot sexier.
I realized some time ago that I'm not separate from nature just because I have a primate brain - an upper brain - because underneath the primate brain, there's a mammalian brain, and beneath the mammalian brain, there's a reptilian brain; and it's those two lower brains that made the upper brain possible in the first place.
Here's the way it works: The primate brain says, "Give peace a chance." The mammalian brain says, "Give peace a chance, but first let's kill this m@###@#&+*+~." And the reptilian brain says, "Let's just kill the m$+~$%%$&!~#, go to the peace rally and get laid."
Here's the way it works: The primate brain says, "Give peace a chance." The mammalian brain says, "Give peace a chance, but first let's kill this m!+&&*$##~$&." And the reptilian brain says, "Let's just kill the m$++&!$$@@~*, go to the peace rally and get laid."
Hee hee!
|
Socialism is, essentially, the tendency inherent in an industrial civilization to transcend the self-regulating market by consciously subordinating it to a democratic society...From the point of view of the community as a whole, socialism is merely the continuation of that endeavor to make society a distinctly human relationship of persons which in Western Europe was always associated with Christian traditions.
Versus
"We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth."
(Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 117)"[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist." (Ibid. n. 120)
Comrade, agree? disagree? discuss?
I learned pretty quickly on these boards not to talk too much about religion, but since you ask:
There is a long tradition of Christian Socialism (both words capitalized because that's what they call themselves), but I'm a Marxist, and, yeah, ideologically speaking Christianity and Marxism are pretty irreconcilable, so I'm down with the Pontifex Maximus there.
Traditionally, the Marxist movement called for the separation of church and state and proclaimed that religion should be a private matter. I've never actually researched the fate of the Russian Orthodox Church during my favorite years of the Bolshevik Revolution (1917-1924), but the Stalinists alternately persecuted the faithful or used the Church as a reactionary prop in their attempts to regiment the population--particularly in matter of the family and sexual freedom. Outside of the Soviet Union, I remain pretty ignorant of state-church relationships, but I bet it's pretty safe to guess that they didn't pursue the original Marxist program on religion.
As for Karl Polyani's quotation (and I don't know who he is), I am skeptical of the whole second sentence. First, I'm not certain exactly what a "distinctly human relationship of persons" is: To my thinking, for example, the Roman Empire under Caligula or the Horde under Genghis Khan is just as much a human relationship of persons, as any other society. Also, I don't understand how Christianity could ever be considered as such when its whole premise is man's relationship to God, who, unless I'm mistaken, is not human.
Actually, come to think of it, I pretty strongly disagree with his first sentence, too. Whoever, this Mr. Polyani is, I'm guessing he's not much of a Marxist.
Aaargh!
You changed the question while I was composing my answer!
All that wasted effort!
|
|
His big work was The Great Transformation. His wife was a communist, he was a christian socialist I believe.
He's definitely a post-marxist thinker, but I think his work can be usefully deployed against arguments for laissez faire economies.
|
|
Also, I don't understand how Christianity could ever be considered as such when its whole premise is man's relationship to God, who, unless I'm mistaken, is not human.
Well, something like the english common law concept of negligence which draws explicitly from the parable of the good samaritan and love thy neighbour. Christian ideas being harnessed to regulate relationships between people that previously weren't recognized.
I'll try to dig up the quote by Lord Atkin its probably up on wikipedia.
Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v._Stevenson
Likewise the law of equity, the second pillar of the common law world's legal system, is effectively the law of christian conscience and morals - it tempers the hard and cruel workings of the common law.
It's all about man's relationship to other men.
|
how about socialism as an extension of an on going process to subject the market economy to the rule of the state?
As with most things socialist, in my opinion it looks good on paper but does not work on large scale. You might get away with a a small scale socialist economy but when you get to a State level. By state I mean anything larger than a moderate size city, I feel it breaks down. Of course I see that most economic forms have varying degrees of usefulness.
THIS JUST IN:
Comrade Anklebiter's favorite hockey team is the Washington Capitals!
More news at 11.
I wonder how long I could get away with my Monarchist Christian Socialism thread...
BTW, Comrade, the relationship b/n the Reds and the Orthodox Church was pretty clear -- on the whole, overall -- in the years of Party dominance. I have a good friend whose dad was the head of the CIA in his part of the country growing up. As justice would have it, my friend is now an Orthodox cleric.
:D
I don't follow sports and I thought I laid out pretty unequivocally what the relationship between the Stalinist bureaucracy and the Orthodox church was: one day they would persecute the faithful, the next they would use it to bolster themselves, for example during World War II.
Hey, Ankie, may I join the Galtan revolution too?
We had partial elections last week, and the french senate has now a socialist majority for the first time ever.
As for Pie XII, he is known as the most far-right leaning pope of the last century, with strong sympathies toward authoritarian states (you know, like the Nazis, or even better the fascisto-religious state instituted by Franco in Spain). At the time and in his mouth, 'socialist' meant 'godless bolshevik with a knife in his mouth to better eviscerate monks'.
All of his successors were strongly pro-regulation and pro-welfare state.
Full disclosure: no, I'm not a catholic...
I don't follow sports and I thought I laid out pretty unequivocally what the relationship between the Stalinist bureaucracy and the Orthodox church was: one day they would persecute the faithful, the next they would use it to bolster themselves, for example during World War II.
Hmm. I wrote this before I was fully awake and I'd delete it if I could. This time, I'd write:
I wonder how long I could get away with my Monarchist Christian Socialism thread...
You'll never know until you try.
I have a good friend...Orthodox cleric.
That's interesting, I had two comrades, a brother-and-sister team, whose parents were Orthodox missionaries in China and grew up to be professional Trotskyist activists. I guess they cancel each other out.
Anyway, yeah, the Stalinists persecuted a lot of people. They suck.
Hey, Ankie, may I join the Galtan revolution too?
Welcome, Comrade!
Your first assignment as a member of the Commonwealth Party of Galt (Marxist-Leninist) is to STOP voting for the party of Mitterand and DSK. They sold out all the way back in 1914 and I hates them. Go join Lutte Ouvriere or the Ligue trotskyiste de France or the Ligue Communiste Revolutionnaire or something like that. (Caveat: I'm just throwing out far left French groups, I don't actually know what LO or LCR's programs are.)
I do know who Pius XII was, but I am a godless Bolshevik, and I think it's pretty uncontroversial that Marxism and Catholicism don't mix all that well.
As for other brands of quasi-"socialism" (bah! revisionist swine!), they may or may not mix with Christianity or other forms of obscurantism (official Marxist terminology for religion), but that's not what I'm all about. I'm all about the Marx-Engels-Lenin-Liebknecht-Luxemburg-Trotsky connection! Tax the churches and overthrow the bourgeoisie!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your first assignment as a member of the Commonwealth Party of Galt (Marxist-Leninist) is to STOP voting for the party of Mitterand and DSK. They sold out all the way back in 1914 and I hates them. Go join Lutte Ouvriere or the Ligue trotskyiste de France or the Ligue Communiste Revolutionnaire or something like that. (Caveat: I'm just throwing out far left French groups, I don't actually know what LO or LCR's programs are.)
Congratulations, you did your homework (google?). You also have "le Parti de Gauche" (leftist party) based on an alliance between the vintage communists and a guy who left the socialists because they were "spineless, tepid-tea drinkers" (his terms). I love him: he is always on treat on TV, as he is fond of smashing journalists as sold-out lackeys. Quite a character.
But he doesn't stand a chance running for president, so my main objective is to oust next year our current pres', who was one of a very tiny handful of politicos openly pro-Bush and pro-war back in 2003. Quite visionary, isn't he ?
I just joined and I'm already ignoring you and setting up a minority branch. Quite typical of leftist parties, no?
I just joined and I'm already ignoring you and setting up a minority branch. Quite typical of leftist parties, no?
Sectarian splitter!
No, I didn't look up any French commie groups (well, I did doublecheck my spelling) on the internet--I drew on the vast reservoirs of commie knowledge that comes from a decade in the Trotskyist movement. Say what you will about revolutionary socialists, they make you read...a lot!
Quick on the bus question: Occupy wall street and similar movements - why has there been so little leadership, education and support for the youth? The only proper intellectual I've heard of actually going down there is joseph stiglitz and he doesn't strike me a Marxist or even socialist.
If we use a wider definition of "proper intellectual," or, maybe substitute the term "celebrity": we've got: Michael Moore, Chris Hedges, Cornel West and Susan Sarandon. Noam Chomsky has voiced his approval and I think was at Occupy Boston, but he's pretty old so I don't imagine he's going to be spending lots of time on the streets.
Anyway, who gives a shiznit about the intellectuals?
Also, while most of the corporate media coverage has been pretty crappy (surprise, surprise) I must say that Russia Today's footage has been awesome.
|
|
Quick on the bus question: Occupy wall street and similar movements - why has there been so little leadership, education and support for the youth? The only proper intellectual I've heard of actually going down there is joseph stiglitz and he doesn't strike me a Marxist or even socialist.If we use a wider definition of "proper intellectual," or, maybe substitute the term "celebrity": we've got: Michael Moore, Chris Hedges, Cornel West and Susan Sarandon. Noam Chomsky has voiced his approval and I think was at Occupy Boston, but he's pretty old so I don't imagine he's going to be spending lots of time on the streets.
Anyway, who gives a shiznit about the intellectuals?
Also, while most of the corporate media coverage has been pretty crappy (surprise, surprise) I must say that Russia Today's footage has been awesome.
I'll retract the proper intellectual and substitute in:
"someone like a marx, gramsci, lenin, trotsky". Somebody on the street, getting arrested and speaking to folks on the buses and in the cells. People getting their hands dirty instead of just showing up, mugging for the cameras and going home. It seems to me that a golden oportunity is being missed.
Perhaps it is going on and it just hasn't been covered. The coverage has been, as you said, terrible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just joined and I'm already ignoring you and setting up a minority branch. Quite typical of leftist parties, no?Sectarian splitter!
No, I didn't look up any French commie groups (well, I did doublecheck my spelling) on the internet--I drew on the vast reservoirs of commie knowledge that comes from a decade in the Trotskyist movement. Say what you will about revolutionary socialists, they make you read...a lot!
Agreed, and sorry about my Google comment. I do know that the trotskysts are deadly serious about political education (comes with the political awareness package). I didn't mean to sound dismissive of your knowledge.
Even if it's a bit dated: the LCR morphed in 2007 into the NPA (New Anticapitalist Party) and ended up getting 5% of votes in the european elections of 2008. Not a small feat for a suposedly "fringe" party.
If you add up the scores of the 5 (no less) communist parties that ran for president in 2007, you get something like 9%. With a participation of 83,77%, that means that something like 7,5% of the adult population of France shares your ideas. Care to emigrate? We have hot goblin chicks too.
Perhaps it is going on and it just hasn't been covered. The coverage has been, as you said, terrible.
Russia Today is just a mouse-click away!
In particular, Alyona Minkovski makes my pinko heart go pitter-patter...
Agreed, and sorry about my Google comment. I do know that the trotskysts are deadly serious about political education (comes with the political awareness package). I didn't mean to sound dismissive of your knowledge.Even if it's a bit dated: the LCR morphed in 2007 into the NPA (New Anticapitalist Party) and ended up getting 5% of votes in the european elections of 2008. Not a small feat for a suposedly "fringe" party.
If you add up the scores of the 5 (no less) communist parties that ran for president in 2007, you get something like 9%. With a participation of 83,77%, that means that something like 7,5% of the adult population of France shares your ideas. Care to emigrate? We have hot goblin chicks too.
Oh, no worries, I didn't mean to sound defensive. Sometimes when I run into people on here, they don't believe I am serious about my politics because I tell jokes at the same time that I shout "Smash capital!"
And, yeah, I'm sure it is dated--2004ish was around the time I downshifted from active sympathizer to just standing on the sidelines (and, coincidentally, around the same time my interest in fantasy role-playing games was rekindled). I put my toe back in the water of the class struggle around 2008 in the much more tepid waters of trade-union organizing but with all the crazy shiznit that's been going down globally for the past year or so, I'm probably going to jump back in.
Thanks for the invite, but I think I'll stay here in the United States. To paraphrase Che, it's important for revolutionaries to continue the struggle in the belly of the imperialist beast.
Anyway, enough about me: how are all the comrades doing?
|
|
Perhaps it is going on and it just hasn't been covered. The coverage has been, as you said, terrible.
Russia Today is just a mouse-click away!
In particular, Alyona Minkovski makes my pinko heart go pitter-patter...
Heh maybe you really should consider moving to france, have you seen their news readers?
Imho, Boston, Massachusetts has the most beautiful women in the world. Mostly, of course, because the world rounds them up and sends them there for college. Also, I don't speak French.
Imho, Boston, Massachusetts has the most beautiful women in the world. Mostly, of course, because the world rounds them up and sends them there for college. Also, I don't speak French.
I may not agree with your politics, but I agree with this statement 100%
As Steely Dan once sang:
'Sweet things from Boston,
So young and willing..'. =D
Imho, Boston, Massachusetts has the most beautiful women in the world. Mostly, of course, because the world rounds them up and sends them there for college. Also, I don't speak French.I may not agree with your politics, but I agree with this statement 100%
As Steely Dan once sang:
'Sweet things from Boston,
So young and willing..'. =D
Hey CC,
Did you see that there's finally a PFS Venture-Captain for Boston? Yay! I am stuck in Yahoo groups limbo trying to create an account (why can't they just send s@~@ to my hotmail account?!?--don't they know I'm a crypto-Luddite?!?) but I've finally got a chance to get in on some hot Lodge action!
Are goblin paladins Society legal yet?
Hey CC,
Did you see that there's finally a PFS Venture-Captain for Boston? Yay! I am stuck in Yahoo groups limbo trying to create an account (why can't they just send s*!~ to my hotmail account?!?--don't they know I'm a crypto-Luddite?!?) but I've finally got a chance to get in on some hot Lodge action!
Are goblin paladins Society legal yet?
Meh. Clubs, rules and meetings aren't really my bag. I'm too busy to even keep my half-dozen PbPs updated =P
Meh. Clubs, rules and meetings aren't really my bag. I'm too busy to even keep my half-dozen PbPs updated =P
Clubs? Rules? Meetings? I thought we just showed up and played D&D!
I have been the de facto DM of my group for years now, and, frankly, I'm sick of it...I want to play, dammit! Also, I think it'd be fun to meet all of my new New England internet friends.
Hmmm. Verry tempting. Perhaps I can find some time, as lOng as it isn't too far. =D
|
I wonder how long I could get away with my Monarchist Christian Socialism thread...
BTW, Comrade, the relationship b/n the Reds and the Orthodox Church was pretty clear -- on the whole, overall -- in the years of Party dominance. I have a good friend whose dad was the head of the CIA in his part of the country growing up. As justice would have it, my friend is now an Orthodox cleric.
:D
I for one would support such a measure. Of course, no one* knows what that actually is, so it'd just be a bunch of people pretending to know what it actually is posting about stuff they are pretending to actually know.
|
|
Quick on the bus question: Occupy wall street and similar movements - why has there been so little leadership, education and support for the youth? The only proper intellectual I've heard of actually going down there is joseph stiglitz and he doesn't strike me a Marxist or even socialist.If we use a wider definition of "proper intellectual," or, maybe substitute the term "celebrity": we've got: Michael Moore, Chris Hedges, Cornel West and Susan Sarandon. Noam Chomsky has voiced his approval and I think was at Occupy Boston, but he's pretty old so I don't imagine he's going to be spending lots of time on the streets.
Anyway, who gives a shiznit about the intellectuals?
Also, while most of the corporate media coverage has been pretty crappy (surprise, surprise) I must say that Russia Today's footage has been awesome.
I heard about this on the bourgeoisie (fr?) radio. They were talking about some direct democracy thing where people take forever to decide whether or not to buy sleeping bags. I dunno much about it, but it just sounded like sensationalism (the radio more than the people doing it).
A fun shot for you Comrade
I think I know her...
What what what?!?
Somebody's talking about dialectical materialism, and it's NOT in this thread?
Quantity becomes quality!
Heroes of Revolutionary Socialism, Part Two
Please note that in order to be a hero of RS, it is not, in fact, necessary that you be a socialist, although it certainly helps if you're revolutionary.
And now, I'll turn the floor over to John Milton, Internet Troll:
To the Lord General Cromwell, on the Proposals of Certain Ministers at the Committee for the Propagation of the Gospel
Cromwell, our chief of men, who through a cloud
Not of war only, but detractions rude,
Guided by faith and matchless fortitude,
To peace and truth thy glorious way hast ploughed,
And on the neck of crowned Fortune proud
Hast reared God's trophies, and his work pursued
While Darwen streams, with blood of Scots imbrued,
And Dunbar field, resounds thy praises loud.
And Worcester's laureate wreath: yet much remains
To conquer still; Peace hath her victories
No less renowned than War: new foes arise,
Threatening to bind our souls with secular chains.
Help us to save free conscience from the paw
Of hireling wolves, whose Gospel is their maw.
|
|
http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-Other-Revolutionary-Writings/dp/0 486424650
I might have already posted this book. You can usually pick this book up for a few dollars at used bookstores near campuses. It's a pretty good collection.
Table of contents
JEAN-JACQUES ROUSSEAU: Preface and Part 2, Discourse on the Origins and Foundations of Inequality
VOLTAIRE: "Policy"
THOMAS JEFFERSON: A Summary View of the Rights of British America
THOMAS PAINE: Appendix to Common Sese
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Declaration of Independence
CAMILLE DESMOULINS: "Live Free or Die"
EMMANUEL JOSEPH SIEYÈS: Preface and Chapter 1, What Is the Third Estate?
THIRD ESTATE: Decree upon the National Assembly
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF FRANCE: The Tennis Count Oath
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF FRANCE: The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen
JEAN PAUL MARAT: "Are We Undone?"
THOMAS PAINE: From Conclusion to Part 1, The Rights of Man
GEORGES JACQUES DANTON: "Dare, Dare Again, Always Dare"
PIERRE-SYLVAIN MARÉCHAL: Manifesto of the Equals
F. N. BABEUF: "Analysis of the Doctrine of Babeuf"
ROBERT OWEN: "The Legacy of Robert Owen to the Population of the World"
PIERRE-JOSEPH PROUDHON: Chapter 1, What Is Property?
MARX AND ENGELS: The Manifesto of the Communist Party
MARX AND ENGELS: Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League
FERDINAND LASSALLE: "The Working Man's Programme"
PETER KROPOTKIN: "An Appeal to the Young"
MIKHAIL BAKUNIN: From God and the State
V. I. LENIN: "May Day"
LEON TROTSKY: "The Proletariat and the Revolution"
LEON TROTSKY: "The Events in St. Petersburg"
EMMA GOLDMAN: "The Tragegy of Women's Emancipation"
LEON TROTSKY ET AL.: The Zimmerwald Manifesto
V. I. LENIN: "The Tasks of the Proletariat in the Present Revolution [The April Theses]"
ROSA LUXEMBURG ET AL.: A Call to the Workers of the World
V. I. LENIN AND THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT: "Declaration of Rights of the Working and Exploited People"
MOHANDAS K. GANDHI: Ahmedabad Speech
PETER KROPOTKIN: "The Russian Revolution and the Soviet Government"
MOHANDAS K. GANDHI: "Satyagraha (Noncoöperation)"
MAO ZEDONG: Manifesto of the Chinese People's Liberation Army [October 10th Manifesto]
CHE GUEVARA: "Colonialism is Doomed"
VACLAV HAVEL, JAN PATOCKA, ET AL.: Charter 77