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Mounts for Cavaliers in PFS


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Cheliax **

Hello there! Now, I have a cavalier character I had a question over. It says that, under the cavalier class, a medium cavalier requires to have a horse or a camel. But what if I wanted something a little more "exotic"? Are there any rules saying I can't make a griffon my mount, providing I have the gold and the saddle? I was thinking of doing so, and while I understand that I can't use it in most situations, I'd still like one. right now he is 9th level, and has a nice stockpile of cash that I can spend, so that isn't much of a problem.

d20pfsrd.com wrote:
A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.

***

Yes, if you are medium you can only have a horse or a camel. Only paladins get cool mounts. Because Cavalier isn't a real mounted class or anything. :)

Cheliax **

Kaz from the Taldor Shores wrote:
Yes, if you are medium you can only have a horse or a camel. Only paladins get cool mounts. Because Cavalier isn't a real mounted class or anything. :)

Hm. What if I was a 5th level paladin with a few levels of Cavalier? would it be possible to take my paladin's Griffon and use that as my Cavalier mount or no?

And, in a related subject, is it possible to to use a Figurine of Wondress Power (Bronze Griffon) as my bonded mount with a paladin? When it is activated, it says that it is a griffon, in every sense of the word, that just doesn't stick around forever.

***

Nanomd wrote:
Kaz from the Taldor Shores wrote:
Yes, if you are medium you can only have a horse or a camel. Only paladins get cool mounts. Because Cavalier isn't a real mounted class or anything. :)

Hm. What if I was a 5th level paladin with a few levels of Cavalier? would it be possible to take my paladin's Griffon and use that as my Cavalier mount or no?

And, in a related subject, is it possible to to use a Figurine of Wondress Power (Bronze Griffon) as my bonded mount with a paladin? When it is activated, it says that it is a griffon, in every sense of the word, that just doesn't stick around forever.

They would stack in theory. I do not see a problem with that however at that point you might as well stick with paladin. As far as the wondrous figurine goes, there is a feat that lets you do exactly that. Without it, you need a real life animal for your mount.

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just a point, I am almost positive that a Paladin's mount needs to be an animal. A griffon is a magical beast which means they can't be Paldin Mounts in PFS.

Cheliax **

Dragnmoon wrote:
Just a point, I am almost positive that a Paladin's mount needs to be an animal. A griffon is a magical beast which means they can't be Paldin Mounts in PFS.

Given how few PFS modules allow a medium-size Cavalier to use his mount...

Cheliax **

Dragnmoon wrote:
Just a point, I am almost positive that a Paladin's mount needs to be an animal. A griffon is a magical beast which means they can't be Paldin Mounts in PFS.

There is actually nothing in the Paladin rules which state you must have an animal. In fact, there is something which conteracts the exact point you are trying to make at 11th level. It says it gains the Celestial Creature template and becomes a magical beast. To some, I can understand where this could imply that it isn't before. But to me, it implies that you have access to magical beasts, but you aren't going to be penalized for not having one because your horse will become one. Either side of the coin is a valid arguement, but I'm sticking to my side.

Andoran *****

Thats fine that you want to stick to your side of the arguement. With PFS though, its GM discretion (at least right now). Personally, id shoot you down, unless you can show me something official saying otherwise.

Andoran ***** Venture-Captain, Minnesota—St. Paul

Nanomd wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Just a point, I am almost positive that a Paladin's mount needs to be an animal. A griffon is a magical beast which means they can't be Paldin Mounts in PFS.
There is actually nothing in the Paladin rules which state you must have an animal. In fact, there is something which conteracts the exact point you are trying to make at 11th level. It says it gains the Celestial Creature template and becomes a magical beast. To some, I can understand where this could imply that it isn't before. But to me, it implies that you have access to magical beasts, but you aren't going to be penalized for not having one because your horse will become one. Either side of the coin is a valid arguement, but I'm sticking to my side.

This discussion was had on another thread.

If you read the paladin Divine Bond power carefully, you will see that

Quote:
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it.

So it doesn't actually become a magical beast.

If the rules don't say you can do it, in PFS you can't. This is a general rule I'd go with when trying to create your character.

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are a couple things at play here:

1) The ability to stack class levels for determining the power one one's animal companion currently only available to the druid class. The paladin's "Divine Bond" and cavalier's "mount" ability do not fall into this category. Maybe someday this will be clarified to also benefit other classes, but currently to my knowledge, there is so much ruling.

2) What Andrew has written is correct about the Paladin, and if you go through Jason's infamous blog post from a few months back, this is clarified. A paladin divine bond is always only an animal - while it may gain the magical beast description, it is still "just" an animal.

3) The rules for PFS are clear, medium sized cavaliers can ride either a horse or camel. This is addressed in multiple threads beyond this one.

There is a lot of flexibility allowed in a home game that is not permissible at a PFS table. While many GMs would consider allowing more exotic mounts, and perhaps even ignoring that the rulebook currently only allows for animal companion stacking, that is not the case in PFS. We are beholden to the rules outlined by RAW and the set of additional rules outlined by Hyrum, Mark, and their predecessor. While every PFS GM is different, if and when you meet the GM that calls you on this rule, don't be surprised if your desired interpretation of the rules is vetoed.

**

If I recall correctly, there is a "Beastrider" archtype for cavalier coming up in Ultimate Combat. This may well give a nice PFS legal route for the exotic mounts people so crave.

*

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
If I recall correctly, there is a "Beastrider" archtype for cavalier coming up in Ultimate Combat. This may well give a nice PFS legal route for the exotic mounts people so crave.

Going Druid 1/Cavalier X is also a legal way to do this, though you lose 1 BAB and are a level behind on Cav class features. The saves and the ability to use druid wands might make up for that, though.

Andoran ***** Venture-Captain, Minnesota—St. Paul

Omelite wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
If I recall correctly, there is a "Beastrider" archtype for cavalier coming up in Ultimate Combat. This may well give a nice PFS legal route for the exotic mounts people so crave.
Going Druid 1/Cavalier X is also a legal way to do this, though you lose 1 BAB and are a level behind on Cav class features. The saves and the ability to use druid wands might make up for that, though.

I disagree. Just because you have an animal companion does not mean you can make that animal companion your mount.

Andoran *

Andrew Christian wrote:
Omelite wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
If I recall correctly, there is a "Beastrider" archtype for cavalier coming up in Ultimate Combat. This may well give a nice PFS legal route for the exotic mounts people so crave.
Going Druid 1/Cavalier X is also a legal way to do this, though you lose 1 BAB and are a level behind on Cav class features. The saves and the ability to use druid wands might make up for that, though.
I disagree. Just because you have an animal companion does not mean you can make that animal companion your mount.

I agree here. The Druid class companion would not count as your mount for the abilities of the cavalier. You can ride it still, but would not gain the benefits of the cavalier class

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Nanomd wrote:
Hello there! Now, I have a cavalier character I had a question over. It says that, under the cavalier class, a medium cavalier requires to have a horse or a camel. But what if I wanted something a little more "exotic"? Are there any rules saying I can't make a griffon my mount, providing I have the gold and the saddle?

Yes the rules in the class description that restrict you to horse or camel. If you take a mount from another class feature your cavalier bonuses will not work on that mount unless it's a horse or camel.

Andoran ***** Venture-Captain, Minnesota—St. Paul

LazarX wrote:
Nanomd wrote:
Hello there! Now, I have a cavalier character I had a question over. It says that, under the cavalier class, a medium cavalier requires to have a horse or a camel. But what if I wanted something a little more "exotic"? Are there any rules saying I can't make a griffon my mount, providing I have the gold and the saddle?
Yes the rules in the class description that restrict you to horse or camel. If you take a mount from another class feature your cavalier bonuses will not work on that mount unless it's a horse or camel.

In a home game, however, an appropriately sized companion that common sense says could be ridden, I would probably allow it.

But, PFS uses the RAW.

Taldor *

So what I'm taking from this my Beast Rider Cavalier 4 Paladin 5 (Mount Bond)'s levels wouldn't stack for the mount class feature. What if the animal is on both lists say a horse or a mammoth through Mammoth Rider PrC? If not, are there any magic items that would allow large or larger mounts to go through the infamous 5 foot wide hallway, say through teleportation or plane shifting? Please let me know asap because my Beast Rider Emissary Cavalier is level 4 and shooting for Mammoth Rider so I want to know if those 5 more levels should be Cavalier or Paladin.

P.S. I know that they're kind of repetitive but charging and killing things on the surprise round while still being the party diplomat/liar/intimidator-all-wrapped-into-one-package never gets old.

***

Lanliss Narses of Merrioc wrote:
...are there any magic items that would allow large or larger mounts to go through the infamous 5 foot wide hallway, say through teleportation or plane shifting?

Not sure about the mount stacking, but a Large size creature can squeeze through a 5ft space

PRD wrote:

Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Nanomd wrote:

Hello there! Now, I have a cavalier character I had a question over. It says that, under the cavalier class, a medium cavalier requires to have a horse or a camel. But what if I wanted something a little more "exotic"? Are there any rules saying I can't make a griffon my mount, providing I have the gold and the saddle? I was thinking of doing so, and while I understand that I can't use it in most situations, I'd still like one. right now he is 9th level, and has a nice stockpile of cash that I can spend, so that isn't much of a problem.

You want to expand your mount options, your only choice is the Beast Rider archetype. You are limited to what the archetype will give your character.

Spoiler:
If you play the complete Edge of Perfection series, you'll get one other mount option.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Lanliss Narses of Merrioc wrote:
If not, are there any magic items that would allow large or larger mounts to go through the infamous 5 foot wide hallway, say through teleportation or plane shifting?

I'll address this part, as there are plenty of options.

1. Knights of the Inner Sea introduces the spell carry companion which will let you carry your mount in as a statuette. You of course need the sourcebook to cast this spell. Link

2. Hosteling armor (Ultimate Equipment) armor property will let you store your mount in it until you need it. Will be forever be known as the pokeball enchantment.

3. Paladin mounts can be summoned as a full-round action 1/day (more later). They appear next to you.

PRD wrote:
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin's level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin.

4. Simplest way, you have your mount squeeze the 5' hallway until it's clear... (redward ninja'd above)

***

LazarX wrote:


You want to expand your mount options, your only choice is the Beast Rider archetype. You are limited to what the archetype will give your character.

Please note that with a Medium Beast Rider, you won't get an exotic mount until level 7, regardless of companion stacking.

Andoran *****

The levels of the mounts should stack just like if you’d taken a level of Druid.

However, one class won’t open up more animal options than the other class. You go with the most restrictive list of options for what your mount can be.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

redward wrote:
Please note that with a Medium Beast Rider, you won't get an exotic mount until level 7, regardless of companion stacking.

incorrect. you can choose a more exotic mount as a 4th level Beast Rider. at 7th level Medium riders just gain any animal available as an animal companion, and get to size it up to Large for them to ride ( like the usually non existant Large Bear animal companion )

cavalier wrote:
The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
beast rider wrote:

The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).

...

Small-sized beast riders can choose a pony or wolf mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Small beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, boar, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, mastodon, megaloceros, riding dog, snapping turtle (giant), triceratops, or tyrannosaurus. At 7th level, he can also choose a dinosaur (deinonychus or velociraptor).

Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, snapping turtle (giant), tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.

***

All of the options presented to Medium characters at level 4 are Medium sized, and therefore ineligible as mounts.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

I think you're both saying the same thing - almost.
Confusion on this point - "mount" does not necessarily mean something that can be ridden as far as beast rider is concerned.

Simple wordplay: at 4th level a medium sized beast rider can get some exotic beasts as animal companions; ironically, they're size medium so can't be ridden until level 7, when they become size large.

That work?

Andoran *****

Walter Sheppard wrote:

I think you're both saying the same thing - almost.

Confusion on this point - "mount" does not necessarily mean something that can be ridden as far as beast rider is concerned.

Simple wordplay: at 4th level a medium sized beast rider can get some exotic beasts as animal companions; ironically, they're size medium so can't be ridden until level 7, when they become size large.

That work?

This.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

oh they're dinosaurs, so i didn't bother to actually look at their stats since i've never played one. The fact that they can have them at 4th but can't ride them until 7th didn't occur to me.

Thats just bad writing on the author's part. They should have given access to some Large exotic mounts that they could legitimately ride at 4th level.

Though i guess for dungeon delves its actually more handy to have a medium creature with you for a while. =D

***

Walter Sheppard wrote:

I think you're both saying the same thing - almost.

Confusion on this point - "mount" does not necessarily mean something that can be ridden as far as beast rider is concerned.

Simple wordplay: at 4th level a medium sized beast rider can get some exotic beasts as animal companions; ironically, they're size medium so can't be ridden until level 7, when they become size large.

That work?

I agree. The devs do not. You can't select a mount you can't ride.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

redward wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:

I think you're both saying the same thing - almost.

Confusion on this point - "mount" does not necessarily mean something that can be ridden as far as beast rider is concerned.

Simple wordplay: at 4th level a medium sized beast rider can get some exotic beasts as animal companions; ironically, they're size medium so can't be ridden until level 7, when they become size large.

That work?

I agree. The devs do not. You can't select a mount you can't ride.

Oh wow. That's eyeopening. Super bummer.

I should probably continue reading threads after I post in them :P

Glad I don't have a cavalier...

EDIT: I read through that thread again, redward. I don't feel bad anymore for not keeping up with that discussion; it got moved to another board and I didn't even notice >.<

**

Seraphimpunk wrote:
redward wrote:
Please note that with a Medium Beast Rider, you won't get an exotic mount until level 7, regardless of companion stacking.

incorrect. you can choose a more exotic mount as a 4th level Beast Rider. at 7th level Medium riders just gain any animal available as an animal companion, and get to size it up to Large for them to ride ( like the usually non existant Large Bear animal companion )

cavalier wrote:
The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
beast rider wrote:

The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).

...

Small-sized beast riders can choose a pony or wolf mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Small beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, boar, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, mastodon, megaloceros, riding dog, snapping turtle (giant), triceratops, or tyrannosaurus. At 7th level, he can also choose a dinosaur (deinonychus or velociraptor).

Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, snapping turtle (giant), tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.

Actually, you cannot ride most of the dinosaurs, ever, as they are 2 legged. So no allasaurus for you!

This archtype is one of the few that contradicts itself greatly in several places. It also provides a mechanism for medium cavaliers to ride a lot of different animals at level 7, but not one for small characters.

In fact, at level 7, small riders get 0 new mounts as the deinonychus is illegal as a mount.

Andoran *****

Where do you read that the animal has to be 4-legged to be a suitable mount?

Two-legged lizard/dinosaurs are a staple of fantasy mounts in both literature and art.

**

Andrew Christian wrote:

Where do you read that the animal has to be 4-legged to be a suitable mount?

Two-legged lizard/dinosaurs are a staple of fantasy mounts in both literature and art.

"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Furious Kender wrote:
"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."

My guess is that line only applies to this part: "at 7th level Medium riders just gain any animal available as an animal companion, and get to size it up to Large for them to ride ( like the usually non existant Large Bear animal companion )"

the ones explicitly in the list should be fine.

Andoran *****

Furious Kender wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

Where do you read that the animal has to be 4-legged to be a suitable mount?

Two-legged lizard/dinosaurs are a staple of fantasy mounts in both literature and art.

"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."

Wow, some people just read way too much into things.

Either a player who tries to say they can do something because it is not explicitly verboten or a GM who says you can’t do something because of misapplication of language.

I believe though, you are being facetious in what you are saying?

In this case, the clause you quoted is in the paragraph referring to picking a mount that doesn’t already have animal companion stats. Otherwise, if the animal is written into one of the lists above this clause, then this clause obviously doesn’t apply to that animal.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Axebeak is available to some characters, is large at 4th level, 2 legged, and an otherwise legal mount regardless of your archetype. Its kind of bonkers that the only legal exotic 4th level large mount is an animal that's not listed on the Beast Rider list, but is granted through PFS adventures.

its weird to think that it would be invalidated by the wording on a class feature that is trying to specifically expand your list of mounts.

***

Seraphimpunk wrote:

Axebeak is available to some characters, is large at 4th level, 2 legged, and an otherwise legal mount regardless of your archetype. Its kind of bonkers that the only legal exotic 4th level large mount is an animal that's not listed on the Beast Rider list, but is granted through PFS adventures.

its weird to think that it would be invalidated by the wording on a class feature that is trying to specifically expand your list of mounts.

It is weird, but it has been explicitly confirmed. And that's why I think the Beast Rider archetype is a trap as written.

**

Andrew Christian wrote:
Furious Kender wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

Where do you read that the animal has to be 4-legged to be a suitable mount?

Two-legged lizard/dinosaurs are a staple of fantasy mounts in both literature and art.

"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."

Wow, some people just read way too much into things.

Either a player who tries to say they can do something because it is not explicitly verboten or a GM who says you can’t do something because of misapplication of language.

I believe though, you are being facetious in what you are saying?

In this case, the clause you quoted is in the paragraph referring to picking a mount that doesn’t already have animal companion stats. Otherwise, if the animal is written into one of the lists above this clause, then this clause obviously doesn’t apply to that animal.

I want to agree with you, but in explaining why the list of suitable mounts contains illegal mounts, Mike Brock states that

"Yes, the beast rider archetype (UC page 36) offers Medium riders extra animal companion choices, and at that level some of those cavalier's companions will be Medium rather than Large. But at the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule still applies."

And part of the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule is "A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)." This is included in a seperate paragraph from the previous one, and just like the two following paragraphs, it appears to refer to the whole class feature.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

yar. no bonus, no benefit, until 7th level, and only good then if you're a Medium creature, or a small one that wants to ride one of the specifically granted mounts.

though it doesn't prohibit many archetype combinations, so i don't see the harm of the trap. just no benefit to it until 7th level for medium creatures. which is sad.

With the Mammoth Rider prestige class, at 10th level a regular cavalier without the Beast Rider archetype can obtain a Huge { Arsinoitherium, aurochs, baluchitherium, camel, cat (big), elk, horse, mastodon (elephant), megaloceros, rhinoceros, triceratops, wolf, or woolly mammoth (use stats for a mastodon). } invalidating the Beast Rider archetype for those cases, as the cavalier can retrain Expert Trainer class feature or take an archetype that would normally not be compatible with Beast Rider. And mammoth rider doesn't differentiate between Small and Medium cavaliers.

( though, what a Large cavalier like a Troll would do, would probably break the mind of most developers )

Andoran *****

Furious Kender wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Furious Kender wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

Where do you read that the animal has to be 4-legged to be a suitable mount?

Two-legged lizard/dinosaurs are a staple of fantasy mounts in both literature and art.

"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."

Wow, some people just read way too much into things.

Either a player who tries to say they can do something because it is not explicitly verboten or a GM who says you can’t do something because of misapplication of language.

I believe though, you are being facetious in what you are saying?

In this case, the clause you quoted is in the paragraph referring to picking a mount that doesn’t already have animal companion stats. Otherwise, if the animal is written into one of the lists above this clause, then this clause obviously doesn’t apply to that animal.

I want to agree with you, but in explaining why the list of suitable mounts contains illegal mounts, Mike Brock states that

"Yes, the beast rider archetype (UC page 36) offers Medium riders extra animal companion choices, and at that level some of those cavalier's companions will be Medium rather than Large. But at the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule still applies."

And part of the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule is "A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)." This is included in a seperate paragraph from the previous one, and just like the two following paragraphs, it appears to refer to the whole class feature.

Your argument is coming off as spiteful for some reason. Like because of that previous ruling, you are out to prove that Mike and the Developers are idiots (which is not true by the way) or something.

If the archetype tells you that you can have an Anklyosaurus as a mount, then you can have one as a mount once you and it are of a size to make it legal.

The last paragraph in the archetype is dealing with creating a mount out of creatures that don’t normally change to Large or Huge size as an animal companion, and how to create stats for such a creature. It is just saying that for this particular circumstance, you must pick a creature that has 4 legs and no fly speed. This sentence is referring to the final paragraph. It doesn’t modify or inform any of the other paragraphs in the archetype.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Furious Kender wrote:


I want to agree with you, but in explaining why the list of suitable mounts contains illegal mounts, Mike Brock states that
"Yes, the beast rider archetype (UC page 36) offers Medium riders extra animal companion choices, and at that level some of those cavalier's companions will be Medium rather than Large. But at the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule still applies."

And part of the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule is "A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)." This is included in a seperate paragraph from the previous one, and just like the two following paragraphs, it appears to refer to the whole class feature.

no its written as part of the paragraph pertaining to choosing 7th level mounts. and seems to pertain only to the selection of a mount that is not on the list from previous paragraphs.

Quote:
In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear). To generate statistics for such a mount, apply the following modifications: Size Large; Ability Scores Str +2, Dex –2, Con +2. Increase the damage of each of the mount's natural attacks by one die size. A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments).

so that explicitly, at 7th level, you can't choose a mount that flies like Roc, or has fewer than 4 legs, like a kangaroo. etc. Unless allowed by the GM.

Axebeak for example is specifically allowed by the GM in PFS.

***

Seraphimpunk wrote:

yar. no bonus, no benefit, until 7th level, and only good then if you're a Medium creature, or a small one that wants to ride one of the specifically granted mounts.

though it doesn't prohibit many archetype combinations, so i don't see the harm of the trap. just no benefit to it until 7th level for medium creatures. which is sad.

With the Mammoth Rider prestige class, at 10th level a regular cavalier without the Beast Rider archetype can obtain a Huge { Arsinoitherium, aurochs, baluchitherium, camel, cat (big), elk, horse, mastodon (elephant), megaloceros, rhinoceros, triceratops, wolf, or woolly mammoth (use stats for a mastodon). } invalidating the Beast Rider archetype for those cases, as the cavalier can retrain Expert Trainer class feature or take an archetype that would normally not be compatible with Beast Rider. And mammoth rider doesn't differentiate between Small and Medium cavaliers.

( though, what a Large cavalier like a Troll would do, would probably break the mind of most developers )

It does remove the Expert Trainer feature, which is a pre-req for the multi-class friendly Horse Master Feat. Which is a shame, because as soon you find out your Cavalier is stuck with a Camel for 6 levels the first thing you're going to want to do is start dipping Druid.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

redward wrote:
It does remove the Expert Trainer feature, which is a pre-req for the multi-class friendly Horse Master Feat. Which is a shame, because as soon you find out your Cavalier is stuck with a Camel for 6 levels the first thing you're going to want to do is start dipping Druid.

which won't expand their list of mounts anymore. I'm really liking the LLama option though. just because i like saying LLama.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

taking full druid and training your animal companion for riding seems more and more like the only option to riding what you want to ride.

Though Druid 4/Cavalier 8 with boon companion to the Druid companion to grant an EDL 7 companion which goes large in most cases, and can be taught tricks to use it as a mount, if not the Mount class feature, seems like a good second option.

**

Andrew Christian wrote:


Your argument is coming off as spiteful for some reason. Like because of...

I'm sorry I'm coming off as spiteful.

I've read what I wrote in other rules threads on the beast rider, such as this one: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2np5t?FAQ-Request-Level-4-Mediumsize-Beast-Ride r-Mount.

I do wish some of these things were better copy edited, more clearly worded, and used parallel form. When they aren't, I'm never quite sure how to read it. In PFS, the most conservative reading is what is encouraged, and thus what I adopt.

Without additional dev clarity, I fully expect table variation.

***

Andrew Christian wrote:

If the archetype tells you that you can have an Anklyosaurus as a mount, then you can have one as a mount once you and it are of a size to make it legal.

The last paragraph in the archetype is dealing with creating a mount out of creatures that don’t normally change to Large or Huge size as an animal companion, and how to create stats for such a creature. It is just saying that for this particular circumstance, you must pick a creature that has 4 legs and no fly speed. This sentence is referring to the final paragraph. It doesn’t modify or inform any of the other paragraphs in the archetype.

I'm not sure why you think you can ignore one restriction on mount selection (number of legs) but not the other (size of mount w.r.t. rider). The design team, through Mike, has said that a 4th level Beast Rider Cavalier is offered a list of mount choices that it cannot use or select at 4th level. So the inclusion of any animals in that list does not imply they can actually be used. In the same archetype, it says "a beast rider cannot choose a mount...that has fewer than four legs." No exceptions given.

It is almost certainly not RAI. But given the clarification, it is almost certainly RAW. No dinosaurs. I don't like it either.

Andoran *****

redward wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

If the archetype tells you that you can have an Anklyosaurus as a mount, then you can have one as a mount once you and it are of a size to make it legal.

The last paragraph in the archetype is dealing with creating a mount out of creatures that don’t normally change to Large or Huge size as an animal companion, and how to create stats for such a creature. It is just saying that for this particular circumstance, you must pick a creature that has 4 legs and no fly speed. This sentence is referring to the final paragraph. It doesn’t modify or inform any of the other paragraphs in the archetype.

I'm not sure why you think you can ignore one restriction on mount selection (number of legs) but not the other (size of mount w.r.t. rider). The design team, through Mike, has said that a 4th level Beast Rider Cavalier is offered a list of mount choices that it cannot use or select at 4th level. So the inclusion of any animals in that list does not imply they can actually be used. In the same archetype, it says "a beast rider cannot choose a mount...that has fewer than four legs." No exceptions given.

It is almost certainly not RAI. But given the clarification, it is almost certainly RAW. No dinosaurs. I don't like it either.

Because then about 100 to 200 words of text are useless in that archetype, and that is certainly not the intent.

I'm certainly strict on some RAW stuff that many of you have disagreed with.

This is definitely not one of those things, and its silly to sit there and say that 9 or 10 of the creatures listed in previous paragraphs can't actually be taken by the cavalier because of the clause in the last paragraph that informs only the last paragraph.

It isn't about ignoring a line of text because it is inconvenient. It is about interpreting that line of text in the context it is given.

Qadira **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

its not EAI , english as intended.
the stipulation on legs comes at the end of a paragraph denoting how you can select mounts at 7th level.

yes, they erroniously have provided a list of mounts for 4th level characters that are not large. thats one area of error.

taking the trailing sentence of the paragraph about being able to choose any mount at 7th level, and applying it to the entire archetype though, is not how it is gramatically included in the archetype, and is trying to spread the error from the 4th level list into more than it is.

clearly there's a problem with the list provided to medium creatures and an unintended clash.
but it does seem to be an intended list of animals explicitly allowed. Small creatures explicitly get velociraptors. a 2 legged dinosaur.

but that is separate from the 7th level ability to choose any animal.
the archetype needs a serious rewrite. but lets not exacerbate its gaping flaws.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

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Seraphimpunk wrote:


the archetype needs a serious rewrite. but lets not exacerbate its gaping flaws.

If a bandwagon forms up, count me in. Can we bring my buddy, the titan mauler and his large sized 2 handed weapon he'll never wield too?

He's got this neat ability at level 3... but it doesn't really... work ;)

***

Andrew Christian wrote:
Because then about 100 to 200 words of text are useless in that archetype, and that is certainly not the intent.

The devs have confirmed that 41 words of text in that archetype are useless. What's another 12 - 14?

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