Ok, so I did a forum search for this but everything that came up was from the playtests.
How do spellstrike and spell combat work in conjunction with one another? I'm completely lost with regards to that.
Also is it possible for a black blade to actually be a scorpion whip? the sidebar merely defines it a one handed slashing weapon, with the weapon type up to the magus.
Thanks in advance
Ok, so I did a forum search for this but everything that came up was from the playtests.
How do spellstrike and spell combat work in conjunction with one another? I'm completely lost with regards to that.
Also is it possible for a black blade to actually be a scorpion whip? the sidebar merely defines it a one handed slashing weapon, with the weapon type up to the magus.
Thanks in advance
Can't speak for blackblade
As for Spellstrike and spell combat working together. You CANNOT mix these abilities to get two spells in a round. You CAN use them together to make your primary attack with your sword and then with your "offhand" Spell attack through your weapon to spellstrike with it. Both attacks would take the -2 penalty.
I haven't played with a Magus yet (next campaign one of my players is giving it a shot, so we'll see) but here's how I read it. Spellstrike lets you get a free attack with your blackblade in conjunction with casting a touch attack spell. This means you can cast shocking grasp and then use your free touch attack with your blade instead of your hand. This is resolved against regular AC. You can then make your normal attack(s). Spell combat allows you to cast and attack like you were dual wielding and spellstrike lets you deliver it through your blade. I'm probably repeating what you already know. If so, sorry.
It does get a little complicated when you figure in the fact that you can hold the charge of a touch spell. This means you could cast shocking grasp on round one, move in to range, deliver it through your blade attack, then make your regular attack. Then you get into touch attacks with charges, like chill touch (I think that's the one). At higher levels, this has multiple charges, so you could get a free attack to deliver that every round you have a charge. This is a debated point, so don't hold me to it. The text does read one free attack as part of casting the spell, so it may not be a legit tactic. If you're using spell combat with the spell strike, the free attack takes the -2, as well. If you're casting defensively and have added part of your Int bonus to the concentration check, the same amount is taken off each attack, so that applies to the free one as well. Hope that clears some of it up. I'm a little fuzzy on all the various ways to pull off the awesomeness, but it looks like the Magus has a definite advantage when it comes to action economy.
As far as the scorpion whip goes, the text reads slashing weapon. I think it's implied it means sword, but as far as the actual rules are concerned, I think scorpion whip, as well as one handed axes, fit the description. If I were your GM, I'd allow it. Especially since you're eating a feat tax to use the whip in the first place.
It does get a little complicated when you figure in the fact that you can hold the charge of a touch spell. This means you could cast shocking grasp on round one, move in to range, deliver it through your blade attack, then make your regular attack. Then you get into touch attacks with charges, like chill touch (I think that's the one). At higher levels, this has multiple charges, so you could get a free attack to deliver that every round you have a charge.
Sorry I had to stop reading here. Chill touch allows you to touch One CREATURE per level per casting. If you don't have 3 or however many viable target creatures when you cast the spell, those extra "charges" are wasted.
Sorry I had to stop reading here. Chill touch allows you to touch One CREATURE per level per casting. If you don't have 3 or however many viable target creatures when you cast the spell, those extra "charges" are wasted.
It does get a little complicated when you figure in the fact that you can hold the charge of a touch spell. This means you could cast shocking grasp on round one, move in to range, deliver it through your blade attack, then make your regular attack. Then you get into touch attacks with charges, like chill touch (I think that's the one). At higher levels, this has multiple charges, so you could get a free attack to deliver that every round you have a charge.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply a magus could get multiple attacks off with chill touch in one round, or hit the same foe over and over again with it until they were out of charges. I wasn't trying to clarify the spell itself, just giving an example of how the magus abilities can get complicated. You're absolutely right. If you had kept reading, you'd have seen that I called it out as a debated tactic, pointed out the part of spellstike's text that most likely would not allow it, and mention it might not be legit. Yeah, maybe if you had multiple targets in front of you, but even then, I was trying to say you'd get a free attack to deliver the spell once a round (to different targets. implied in the spell's description, which I didn't include). Even then, I personally, most likely, wouldn't let it fly in my game.
Sorry I had to stop reading here. Chill touch allows you to touch One CREATURE per level per casting. If you don't have 3 or however many viable target creatures when you cast the spell, those extra "charges" are wasted.
I do not believe this is correct.
Ok, so I did a forum search for this but everything that came up was from the playtests.
How do spellstrike and spell combat work in conjunction with one another? I'm completely lost with regards to that.
Also is it possible for a black blade to actually be a scorpion whip? the sidebar merely defines it a one handed slashing weapon, with the weapon type up to the magus.
Thanks in advance
The black blade is pretty explicit as a one handed-slashing weapon, a sword cane or a rapier.
Here are your attack options as I understand them;
Spell Combat (by itself) - cast a spell that takes one standard action or less, do melee attacks with -2 penalty (you choose the order, spell or melee attack first)
Spell Combat with Spellstrike - cast a TOUCH spell, do melee attacks including the FREE melee attack from Spellstrike. Since you technically have two attacks you cannot cast between them so you would need to cast first then attack. All attacks have -2 penalty per Spell Combat
Edit: I guess you could Spell Combat and opt to not Spellstrike until the following round. So, you would melee attack /cast the touch spell(you choose order still) 1st round then 2nd round, go 2 handed mode and spell strike with it and not take the -2 penalty.
Also Attacks of opportunity from casting are still applicable so there's a further choice of casting defensively or risking the AoO.
@Davick So if I'm reading you right, my 3rd level magus using both abilities could take his normal one handed melee attack and then get a second "free" melee attack with the same weapon charged with his touch spell at a minus four?
@B0sh1 so you agree that a scorpion whip could be a blackblade?
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply a magus could get multiple attacks off with chill touch in one round, or hit the same foe over and over again with it until they were out of charges. I wasn't trying to clarify the spell itself, just giving an example of how the magus abilities can get complicated. You're absolutely right. If you had kept reading, you'd have seen that I called it out as a debated tactic, pointed out the part of spellstike's text that most likely would not allow it, and mention it might not be legit. Yeah, maybe if you had multiple targets in front of you, but even then, I was trying to say you'd get a free attack to deliver the spell once a round (to different targets. implied in the spell's description, which I didn't include). Even then, I personally, most likely, wouldn't let it fly in my game.Sorry I had to stop reading here. Chill touch allows you to touch One CREATURE per level per casting. If you don't have 3 or however many viable target creatures when you cast the spell, those extra "charges" are wasted.
It does get a little complicated when you figure in the fact that you can hold the charge of a touch spell. This means you could cast shocking grasp on round one, move in to range, deliver it through your blade attack, then make your regular attack. Then you get into touch attacks with charges, like chill touch (I think that's the one). At higher levels, this has multiple charges, so you could get a free attack to deliver that every round you have a charge.
Haha, that's what I get for jumping to the reply button too quickly.
@Jake I'm very interested to hear how you think it should work. Even though I think I have it figured out, it's definitely one of the weirder cases.
@Davick So if I'm reading you right, my 3rd level magus using both abilities could take his normal one handed melee attack and then get a second "free" melee attack with the same weapon charged with his touch spell at a minus four?
@B0sh1 so you agree that a scorpion whip could be a blackblade?
I believe it would just be -2.
You see when you cast a touch spell, the actual touching is a free action you get as part of casting, spellstrike says you can make an attack as a free action with a weapon instead of touching.
I believe it would just be -2.
You see when you cast a touch spell, the actual touching is a free action you get as part of casting, spellstrike says you can make an attack as a free action with a weapon instead of touching.
Ok, cause spellstrike also states that when used in conjunction with Spell combat "this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks" which i took to mean that instead of spell combat's -2 for each attack, they all stacked on the spellstrike attack. so with only one normal attack I would take that -2 plus the negative two for the offhand, whereas if i already had 3 normal iterative attacks, I would have taken the first three normally but the spellstrike one at a -8
Ok, cause spellstrike also states that when used in conjunction with Spell combat "this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks" which i took to mean that instead of spell combat's -2 for each attack, they all stacked on the spellstrike attack. so with only one normal attack I would take that -2 plus the negative two for the offhand, whereas if i already had 3 normal iterative attacks, I would have taken the first three normally but the spellstrike one at a -8I believe it would just be -2.
You see when you cast a touch spell, the actual touching is a free action you get as part of casting, spellstrike says you can make an attack as a free action with a weapon instead of touching.
Whoa! What it means when it says, "this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks" is that it will take the -2 penalty from spell combat, AND any penalties accrued by taking an additional voluntary penalty to increase your cast defensively check.
So when a magus uses spell combat, their man hand takes a -2 penalty just like TWF. Then when they cast a spell, IF it involves an attack roll, that attack also takes the -2 penalty. If a magus chooses to cast defensively, they may take an additional penalty on BOTH of those attack rolls and add the same amount to the concentration check. Now, if that spell is casted with Spellstrike, then it definitely involves an attack roll, meaning it takes the -2 penalty and any penalty you chose to take for casting defensively.
Sorry if I kinda said the same thing 2 or 3 times, I'm just trying to be thorough.
EDIT: Also, I;m not sure what you mean when you say, "I would take that -2 plus the negative two (-2) for the offhand."
You can't have an offhand penalty when using spell combat, one hand must be free, and the -2 spell combat penalty is essentially emulating the same thing. So itd be crazy to make you do both.
@Davick So if I'm reading you right, my 3rd level magus using both abilities could take his normal one handed melee attack and then get a second "free" melee attack with the same weapon charged with his touch spell at a minus four?
@B0sh1 so you agree that a scorpion whip could be a blackblade?
Yes I would agree since it's a 1 handed slashing weapon.
Ok, cause spellstrike also states that when used in conjunction with Spell combat "this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks" which i took to mean that instead of spell combat's -2 for each attack, they all stacked on the spellstrike attack. so with only one normal attack I would take that -2 plus the negative two for the offhand, whereas if i already had 3 normal iterative attacks, I would have taken the first three normally but the spellstrike one at a -8I believe it would just be -2.
You see when you cast a touch spell, the actual touching is a free action you get as part of casting, spellstrike says you can make an attack as a free action with a weapon instead of touching.
Keep in mind, in spell combat you can opt to take a penalty to hit to receive a bonus to your concentration check when casting defensively which is why it is worded as "penalties" rather than just defining it always as a -2.
ok cool, I like that interpretation better, thanks
@Jake I'm very interested to hear how you think it should work. Even though I think I have it figured out, it's definitely one of the weirder cases.
I'm fairly certain that the additional "charges" of the spell are considered to "held" until discharged with an attack. A 5th level caster would get the damage and effects on the next 5 attacks, regardless of when they were taken.
I'm fairly certain that the additional "charges" of the spell are considered to "held" until discharged with an attack. A 5th level caster would get the damage and effects on the next 5 attacks, regardless of when they were taken.
@Jake I'm very interested to hear how you think it should work. Even though I think I have it figured out, it's definitely one of the weirder cases.
I think that would put chill touch way too far ahead of spells like shocking grasp or burning hands. And the wording is "creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)" implying a single creature can only be touched one per casting.
There's some other 1st level spell the Magus gets, maybe Frostbite, which is even better than Chill Touch (except maybe against undead). It does 1d6+something damage and makes the target fatigued with no save. The fatigue doesn't stack, but the debuff is gravy on top of the extra damage.
There's some other 1st level spell the Magus gets, maybe Frostbite, which is even better than Chill Touch (except maybe against undead). It does 1d6+something damage and makes the target fatigued with no save. The fatigue doesn't stack, but the debuff is gravy on top of the extra damage.
Frostbite is definitely a pretty potent spell, but remember that it deals non-lethal cold damage. On the other hand, that also makes it great for taking captives...
On the original topic, as has previously been covered, any time you cast a touch spell, instead of taking the free touch attack as normal, you can instead swing your weapon using Spellstrike and make the attack that way instead.
You CAN make your normal attacks and then cast a touch spell using Spell Combat and take a Spellstrike with your weapon, in that order, in the same turn. Using Spellstrike actually considers the weapon attack as part of casting the spell, not as a separate attack action.
"Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."
Emphasis mine, of course.
I think that would put chill touch way too far ahead of spells like shocking grasp or burning hands. And the wording is "creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)" implying a single creature can only be touched one per casting.
Actually, it puts Chill Touch behind shocking grasp. Each spell does 1d6 per CL, but CT requires an attack roll for each die, while SG only requires one role for all the damage. CT does have other effects, so maybe it's a wash.
As for the other point, I don't read the spell that way. I think the line in question just indicates how many "touches" the caster gets. You might consider starting a new thread to get other opinions, tho.
Does a 2nd level mage get to swing once with his weapon then get to swing again with his weapon and the touch spell upon it?
yes
Who disturbs my rest?
Does a 2nd level mage get to swing once with his weapon then get to swing again with his weapon and the touch spell upon it?
To understand Spell Combat and Spellstrike, I highly recommend Grick's Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat. It didn't exist yet when this thread was started.
I just noticed that it has been favorited 301 times!