Alchemy and You!


Product Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

For the longest time I yearned to find a class in 3.5 that was all about alchemy. I love the concept of it: A true Alchemist, not just a wizard who does alchemy in his spare time. Finally, I found what I was looking for with the Alchemist in the APG. Love it. Every aspect of it, every discovery, archetype, love it.

But I keep looking for something else too. Wizards can research new spells. Clerics, I guess, can too. The alchemist? Crafting alchemy is so limited, but the potential of what they can make is so vast. they should have a system in a side book, like a companion, for creating new alchemical items. A new system, like the guidelines for making spells or wondrous items (probably the better base). Wouldn't every alchemist you go to have his own little section of stuff he created? or does every alchemist stock the same stuff?

Is there a chance we'll see something like that?


Actually, every class could benefit from this sort of detail. Some examples that come off the top of my head:

Detailed locks/traps for rogue. Maybe they're great at disarming gas/toxin traps but just can't manage deadfalls.

How many times has your ranger gone out on a hunt and been frustrated by a bored "okay, just make your Survival roll"?

The problem, in my opinion, with "micro-systems" is that in Pathfinder, they STAY micro-systems. Look at such rich ideas as Sin Magic (Runelords), Harrow (Crimson Throne), Realm Building and mass combat (Kingmaker); even the current AP has rules for trials (finally!). But none of these is being kept alive, even by as much as a digital rules compendium.

But back to the thread topic; you're proposing something similar to wordcasting (Ultimate Magic) except that you build alchemical items with cost and crafting DC, possibly with feats or class options to make the process less costly or easier? Something that all characters with Craft (Alchemy) could use, but which the Alchemist class excels at?

Ick, custom poisons... my brain...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I could totally see the Pathfinder companion being used for something like this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rhishisikk wrote:

Actually, every class could benefit from this sort of detail. Some examples that come off the top of my head:

Detailed locks/traps for rogue. Maybe they're great at disarming gas/toxin traps but just can't manage deadfalls.

How many times has your ranger gone out on a hunt and been frustrated by a bored "okay, just make your Survival roll"?

The problem, in my opinion, with "micro-systems" is that in Pathfinder, they STAY micro-systems. Look at such rich ideas as Sin Magic (Runelords), Harrow (Crimson Throne), Realm Building and mass combat (Kingmaker); even the current AP has rules for trials (finally!). But none of these is being kept alive, even by as much as a digital rules compendium.

But back to the thread topic; you're proposing something similar to wordcasting (Ultimate Magic) except that you build alchemical items with cost and crafting DC, possibly with feats or class options to make the process less costly or easier? Something that all characters with Craft (Alchemy) could use, but which the Alchemist class excels at?

Ick, custom poisons... my brain...

Custom poisons would be a headache to balance, I agree.

But a friend and I were working on a home system to create alchemical items. I had a breakdown similar to the custom magic items table in the CRB, with the costs of specific effects, lengths of time affected, damage capability, primary damage, secondary damage (fuse grenade/alc fire), and the length of time it takes to make the item per XXXXgp. We also tried to use it to improve existing magic items. It worked for certain things we experimented with (regular flashbang, based off the thunderstone), but some things were just crazy with the stuff we could do (uberflashbang, below) and how cheap it was.

We made a flashbang that left you blinded/deafened/dazed for 1d6 rounds and dealt primary and secondary damage, but it came out wonky and waaaay too cheap. We never could fix it. I'd like to see Paizo take a crack it.

We never did new feats, but I tried making a spell-less alchemist archetype that focused on the items and making them badass. Turns out it was never badass enough too keep up with the base class


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Rhishisikk wrote:

Actually, every class could benefit from this sort of detail. Some examples that come off the top of my head:

Detailed locks/traps for rogue. Maybe they're great at disarming gas/toxin traps but just can't manage deadfalls.

How many times has your ranger gone out on a hunt and been frustrated by a bored "okay, just make your Survival roll"?

The problem, in my opinion, with "micro-systems" is that in Pathfinder, they STAY micro-systems. Look at such rich ideas as Sin Magic (Runelords), Harrow (Crimson Throne), Realm Building and mass combat (Kingmaker); even the current AP has rules for trials (finally!). But none of these is being kept alive, even by as much as a digital rules compendium.

Sorry for the double post, but I just thought about this; I'd be ok if it were a subsystem. It's not right for everyone's game, nor should it be. Harrow isn't, kingdom building isn't, sin magic isn't, but it's awesome for some games. I think this system would get used more than you'd think, especially for long term games.

As a matter of fact, the game I'm in is going to be utilizing the kingdom building rules, but we're set in a roman themed campaign that's got nothing to do with the PF AP it comes from.

Shadow Lodge

Players can create custom poisons, alchemical items, and extracts. You adjudicate them basically the same way you adjudicate custom spells. There is no simple formula or guideline for creating these sort of custom items (though chapter two in Ultimate Magic has a good guide on creating custom spells which you can apply to creating extracts. You can also apply many of the base concepts to creating poisons and alchemical items.

The big problem I see with alchemical items is that each new alchemical item you create is going to be unique and it's very difficult to apply a set of rules to them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
0gre wrote:

Players can create custom poisons, alchemical items, and extracts. You adjudicate them basically the same way you adjudicate custom spells. There is no simple formula or guideline for creating these sort of custom items (though chapter two in Ultimate Magic has a good guide on creating custom spells which you can apply to creating extracts. You can also apply many of the base concepts to creating poisons and alchemical items.

The big problem I see with alchemical items is that each new alchemical item you create is going to be unique and it's very difficult to apply a set of rules to them.

That's the thing, though. Extracts are spells prepared differently. that's it, big deal.

I'd think of something closer to the custom magic items table for it. A way to judge prices based on effects and how long they last. Shouldn't be too bad to create, like what I did, but balancing it would be the hard part. Especially poisons.

Shadow Lodge

The think is the game system reserves larger sorts of effects for spells and magic items and after a certain point you are really dealing with a minor wondrous item that is not really magic rather than an alchemical item.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
0gre wrote:
The think is the game system reserves larger sorts of effects for spells and magic items and after a certain point you are really dealing with a minor wondrous item that is not really magic rather than an alchemical item.

Which is why I suggested something like a Companion book. Not big, just a little bit of exploration.


My own DM and I were discussing this issue (I'm playing an Alchemist) and we home brewed a feat called Craft Wondrous Extract which essentially uses the Craft Wondrous Item's chart but applies it to the formula an alchemist has access to. So theoretically an Alchemist could produce a Manual of Bodily Health +5 equivalent extract, but it would cost the same as a Manual of Bodily Health +5 and have all the same requirements. Well, sort of. The basic idea is that the Alchemist uses the Infuse Discovery (1000gp 2 points intelligence damage) to create the BASE stable formula that the extract is going to be based on.

Then he basically spends 131 days (the Tome costs 131,250 gps to produce)continually using Combine Extract to layer the formula for Bears Endurance INTO that base. At the end of that time he's condensed and combined the extract into a powerful magical formula that if drank will give a permanent +5 boost to Constitution. But the only way to keep it balanced is if you include the catch that it does not stack with the Manual of Bodily Health. Otherwise you're creating a loophole to allow characters to go crazy stat raising.

It also only made sense (to my DM and I) for the character to have to have the Infusion, Infuse Mutagen and Combine Extract discoveries. (The mutagen being the basis for creating a permanent physical CHANGE to the being.)

But that's just how WE were thinking it might work.

Contributor

The easier solution for alchemists I've found is to just give them the Master Craftsman feat + Craft Wondrous Item and focus that through 5 ranks of Craft Alchemy which they'll be very good at due to their class.

All of the assorted magic dusts, unguents, glues and so forth are then added to their possible creations--sparing the logic puzzle of why a witch is better at making the universal solvent than an alchemist--and even the non-alchemical-seeming wondrous items can have an alchemical rationale behind their creation.

Helm of Brilliance? These are artificially grown crystals formed from the essence of light, fire, etc. that just so happen to look like gems. Carpet of Flying? It's just an ordinary but nice rug but it's been infused with a mixture of wonderflonium and upsydaisyum and the levitation effect is activated by the sonic vibrations of the word "Fly." (Technobabble and demonstrations of UMD show that the carpet will also levitate if you say "Fry" as well.)

The same can be done with Craft Magic Arms & Armor.

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