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The PFS DPR Olympics: 12th level challenge


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Finally! A thread in which you can crow over how incredibly, awesomely cool and massively destructive your character would be heading into the final retirement arc without actually having to play dozens of mods and blow hundreds of saves to finally get there!

"Journey with us once more into the land of module-play, where pitiless CR+3 opponents await your "playing up" under-powered table with slavering glee!"

* Stat array: 15,14,12,12,12,12 pre-racial. You have three more level bumps by 12th. Build must be PFS legal.

* Equipment -- choose one package:
-- a. two +3 weapons
-- b. one +3 weapon and Boots of Speed
-- c. one +4 weapon
-- x. all packages include a +4, a +2/+2, or two +2 stat items, and any legal consumable 4th-level or lower potions/scrolls/etc.

* Build: it would be nice to see all levels of the build (with order feats taken in, class variants chosen, final HP and save totals, etc), but it is not required.

* Combat: The will be one "battle round" possibly preceded by, depending upon the opponent (see below), a "prep" round. If you have a prep round, you may attack (if permitted), move and/or buff. Depending upon the opponent, you may have a single attack available during the prep round (i.e., ranged attack or spell).

* Opponents -- you will face three battles:
-- a. AC 35, size Normal, reach 5', attacks from surprise out of Invisibility (no prep round unless you cannot be surprised or see Invisible, and the prep round is a surprise-round).
-- b. AC 30, DR10/-, size Huge, reach 20', 50' away behind closed 10'-wide door; you have full prep round; you move and attack it during the battle round or fire ranged weapons or spells. (Assume an ally has opened the door.) The opponent is not surprised, and has Improved Grab and a CMD and Sense Motive both of 35 (compute Acrobatics or Bluff/feint or other "trick" (versus DC35) to receive melee attacks, with failure resulting in you taking a hit and gaining the grappled condition; you may attack from the grapple if able; you may AoO the grab if an ability enables you to).
-- c. AC 25, alignment:evil, DR20/good, size Large, reach 10', it charges and Pounces you after prep round -- yes, it picked you, you randomly-chosen dog! No surprise either side; no attacks during full prep round. If you are Enlarged with a reach-weapon, you receive one attack of opportunity prior to the battle round. If your weapon has the Brace property, you receive the benefit.

* Sneak-attacks/favored-enemies/"bane"-opponent/etc: This is not a "stealth" challenge -- i.e., while many builds rely on hiding and avoiding damage, this challenge takes those characters out of their element and subjects them to raw carnage. Otherwise, if you are a ranger/rogue/bane-weapon-wielder/etc, compute your damage both with and without ideal circumstances granting you additional damage.

* Miscellaneous: You get badly hurt because the monsters are good dice-rollers! Ouch! Do you have DR? Use it! ... Opponent A does 30pts damage in the surprise round and 60pts more in the battle round from four attacks total -- are you down or dead? Opponent B deals 120pts damage in melee during the battle round from two attacks plus 50pts with a grapple/AoO -- are you down or dead? Opponent C deals 200pts from six attacks in the battle round -- are you down or dead?

* Rule Zero: "bend" various aspects above as you see fit to incorporate unusual abilities. Keep "thread-copping" to a minimum.

- - - -

Damage/round formula: h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This doesn't exceed .95 (unless you autohit for whatever reason) and never goes below .05.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.


I'm going to make a build assuming 12th level wealth of 108,000gp. While your equipment categories take into account some of the DPR-influencing items people would use, it does not include all of them. Amulet of mighty fists for a monk or synthesist, gloves of dueling for a fighter, sniper goggles for a sniping rogue. The first build I'm submitting is a Synthesist, so no listed equipment package works.

With this WBL, I will spend a sufficient amount on maintaining reasonable defenses. I suggest you make this the guildeline for the thread. I will edit the rest of my post in a second to add my first contribution.

Liberty's Edge

Go for it. I've never played a monk (or alchemist, or this or that) in Pathfinder, so do whatever is reasonable. (I recommend not taking anything you're unlikely to ever find on an adventure-cert or which cannot be bought with Prestige from a faction which "fits" your character concept.)

Build-by-level not required, but always useful to see if PC is "viable" at all levels of play.


interesting thread. But with the rules you state, then i dont really see the point, so i have some changes to suggest.

First of all, throw out the "you can choose from these items", and let people get the 108k wbl of level 12 characters.

Combat rules: ok there is a prep round, but what if you are able to have constant buffs on you, like mage armor? or something. Personally i would say that anything you can cast yourself, with a duration of either more than, (or maybe equal to) 1m/level should be counted as pre cast if you want to.

Then you write some monsters with target AC you have to hit and such, which is fine, and even what they will do to you. But then you go on and say opponent C does 200 damage. It would be a lot better if you wrote a +hit and damage from the monster, so a defence specced tank takes less damage from it than a mage. Else the mage would also be instant dead in encounters 2 and 3. If he had fx blur on, it would also negate some damage.

What i suggest for the combat, is that u find 3 monsters in the bestiary's and then write what they do in the first 2 rounds. And from those 2 rounds people can set up a mock combat, seing if they can survive against them, and if they can outdamage the monster. IMO that would be the better solution. If you cant find any monsters that fit what you want, then just make a +hit and damage and number of attacks from it, and write what it does, and then people can take it from there.

Liberty's Edge

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

interesting thread. But with the rules you state, then i dont really see the point, so i have some changes to suggest.

First of all, throw out the "you can choose from these items", and let people get the 108k wbl of level 12 characters.

Go for it. I threw out the options because it's faster to just grab-n-go for your average beatstick tank. (Note that money is widely variable in PFS depending upon how aggressively you "play up" and how often you have out-of-pocket expenses for healing or raise dead.)
Quote:
Combat rules: ok there is a prep round, but what if you are able to have constant buffs on you, like mage armor? or something. Personally i would say that anything you can cast yourself, with a duration of either more than, (or maybe equal to) 1m/level should be counted as pre cast if you want to.
Nope. It's a bad mod. A mean mod. No "always-on" buff unless you can run it 24/7. (In compensation, nobody has to make a will save to avoid assignations with succubi instead of participating in the fight. ;-)
Quote:
Then you write some monsters with target AC you have to hit and such, which is fine, and even what they will do to you. But then you go on and say opponent C does 200 damage. It would be a lot better if you wrote a +hit and damage from the monster, so a defence specced tank takes less damage from it than a mage. Else the mage would also be instant dead in encounters 2 and 3. If he had fx blur on, it would also negate some damage.
Then the mage should evade melee in those two cases -- this is a smashface DPR challenge. Flex your pecs, frag from range or swig that potion of Invisibility and get out of the way. Edit: the monster damage is there just for you to see how survivable your character is when "Murphy's Law" strikes -- otherwise assume that you do get in all of your attacks (then you get mauled). Ignore it if you think it's irrelevant to your character -- example: my Enlarged polearm fighter with Pushing Assault will bap the Pounce monster on the snout with an AoO and knock it off its charge-line (making it forfeit its full-attack, and possibly any attack at all).
Quote:
What i suggest for the combat, is that u find 3 monsters in the bestiary's and then write what they do in the first 2 rounds.

The three examples are sufficient to let various character archtypes show their stuff. If too much "nitty-gritty" is added (there's enough already), then posters spend all their time arguing about that rather than slapping up builds.


But as it stands right now, then the only viable builds per your rule, is high HP builds, that can actually survive the beating, as AC dosnt matter. That means a barbarian build with 10 ac with probably fare better than the fighter, even if the fighter would beat every one of those equivalent monsters on his own.

The best build (if this was a competition), would be to take 11 levels of barb and 1 level of paladin. Becouse that would be highest DPR against these monsters, and with the ability to survive the pure damage taken.

That you can withstand 150 or 200 hp damage, says nothing about your survivability, becouse AC, miss chance, saves or anything is not calculated in.

Liberty's Edge

nicklas Læssøe wrote:
But as it stands right now, then the only viable builds per your rule, is high HP builds, that can actually survive the beating, as AC dosnt matter.

The PC's AC doesn't factor in most DPR challenges. Defense of any kind doesn't factor in most DPR challenges.

-- I threw in a prep round because some posters thought it would be a cool addition in the other thread. I threw in monster rebounds for those posters who are interested in it.


Mike Schneider wrote:

Go for it. I've never played a monk (or alchemist, or this or that) in Pathfinder, so do whatever is reasonable. (I recommend not taking anything you're unlikely to ever find on an adventure-cert or which cannot be bought with Prestige from a faction which "fits" your character concept.)

Build-by-level not required, but always useful to see if PC is "viable" at all levels of play.

You can buy things that aren't on your sheets. For instance, sine I have 43PA on my Barbarian, I can buy ANY item with a worth up to 31,000, and that's at level 9.

You may be going off an old version of the PFS rules where TPA did not allow you to buy any item under value X. There is no longer a list of certain items that certain factions can buy, either.

Quote:
The PC's AC doesn't factor in most DPR challenges. Defense of any kind doesn't factor in most DPR challenges.

It does when you are specifically also testing for survivability. For instance, you're just assuming that we take 200 points of damage from 6 attacks in a round, but how likely is that really when certain builds can have AC close to 40?

If you want to pit us against certain enemies in a match of who would win, then you should be providing their attack, damage, HP, fort/ref/will, and AC/FFAC/TCH. Or for enemies without class levels, just provide the name of the monster.


Omelite wrote:


It does when you are specifically also testing for survivability. For instance, you're just assuming that we take 200 points of damage from 6 attacks in a round, but how likely is that really when certain builds can have AC close to 40?

somebody is thinking about his 40ish ac synthesist build ;p.


thepuregamer wrote:
Omelite wrote:


It does when you are specifically also testing for survivability. For instance, you're just assuming that we take 200 points of damage from 6 attacks in a round, but how likely is that really when certain builds can have AC close to 40?

somebody is thinking about his 40ish ac synthesist build ;p.

Exactly =]

I think it was 38 at this level when I did out the numbers, with very little wealth invested.

Ironically, it's probably also one of the only builds that can actually take 200 damage and still be standing. With 111 HP + 99 temporary, he's got 210 total HP. Even a 24 CON barb has only 173. The defensive benchmark here of being able to survive 200 damage is ludicrous at 12th level.


Omelite wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
Omelite wrote:


It does when you are specifically also testing for survivability. For instance, you're just assuming that we take 200 points of damage from 6 attacks in a round, but how likely is that really when certain builds can have AC close to 40?

somebody is thinking about his 40ish ac synthesist build ;p.

Exactly =]

I think it was 38 at this level when I did out the numbers, with very little wealth invested.

Ironically, it's probably also one of the only builds that can actually take 200 damage and still be standing. With 111 HP + 99 temporary, he's got 210 total HP. Even a 24 CON barb has only 173. The defensive benchmark here of being able to survive 200 damage is ludicrous at 12th level.

yeah, a base amount of damage per round that you automatically take is a touch ludicrous. DR, AC, saves, total hp are all factors that should normally mitigate damage. If you are just auto-taking 200 damage, the only mitigating factor shown off is total hp.


I'm going to submit a sneak attack build. The one is not defensively amazing, and relies primarily on stealthing and using his party. Still, once he's in the fray he has 31 AC, which is not terrible.

I'm going to use my own stat array, though it is not a minmaxed array. This is because there's no practical reason to have 12 in every stat, and it's unrealistic. The array I'm using will be 7,12,12,14,14,16. This is a PFS legal array, and not an unreasonable one. I suggest others also use actual point buys rather than the static array, as the point buy is the system PFS uses. It won't have an impact on my DPR calculation anyway, as my physical stats are based on the eidolon and not my actual stats.

The Small Pouncing Touch Sneaker: Halfling Synthesist 1/Ninja 11

Spoiler:
[u]Ability Scores (No Eidolon)[/u]
STR 5 (7-2)
DEX 20 (14+2racial+4enhancement)
CON 14 (12+2enchancement)
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 18 (16+2racial)

[u]Ability Scores (Eidolon)[/u]
STR 10
DEX 20
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 18

[u]Alternate Racial Traits[/u]
Swift As Shadows

[u]Traits[/u]
Reactionary: +2 initiative
Magical Knack: +2 on summoner caster level

[u]Feats[/u]
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Skill Focus (K Nat)
5 Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)
7 Boon Companion
9 Precise Strike
11 Improved Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)

[u]Skills (102 total ranks)[/u]
Perception +24 (12 ranks)
Stealth +33 (12 ranks)
UMD +27 (12 ranks)
Knowledge (The Planes) +17 (12 ranks)
Acrobatics +20 (12 ranks)
Spellcraft +17 (12 ranks)
Knowledge (Arcana) +17 (12 ranks)
Diplomacy +19 (12 ranks)
Knowledge (Nature) +17 (6 ranks)

[u]Evolutions (3 points)[/u]
1 Pounce
1 Claws
1 Skilled (Stealth)

[u]Ninja Tricks[/u]
3 Pressure Points
5 Minor Magic (Chill Touch)
7 Fast Stealth
9 Rogue Talent (Offensive Defense)
11 Advanced Rogue Talent (Crippling Strike)

[u]Equipment [108000gp][/u]
Cloak of Resistance +5 [25000]
Belt of DEX +4 [16000]
Boots of Haste [12000]
Ring of Protection +2 [8000]
Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone [8000]
+1 Menacing on companion's armor spikes [8000]
Amulet of Might Fists +1 [5000]
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone [5000]
Pale Ruby Trillian Ioun Stone [5000]
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (attack) [4000]
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (saves) [4000]
Eyes of the Eagle [2500]
Ring of Sustenance [2500]
Wayfinder [bought with PA] - Pink Rhomboid is inside
Mwk armor spikes [bought with PA]
Mwk studded leather barding [bought with PA]

And a good bit of extra money

[u]Defenses[/u]
Can't be flat-footed or flanked.
AC: 25 / 20 FF / 19 TCH
AC after sneak attacking: 31 / 20 FF / 25 TCH.
Fort: 10
Ref: 18
Will: 12
Stealth +33 (often helps with stealth)

[u]Offense[/u]
Ki Pool: 9
Greater Invis: 10r/day
Haste: 10r/day

While flanking with pet (accomplishing this will be the pet's primary task)
Bite attacks do 1D4+7D6+1 and 3 STR damage
Claw attacks do 1D3+7D6+1 and 3 STR damage
Chill Touches do 8D6+1, 3 automatic STR damage, and 1 more STR damage on a failed DC15 fort save

Acid Splash does 1D3+6D6 and 3 STR damage (no flanking)

Normal Pounce: 3 +20 attacks (1 bite, two claws)
Normal Chill Touch Pounce: 3 +20 tch attacks (chill touches)

Haste Pounce: 4 +21 attacks (two bites, two claws)
Haste Chill Touch Pounce: 4 +21 tch attacks (chill touches)

Acid Splash: +16 ranged touch (acid splash)

Ki point: Add an additional attack to every routine.
Greater Invisibility: Add +2 to attack and target FFAC
Non-pounce: subtract 2 from attack rolls
No flanking: subtract 4 from attack rolls, and 1D6 from damage rolls
No sneak attack: Sad face

As he can only cast chill touch twice per day, with 11 charges each casting, these will only be used in two battles per day. Particularly, these will be used against enemies with lots of natural AC or armor/shield AC. Special care will be made to not use them against enemies with SR.

All things considered, this is not an amazing solo build, but is very effective in a team setting. With an invisible, ki-point, hasted assault, that's 5 touch attacks (flat-footed touch AC is usually less than 10), with an average of 4.75 of them hitting, doing an average of 3.05 STR damage (more if enemy's fort is less than +13) and 29.83125 actual damage each. That's 14.4875 average strength lost by the opponent, and 141.698 damage dealt to them at the same time. While this won't kill most enemies, it does make them significantly less threatening (-7 on attack and damage rolls for most monsters).

Against enemies he cannot reach, he will go invisible and/or stealth if possible and use acid splash to sneak attack, dealing only 3 strength damage and an average of 23 acid damage.

Animal Companion: Roc
Spoiler:
Effective Druid level 11

9 HD

Ability Scores
STR 23
DEX 20
CON 14
INT 3
WIS 13
CHA 11

Feats
1 Dodge
3 Mobility
5 Improved Nat AC
7 Precise Strike
9 Light Armor Prof

Skills
Fly maxed
Others insignificant

Defense
10-1size+16nat+5dex+1dodge+3armor
34 AC, 28 FF AC, 15 TCH AC
Fort +8
Ref +11, evasion
Will +4

Offense
Not calculated - only exists for flanking and taking the AoOs, though it will add some marginal DPR

DPR:

Invisible Haste Ki-Point Pounce and/or Full attack with Chill Touches: 5 attacks for 141.698 DPR and 14.4875 strength DPR. I'm ignoring target AC because it's against flat-footed touch AC, which is 10 or less for almost every enemy. He can only continue in this attack mode for 2 rounds at a time before having to recast chill touch, and he can only cast chill touch twice per day (though he can cast it before battle and hold the charge).

Thus, the above can only be done on a total of 4 rounds per day, since the synthesist will be out of chill touches after that. This kind of all-out offense would only be used against very formidable threats that the party is going to have trouble with otherwise.

Against sufficiently low flat-footed AC (25 or less), invisible haste ki-point pouncing with regular attacks will do about 135 DPR and 14.25 strength DPR. I'd have to know what the enemies' flat footed and touch ACs are to figure out the most efficient means of attack and the DPR for that means.

Also note that the animal companion will slightly add to DPR, but he's mostly just there to flank.


thepuregamer wrote:
Omelite wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
Omelite wrote:


It does when you are specifically also testing for survivability. For instance, you're just assuming that we take 200 points of damage from 6 attacks in a round, but how likely is that really when certain builds can have AC close to 40?

somebody is thinking about his 40ish ac synthesist build ;p.

Exactly =]

I think it was 38 at this level when I did out the numbers, with very little wealth invested.

Ironically, it's probably also one of the only builds that can actually take 200 damage and still be standing. With 111 HP + 99 temporary, he's got 210 total HP. Even a 24 CON barb has only 173. The defensive benchmark here of being able to survive 200 damage is ludicrous at 12th level.

yeah, a base amount of damage per round that you automatically take is a touch ludicrous. DR, AC, saves, total hp are all factors that should normally mitigate damage. If you are just auto-taking 200 damage, the only mitigating factor shown off is total hp.

That is exactly my point. If you want a build that can take 200 hp damage, and you dont build and invulnrable rager, then you need a combined +10 hp per level as a barbarian (+11 for d10 hp classes). Even while raging most barbarians dont have more than 16 (base) + 8 (rage level 11 and feat) = 24 con. If that barbarian wanted to survive this challange, he would have to take toughness, hp each level, and have a +2 con belt (hard to get that and a large str). Even with all these insane requirements, he would only rock

12 + 11d12 + 120 = 203.5 average hp.

And that is the class in the game (ok synthesist too) with the most possible hp. No other class can just take 200 hp damage and live.

I would actually think it very interesting, to see PFS legal builds pitted against an array (3) of very hard encounters, going by solo situations. And use that as a benchmark to what is actually good and what isnt. That would also mean you cant trade off to much ac and saves, or you would just get crushed, while still maintaining a good DPR.

Liberty's Edge

Omelite wrote:
I'm going to submit a sneak attack build. The one is not defensively amazing, and relies primarily on stealthing and using his party. Still, once he's in the fray he has 31 AC, which is not terrible.

Omelite, go ahead and submit this in the new thread.

Thanks.

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