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Working on converting this from 3rd edition, but looking at the original design and small town and wondering if anyone, for flavor or otherwise, would prohibit or has prohibited any APG or Ultimate Magus classes?
Even if you haven't played, the premise is being a resident of a seedy mining town of 1,000 people, and being presented with the opportunity to have a better life in the form of an adventure. While the original adventure path provided reasons for each core class and race to be in town, I am still working on justifying the APG classes. Some are easier than others (like an alchemist, who surely would have a place in a mining town).
Alchemists seem to fit quite well. In fact, filge should probably be one. Inquisitors could be from several good religions, or could be from one of the three evil religions involved in one of the early adventures, since they are explicitly heretics. Cavaliers would be fine, their are some mercenary groups in the region that could work with those. Witches fit anywhere, magi seem to as well. Not sure of any specific hooks for oracles.
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I wold not stop them from play any class. I have run age of worms. A few thinks I wold make sure the players know first.
1: Monks are off limits! not becous there a bad class but becous of how the spawn of Kyuss function.
2: Make sure they understand that channel positive energy and clense are both required for compleation of parts of the AP.
3: Make sure they understand this AP is deadly. They will need optimized characters if your not using a high point buy.
Before I comment on the APG classes, I do just want to point out that there is a slight risk that comes with following the APs reccomendation that players be "natives" of that wretched little mining town who become adventurers to get out of it: specifically, they may hate it so much they refuse to ever return, which can play holy hell with the story progression a few adventures down the line. From personal experience both playing and running that AP to completion, I recommend being willing to have one or two PCs not be "natives", if only to help with that issue.
As for the APG classes:
Alchemist is easy, fits in anywhere a smart guy can make a living being smart and making potions.
Inquisitor is easy too, lots of heresy going on in a wretched hive of scum and villany like that town. Sometimes the inquisitor comes to town, sometimes the town creates one on its own. Will of the gods and all that.
Cavalier can be harder, if only because having the wealth to own a horse means having the wealth to leave the town. See my first comment; a cavalier might work better as an out of towner.
Oracle is same as inquisitor; the town itself may produce one. Who knows what strange visions could be granted by inhaling too much coal dust, or illegal narcotics in a back room. And consider the forces at play in the adventure itself, a connection could be made there in the first adventure even. And then there is always the non-native, drawn to the place by visions he doesn't understand. Oracle is a goldmine for plothooking.
Witch is easy, since its basically a school-less wizard. Turning the resident NPC wizard into a witch could make for an interesting thing (and arguably should be done if there is a PC witch as that NPC serves as a prime resource for learning spells for many early levels).
Summoner is the same as oracle in my book. Who knows what powers might reach out from within their prisons, or from beyond the eons of time long past, to grasp for a mortal hand. Again, many "behind the scenes" forces in the story that could make for good choices and great "ta-dah!
reveals down the line.
I don't see any reason why the APG classes couldn't work just as easily as any of the core classes. Heck, some core classes are almost harder to justify, like monk.
I wold not stop them from play any class. I have run age of worms. A few thinks I wold make sure the players know first.
1: Monks are off limits! not becous there a bad class but becous of how the spawn of Kyuss function.
2: Make sure they understand that channel positive energy and clense are both required for compleation of parts of the AP.
3: Make sure they understand this AP is deadly. They will need optimized characters if your not using a high point buy.
1: Agreed. I wouldn't forbid the class outright, but I would flat out warn that the player is choosing "nightmare mode".
2: Don't know what you mean by cleanse, but Channel Energy is definitely another "helps a lot". Not having an actual channeller (Cleric or Paladin) definitely bumps the difficulty from "normal" to "hard" in a few points, both in terms of healing, damaging enemies, and opening certain pathways. Note that UMD to fake having the ability can bypass some the latter.
3: Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. If you want a story to progress without frequent character turnover (which can sometimes create the "why are we still doing this" situation when everyone realizes there are no original members of the party left) you may want to use the 20, or even the 25 point buy. If your party normally is solid on their tactics, synergy, and teamwork, 20 should be ok. If you plan on taking the effort to "pathfinderize" the monsters, even just the "boss" monsters, you might want to look at 25. Some of those come out amazingly deadly with a few extra feats.
I only say this stuff because when I run APs, I prefer to let the story carry the players a bit more than usual. When I run sandbox, I let players drive the story, and PC death helps with that more often than not. With APs, PC death usually brings things to a grinding halt or even bumps the train off the tracks entirely. Ultimately, its up to you how you want that to play out. Hope this info helps.
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Interesting ideas if someone chooses to run an Oracle!
I'm currently running my own campaign with a 20-point buy with what began as a 4-person party. Now that we're up to 5, maybe 6, I'm having to run adventures a level higher.
Would anyone recommend a 15-point build with 6 players, or am I condemning my players to a grisly end no matter their clever ways?
On a tangent, I'm running into a side-issue, probably best reserved for another thread, where I expect to have 6 players. I'm looking for excuses to cut down on "secondary" characters like cohorts and companions because they slow game-time significantly, but if the adventures prove to be the challenge I expect, I hate to restrict this too much.
The action economy (number of turns the good guys can take vrs the bad guys) is almost always more valuable than the point buy of the characters.
If you have five PCs, and especially if you have six, then your action economy is tilted 25 to 50% in the party's favor.
Look at it this way: if your two "extra" PCs are a fighter type and an arcane caster, its like getting to roll twice for attack rolls. Except when both rolls hit, you do damage twice. When both enemy saves fail, you do damage twice.
It really comes into play with things like Gelatinous Cubes and other "remove a character" critters. Barbed Devils tossing out Hold Person is a good example too. In a 4 man group, one guy is paralyzed/held/stunned/dominated/whatever. The other 3 carry on, with a 25% drop in party action economy. With a six man group, five more get to go. That allows the group to do everything the four man party does, plus let one more do whatever he wants and one guy dedicate to rescuing the first poor sap.
With six players, at a 15 point buy, fatalaties are going to arise from stupidity, not lack of power. The primary points of "Stupid" to watch out for:
1: Splitting up. You have enough people to split into three pairs. Nobody should ever be completely alone. Lower point buy = lower hp = die faster in an ambush. Never go solo.
2: Disregarding saving throws. Stats are lower, saving throws are lower. Maybe by only a point, but thats all it takes to fail. Cloak of resistance is Priority #1, with upgrading it being #2, and getting stat boosters to low saving throw stats #3, even if you don't need it for anything else. Circlet of Wisdom +2, even if you aren't a cleric, is still +1 to will saves, +1 to perception, +1 to sense motive. All of which can save your life.
3: Disregarding knowledge. Knowledge skills can tell you if you can kill a monster or not. Fighting something you can't kill, or even can't kill fast, is just asking for the dice to turn against you. Divinations can give amazingly good advice even at low level. If the Augury spell says "Woe", then be very cautious in the dungeon. A lower point buy group should not be blazing through an ancient crypt in a single afternoon. They should take their time, researching, casting divinations, checking for traps, and generally acting like people risking their very lives for a shot at wealth rather than superheros in search of glory.
4: Disregarding consumeables. Maybe its just me, but I see a lot of players never even look twice at potions that don't have "healing" in the name, same with scrolls. But 100g for two Oils of Magic weapon means being able to wait a full extra level to get a +1 weapon, and instead you can buy a +1 suit of armor and a +1 cloak of resistance, both of which will keep you alive longer. Is it a pain to keep track of twenty odd potions and one-off wondrous items? Maybe, but why risk a horrific poison blade/crushing ceiling/spiked pit/fireball trap combo on a treasury door when you can gaseous form right through, load up, and get out with two potions of Gaseous Form.
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Just rember if your doing 15 point buy they will need to optimize there characters. If there not big on optimization 20 point buy is better.
One thing that i'll recomend for most AP. One things to help low levels go with out TPK. This hase stoped alot of low level deaths. And around level 5 there back to around avg. HP.
Double starting HD for base HP. IE. 1D6=12HP 1D8=16HP 1D10=20HP 1D12=24HP + Con mod.
And the spell I was talking about is Hallow. As being required for some parts of the AP. Or you can not complet the removel of the spawn of kyuss.
On a tangent, I'm running into a side-issue, probably best reserved for another thread, where I expect to have 6 players. I'm looking for excuses to cut down on "secondary" characters like cohorts and companions because they slow game-time significantly, but if the adventures prove to be the challenge I expect, I hate to restrict this too much.
Just say: "Hey guys, there's six of you here, and I want all of you to be able to share the spotlight and have fun, plus I want to be able to spend my time running the adventure rather than rebuilding it, so heres the deal: in the interest of keeping the combat round moving and the action flowing, I'm gonna but a nix on secondary characters, like animal companions, cohorts, pally mounts, that sort of stuff. I'm not trying to limit you guys, I'm just trying to limit the strain on my ability to keep track of everything and keep it moving without people getting bored. Just trying to make this as fun as possible while knowing my own limits."
If they have a problem with that, if their character concept "just can't be realized without an animal companion" then they obviously aren't as interested in playing the game with you as a DM as they are just interested in playing their character. That playstyle might be fine at some tables, but in my opinion, the more people at the table, the more of a team game it becomes. No "I" in team, and all that.
In 3.5 it might have been an issue, but now that every "companion" class like druid/ranger/wizard/sorceror/paladin now has a built in "non-companion" option, there is really no reason why players can't understand and agree to what is ultimately a reasonable modification considering the party size.
Heck, you could even let them still take leadership, just make it clear that cohorts and followers will not come into the hostile dungeon, but they will do a lot of other stuff, like keep house, carry out the loot from a "pacified" dungeon, repair gear, collect rumors, buy gear, etc. Having a cohort can just as easily be like Bruce Wayne having Alfred, rather than Captain America having Bucky.
1: Monks are off limits! not becous there a bad class but becous of how the spawn of Kyuss function.
Monks shouldn't be too bad, so long as they're using a weapon. Even if they wanted to use their unarmed damage, they can still use brass knuckles. Brass Knuckles also give them the ability to bypass material DR, so they're extra useful.
These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.
Brass knuckles 1 gp 1d2 small 1d3 medium x2 crit 1 lb. Bludgeoning
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Brass Knuckles are not going to help you at all!!!!!
BIG SPOILER: And no I don't know how to use tags.
Every time you hit a spawn of kyuss with a unarmed strike of any kind. They inflect Wis, Int, or Con damage. Ya play a monk and watch them die the first of a 100 times you encounter a spawn of kyusses. So no monks unless you want to die in every book past #4, and from #6 on 10 to 12 times per book. There is a reason I don't let my players take a class. Normaly im open in what class they can play. In this case it just prevents mass deaths on the part of the monk.
Brass Knuckles are not going to help you at all!!!!!
Well, assuming that you're ruling that brass knuckles are still considered unarmed attacks (which is not unreasonable, considering what I quoted above), the simple solution would be to use another monk weapon... Cestus, Temple Sword, Kukri, and so on... lots of other great choices. The only problem with that is that you lose out on Monk Damage. The monk isn't completely screwed, just has to play with a bit of wisdom.
I've decided on a house rule for this, because I have a player who REALLY wanted to be a monk. I'm allowing someone wearing brass knuckles to be treated as "armed", much like the Rope Gauntlet.
Each rope gauntlet takes a full minute to wrap and another minute to soak, but once applied can be worn for a day; removing a rope gauntlet takes 1 full round. When wearing rope gauntlets, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage rather than nonlethal damage. If you are proficient with rope gauntlets, you may use the rough edges of the ropes to deal slashing damage rather than bludgeoning damage. Your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in your hands while wearing rope gauntlets, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision based tasks involving your hands (such opening locks).
On the other hand, the character might like the idea of the rope gauntlets, so maybe I'll just run with that. I'd rather make a minor adjustment to make things easier for a class than to have a class be considered "unplayable" over something this easily resolved. I'll be happy to have either someone using brass knuckles to be considered armed, or have rope gauntlets allow monk damage.
Even without these modifications, the other monk weapons allow plenty of ways to play the monk through this AP without issue.
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You can house rule any thing you want. But over all brass knuckes and rope gauntlets will not protect you with RAW for spawn of kyuss. I'm not one for changing stuff just to make it easy on the players. If I told them you don't want to play a monk and they did. It's on them to find the solution not me. As a DM it is not your job to find ways for the players to be effective. That is the job of the player that is runing the character.
It's on them to find the solution not me.
... and I've outlined an easy RAW solution for that problem... Monk Weapons. Cestus. Rope Gauntlets. Kukri. Temple Swords. Quarterstaff. Kama. Nunchaku. Sai. Siangham. Shuriken.
People tend to forget that, just because the Monk has a great unarmed damage, that they can still be really effective with other weapons. All of the items that I just listed would completely negate the issue that you claimed would get a monk killed so many times as to be not worth playing.
If a monk character lacks the wisdom to adjust their tactics to a situation, then the character shouldn't live, and the only way it's the GM's problem is if they're not willing to suggest solutions to a player with tunnel-vision on the whole "Monk Damage" thing. This could be a case where the character would be wiser than the player.
I will happily concede that I misunderstood Brass Knuckles, and originally thought that those attacks would be considered "armed". My mistake, and easily fixed, since we haven't reached that part of my game yet. That having been said, if a player had their heart set on brass knuckles, and could make a decent case for being considered armed while using them, I'd listen. As GM, that's my prerogative. For what it's worth, Rope Gauntlets are considered "armed", being a Light Exotic Weapon... the problem with them is that they don't do the Monk Damage. That having been said, the only advantage a Monk would get out of them, as written, is being Armed, and the possibility of doing Slashing damage. I'd listen to a case for being able to do monk damage with that weapon.
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Any monk that keeps attacking bare-handed after getting wallopped with ability score damage deserves to RIP. Hehe. But as I'm still plowing through the path while running my other campaign, good to know.
We're likely to have 6 players, so we're probably going to nix having animal companions/traditional cohorts and bar the Cavalier/Summoner, which don't have an alternative, in order to speed up the combat round.
I'm running the final encounter of the 11th installment now, after nearly 2 years of playing this campaign, and I can tell you that if you're talking about the 3.5 DMG point buy method, 15 points is a garanteed suicide. Might as well go drown yourself in Diamond Lake before adventure #1. The Age of Worms is not for the likes of a 15 point PC... the peasants who clean the outhouses in Age of Worms have more stats than that. Consider a 32 or even 38 point buy if you want a PC to actually survive the entire adventure path, and even then most of them will die long before level 20. I introduced Fate Points right away, and chenged them so they could be used to "avoid death" instead of change a die roll. I gave the PCs one new fate point each time they leveled up, with a maximum of one fate point at any time, and I allowed them to spend their fate point on any PC or NPC in the party. The result: I have actually killed 27 PC's but due to fate points none have actually ever died and stayed dead. The perfect way to avoid PC death unless the players are being really stupid. And all that even with a party of six 38 point characters! Going into AOW with 15 point PCs? MADNESS!
Firelock
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...I can tell you that if you're talking about the 3.5 DMG point buy method, 15 points is a garanteed suicide. Might as well go drown yourself in Diamond Lake before adventure #1...I introduced Fate Points right away, and chenged them so they could be used to "avoid death" instead of change a die roll...
Hehe, the Pathfinder 15-point buy, which can give a stat block like 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 before racial modifiers. I'm not so cruel as to use the 3rd edition concept! I'll also be using Pathfinder's Hero Points if I use the lower buy to give the players a boost of luck when times are dark, luck that an ordinary fellow just may not possess.