Low APL?

[Lambsteak]

Hello! I´m a little nooby GM who needs some help about the APL- rules...

So here´s the thing: Yesterday I was building my first own encounter for my players, and as normal I started out with calculating my group´s averege party level. After a little moment of math I figured out that the APL of my group was 0 (1X3/3-1=0), which felt kinda wierd. So without having a clue, I´ve turned my little case to this Pathfinder Community, in hope that someone here has an answer in store for me. I guess that the answer will involve house- rules, but busy as I am I didn´t "have time" to make my own (cough cough >.>)...

Thank you on beforehand

//Lambsteak

PS: Please forgive my bad english, I´m a swede... :P

[Ashkecker]

There is a rule for what happens when you subtract 1 from a CR less than 2. It goes 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc.

So your group's APL is 1/2 and the following are appropriate challenges.

Easy 1/3
Average 1/2
Challenging 1
Hard 2
Epic 3

So if you want an average challenge, try a single zombie or 2 kobolds.

[Evil Lincoln]

I recommend just treating the party as APL 1.

CR is great, but it is not precise, and the sooner you get accustomed to eyeballing and adjusting for your party the better your game will be.

Remember that even a level 1 party should be able to take a challenge one or two CR above it's level. It will just be a tough fight, rather than one fight in a long chain of encounters.

[Evil Space Mantis]

Party composition makes more than a bit of difference at lower levels as well. Almost had a brand new party of 5 level 2 characters all die from a CR 5 fight not two weeks ago. (Which I admit was supposed to be tough, but in a fun set piece kind of way, not a completely murder the PCs kind of way...)

Problem was, they were a Monk, a Bard, 2 Sorcerers, and a bow focused Ranger.

At low levels especially Clerics and Fighters/Barbarians make a big difference in small parties. Conversely, a Bard in a 3 man party is going to have a hard time pulling his weight.

If they have gone for the 'classic' character classes: Fighter, Cleric, and either a rogue or wizard; you can probably treat them as APL 1. If they have taken some of the more diverse classes, like Bards and Monks, or non-standard versions of normal classes, like a negative energy Cleric, or a concept Sorcerer/Oracle with a non-combat focused spell list, I would treat em as APL 1/2. Those classes tend to catch up, but they start just a little weak compared to most of the rest.

[Lambsteak]

Evil Space Mantis wrote:

If they have gone for the 'classic' character classes: Fighter, Cleric, and either a rogue or wizard; you can probably treat them as APL 1. If they have taken some of the more diverse classes, like Bards and Monks, or non-standard versions of normal classes, like a negative energy Cleric, or a concept Sorcerer/Oracle with a non-combat focused spell list, I would treat em as APL 1/2. Those classes tend to catch up, but they start just a little weak compared to most of the rest.

Well, my party is a lvl 1 Draconic Sorceress, one lvl 1 Bard and one lvl 1 rouge. Where would you recommend that I set APL? :0

[noah mclaughlin]

Lambsteak wrote:

Well, my party is a lvl 1 Draconic Sorceress, one lvl 1 Bard and one lvl 1 rouge. Where would you recommend that I set APL? :0

I'd eyeball that APL as 1/2 or even 1/3. While you have two skilled characters and a blaster, the party lacks a truly dedicated healer/buffer (bards are only okay compared to clerics) and also lacks a meat-shield.

So, Ashkecker's spread is pretty good:

Easy 1/3 (one goblin)
Average 1/2 (two goblins or a single human zombie)
Challenging 1 (three to four goblins, two zombies or a single wolf)
Hard 2 (four to six goblins, four zombies, two wolves or a single bugbear)
Epic 3 (you get the idea)

Generally, for this party I would design encounters that are engage the PCs' skills rather than their combat prowess. Let them talk, give them time to think their way around a problem / trap / deadly fight. And be sure to reward them for thinking first rather than barreling in to their deaths.

If you're working with new players:

1) Aim low with your CRs until you and your players are more comfortable with the system

2) I would encourage you to provide the party with either a dedicated buffer or meat-stick as an NPC ally. That or investigate a subsystem like the "Companion Spirit" from the old 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide II (pg. 194).

[Lambsteak]

Thank you for all wonderful advices, I think that I should be pretty okay now. I will follow your two advices, Noah, and hopefully me and my players will have a better time with DnDP thanks to you guys. Rock on... :)

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I would go one step further and recommend that you use less combats and more skill based/role-play based challenges in the game. With 2 skill monkeys and two cha-focused characters this party composition lends itself better to investigation/infiltration than straight combat.

[Lambsteak]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I would go one step further and recommend that you use less combats and more skill based/role-play based challenges in the game. With 2 skill monkeys and two cha-focused characters this party composition lends itself better to investigation/infiltration than straight combat.

Okay, I will keep that in my mind. Thanks!