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Since a thread about this topic was locked I will start two new threads one for and one against. Keep it civil otherwise the thread will be locked and lets try to not have that happen again.
I will start the ball rolling. I am in favor of an official product that supports Epic play. I think PF could use one ot round out what I think is missing in the rules and to compete on equal terms with 4E and 3.5.
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Since a thread about this topic was locked I will start two new threads one for and one against. Keep it civil otherwise the thread will be locked and lets try to not have that happen again.
I will start the ball rolling. I am in favor of an official product that supports Epic play. I think PF could use one ot round out what I think is missing in the rules and to compete on equal terms with 4E and 3.5.
I would very much love to see official products that support epic/mythic level play. My group and I have wanted them for a long time, and I stronly look forward to eventually seeing them for Pathfinder.
my group and I also want High level content for 20+ and godhood
Definite want to have.
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I want it, but I don't want them (Paizo) to feel rushed. I can wait.
A vote for it
I want epic rules.
Still hoping for an epic rules book.
The sooner the better.
Put me down for wanting mythic content as well.
Yes, I'd like a Mythic book.
Don't know that I'd ever use it, no character in our games has ever gone that far, but I want the (official) option.
I definitely want one, and I can guarantee sales of 6-8 of them in my group.
Plus, that means I can run actual supported mythic Pathfinder events at conventions.
gbonehead, are you going to GenCon? If so, and you are planning to maybe run an open (or even organized) epic level session, let me know. (If you want to invite, of course). Would like to see your take and how you run epic. You have described it and shares my views, but much different in experiencing it.
Ok, sorry for the derail. Back to your regularly scheduled program. :)
I be wanting Epic adventure post the 20 'n some fashion!
Let the landlubber 'n malingerers walk the plank, for we be setting out for shoals unknown!
Can I get big arr, me hearties!
i'm 100% for it and I assess that there's enough interest that Paizo will put it out. Frankly if you're against it that's fine. Just don't use it. There is no reason to insist that it not be created at all. In other words you're entitled to your opinion, but don't poo poo it for the rest of us.
gbonehead, are you going to GenCon? If so, and you are planning to maybe run an open (or even organized) epic level session, let me know. (If you want to invite, of course). Would like to see your take and how you run epic. You have described it and shares my views, but much different in experiencing it.
Ok, sorry for the derail. Back to your regularly scheduled program. :)
If I ever make it out there I'll let you know. For the short term, paying for college for the next six years takes precedence unless I win the lottery :)
On the other hand, if you're ever out East, stop by ConnectiCon (March), ConnCon (July) or AnonyCon (December) ... I always run epic games at those.
gbonehead, are you going to GenCon? If so, and you are planning to maybe run an open (or even organized) epic level session, let me know. (If you want to invite, of course). Would like to see your take and how you run epic. You have described it and shares my views, but much different in experiencing it.
Ok, sorry for the derail. Back to your regularly scheduled program. :)
If I ever make it out there I'll let you know. For the short term, paying for college for the next six years takes precedence unless I win the lottery :)
On the other hand, if you're ever out East, stop by ConnectiCon (March), ConnCon (July) or AnonyCon (December) ... I always run epic games at those.
Heh, understand that whole ‘funds’ problem. :)
Ok, if I head out east, I’ll keep those cons in mind. Thanks for the offer.
Also, I would like to make it to PaizoCon, but I’m from the Chicago area and it’s hard to justify costs, especially since I usually go to GenCon every year as it is only a (relatively) short drive.
This recent post by James Jacobs is probably of interest to everyone in this thread.
This recent post by James Jacobs is probably of interest to everyone in this thread.
Thanks for the link, Erik. Definitely an interesting read on James’ post.
I want this... And I like the level 36 cap.
EDIT- Ninja'd by like two hours. ;)
I'm in favor of Mythic level play as well as a high level (10th-20th LV) guide book.
on a side note I think a lot of the people that are against Mythic level play are against it because of how past attempts turned out or because of the perception that you have to be a demigod at 23rd LV, (something I don't agree with.) not trying to speak for anyone just the impression I'm getting reading between the lines.
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I was moved by the words of Mr. Jacobs post, so much that I felt the need to put in my own 2 cp on the matter. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do, then you have my most sincere apologies in advance.
I've been an ardent supporter of Epic/Mythic level play and that's not likely to change. I've played post-20th level characters in 1st, 2nd, and 3-3.5 edition. I've run more post-20 level sessions than anyone in my area and I can honestly say that when my players do not reach 20th because of the level cap of an adventure path, they look to me to take them beyond that point. Sure over the years I've done my share of deific involvement and have even allowed some of my players' characters to become proto-deities, but that wasn't necessarily the end-all and be-all for them. Things like the return of an adversary long thought dead, one that has been following their every move just waiting for the right opportunity to strike back at them has been just as effective in challenging my players as facing down demon lords and godlings. As long as the rules can help me with my ideas to provide them the challenge they're looking for, that's my number one priority.
On a side note, I've also had a problem with those that do not like Epic/Mythic content complaining about post-20th level feeling more like a superhero campaign. Considering that comic books are the modern way of creating and passing on mythology, I see that more as a compliment than an insult. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but by default, the PCs are superheroes. Its an interesting concept, I admit, but that doesn't change the truth of it. If you can accept the fact that your campaign setting has NPC heroes and that the PCs can exceed their abilities, then that takes them beyond being mere heroes and in fact turns them into superheroes. That's just the way it is. No getting around it. It may not be as obvious to some, but it is still nonetheless a true statement.
Now I don't mean to be condescending with my words, but I find it equally condescending when that kind of disparagement is made. I've always looked at any campaign setting as an attempt at creating myth. Greyhawk. Faerun. Athas. Golarion. These are the realms of myth and legend, just as surely as any homebrew setting. Your players characters are the BDHs, the superheroes... otherwise they wouldn't be playing them. The only thing keeping them from doing so is DM pigeonholing. And who wants to be accused of that?
I'll stick my nose in, if only to say that I am eager to see Epic content. Blayde mirrors many of my personal experiences and beliefs.
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I was moved by the words of Mr. Jacobs post, so much that I felt the need to put in my own 2 cp on the matter. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do, then you have my most sincere apologies in advance.
I've been an ardent supporter of Epic/Mythic level play and that's not likely to change. I've played post-20th level characters in 1st, 2nd, and 3-3.5 edition. I've run more post-20 level sessions than anyone in my area and I can honestly say that when my players do not reach 20th because of the level cap of an adventure path, they look to me to take them beyond that point. Sure over the years I've done my share of deific involvement and have even allowed some of my players' characters to become proto-deities, but that wasn't necessarily the end-all and be-all for them. Things like the return of an adversary long thought dead, one that has been following their every move just waiting for the right opportunity to strike back at them has been just as effective in challenging my players as facing down demon lords and godlings. As long as the rules can help me with my ideas to provide them the challenge they're looking for, that's my number one priority.
On a side note, I've also had a problem with those that do not like Epic/Mythic content complaining about post-20th level feeling more like a superhero campaign. Considering that comic books are the modern way of creating and passing on mythology, I see that more as a compliment than an insult. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but by default, the PCs are superheroes. Its an interesting concept, I admit, but that doesn't change the truth of it. If you can accept the fact that your campaign setting has NPC heroes and that the PCs can exceed their abilities, then that takes them beyond being mere heroes and in fact turns them into superheroes. That's just the way it is. No getting around it. It may not be as obvious to some, but it is still nonetheless a true statement.
Now I don't mean to be condescending with my words, but I find...
+1
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I haven't managed to get a group that will make it past 9th level, I'd like to go farther, but a lot of the players I game with are flaky. One of them simply wouldn't show up consistently, the gm was his friend (was being the operative term now), and so we couldn't play when he didn't show up. Now they aren't friends, so we can play consistently...assuming the holidays cooperate.
In my other group one of the players got a wild hair and decided he wanted to run, I wasn't happy with his game, now I'm playing in a different (hero system), much better game (one being ran by someone else). I like Pathfinder, I don't like bad GMs, and the GM in the latter game, was bad.
Now I'm playtesting the ninja on my Friday games. I just made it to level 2 and I'm excited.
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Count me in, I've even got the cash already set aside :-)
That's why I love me subscriptions, have the cash planned out in advance.
In close to 30 years of gaming I had one group make it to 20+ levels and the camapign was memorable. If I can put together a group like that again having Mythic level material availible will be awesome.
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I want mythic rules that allow me to build a nation and turn it into an empire or at least head my own city-state, raise an epic military machine (and use it), form a global secret society with agents in the highest levels of powerful organizations, become the godfather of my own mob family, be the master of my own guild (thiefy or otherwise), become the prince of my own merchant house, start a temple at a spot chosen by my god (or whatever) and defend it, develop my own fighting style and form a school to teach it, found a college of magic, run a roadhouse inn on a planar nexus.
There are so many possibilities for mythic level play that you don't need to resort to the usual tropes of "Find and assemble epic McGuffins A-134 - HK-365 to make SUPERMEGA McGUFFIN OF ULTRANESS so you can go kill the epic case of athlete's foot that Willy Nilly the God Who Runs All Over The Place was cursed with by Vindictive Beayotch, The Demon Queen of No One Loves MeeeEEEEEee. Of course, the instructions for assembling the mcguffin are in a language that has been dead for 20,000 millenia and the only book of translations is in the bathroom of a demon lord?!
Think of Marco Polo's journey to China. Now blow that up to include all of the options a fantasy world brings. Now the trade route you're mapping includes skyships, another planet and a couple of planes of existence. What could be more epic than negotiating a trade agreement with the Pashas of the City of Brass and coming out at least even. Kill a god? Meh. Gods die every day. A good bargain is much harder to come by.
Don't get me wrong. There will be a time to exercise ass-kicking protocols and initiate the taking of names. If Professor Whatever over at the Academy of Alchemea has something to say about how I conduct my affairs then me, my staff, my students and my adventuring buddies from back in the day will pay him a visit and leave a smoldering pit in our wake. Defending what you fought so hard and long to build and sacrificed so much for IS an adventure.
There are so many options available at these levels that the game shouldn't revolve around more of the gimmicks of lower levels like "kick in the door and nuke the mooks." The only difference being that these these are EPIC MOOKS so bring the EPIC NUKES. I would be interested on becoming immortal but not a god (okay maybe once) unless you mean godfather. Now there's power and the ability to get things done.
SM
I want, nay, NEED Mythic rules from Paizo. But I don't want them to rush in, and right now my highest level PF PC is only 8th (and just hitting his stride), so I don't need them tomorrow.
I just posted a huge essay on my Mythic dreams over in Hama's "Share your Epic Experiences and Suggest How Paizo should do it," or something like that, thread.
One more for epic/mythic content, and while I don't want it rushed, I do want it sooner rather than later!
I was moved by the words of Mr. Jacobs post, so much that I felt the need to put in my own 2 cp on the matter. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do, then you have my most sincere apologies in advance.
I've been an ardent supporter of Epic/Mythic level play and that's not likely to change. I've played post-20th level characters in 1st, 2nd, and 3-3.5 edition. I've run more post-20 level sessions than anyone in my area and I can honestly say that when my players do not reach 20th because of the level cap of an adventure path, they look to me to take them beyond that point. Sure over the years I've done my share of deific involvement and have even allowed some of my players' characters to become proto-deities, but that wasn't necessarily the end-all and be-all for them. Things like the return of an adversary long thought dead, one that has been following their every move just waiting for the right opportunity to strike back at them has been just as effective in challenging my players as facing down demon lords and godlings. As long as the rules can help me with my ideas to provide them the challenge they're looking for, that's my number one priority.
On a side note, I've also had a problem with those that do not like Epic/Mythic content complaining about post-20th level feeling more like a superhero campaign. Considering that comic books are the modern way of creating and passing on mythology, I see that more as a compliment than an insult. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but by default, the PCs are superheroes. Its an interesting concept, I admit, but that doesn't change the truth of it. If you can accept the fact that your campaign setting has NPC heroes and that the PCs can exceed their abilities, then that takes them beyond being mere heroes and in fact turns them into superheroes. That's just the way it is. No getting around it. It may not be as obvious to some, but it is still nonetheless a true statement.
Now I don't mean to be condescending with my words, but I find...
+1 I agree. Someone has read The Blackest Night of DC that's EPIC. I want a campaign like that
I want 20+ level content.
What I want even more is for Paizo to decide whether or not they are going to do it. I don't feel they need to rush it. But a statement saying Yes or No would be really useful. Even if a yes comes with a caveat like not before 2015, etc.
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I want 20+ level content.
What I want even more is for Paizo to decide whether or not they are going to do it. I don't feel they need to rush it. But a statement saying Yes or No would be really useful. Even if a yes comes with a caveat like not before 2015, etc.
I hope they try and tackle a high-level play guide for 13-20 before deciding. If it turns out that they can make everything suitably epic withing those levels, why bother going past 20th? Conversely, if it turns out the 13-20 is made polished, but there's still something "missing", the case will be that much stronger for a 21st+ product.
Right now the thing that is missing is nascent demon/devil lords. They won't stat them up until the hard cap is known. And those should be defeatable foes.
As a GM for a high level game, I can say the rules work as is. Right now what I need most is more high level foes in the CR 15-25 range.
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I hope they try and tackle a high-level play guide for 13-20 before deciding. If it turns out that they can make everything suitably epic withing those levels, why bother going past 20th? Conversely, if it turns out the 13-20 is made polished, but there's still something "missing", the case will be that much stronger for a 21st+ product.
I think it would be possible to accomplish all the things that I want to do in a high level game in the post 13th - 20th level area. At the very least this should be the time to lay the groundwork for a mythic level post 20th game. This is the time frame were you kill off the competition either by out competing them or just murdering them, consolidate your power base and get filthy stinking rich. Once you hit 20th your are a legend. There has been no one like you since the gods walk the worlds. Your thieves guild now spans continents. You are the general of an army tens of thousands strong. You are the corsair captain whose name is muttered with fear and respect. You mastery of magic has made you the most powerful being in the civilized world. Your understanding of the savage beauty of natural world has turned you into a force of nature.
I absolutely agree that we should get a specific book on how to run the post 13th levels before we get one for post 20th play. However, I do eventually want to see both full done and supported. You could even put both in the same book to make the transition seamless. With the Core book you could run a complete game all the way to 20th if you wanted to. The Mythic level guide picks up at 13ish and goes all the way to 36th.
I would prefer a book that cover 13th - 20th for Core end game content and a Mythic level book that covers 21st - 36th level but includes more options for 13th - 20th leading into mythic level.
SM
As stated on the parent thread, yes to mythic level content, my money's ready to be spent.
I also want an epic level book and I´d buy it
Do want epic rules.
I can not understand the need for content for levels 13 to 20, What is the problem with the current rules?
and please do not tell me that the problem is things like: scry, teleport, time stop, wish, etc... because if that's the problem then your problem is not the rules are the spellcasters. And remember if a player can then GM can also. By the way in ELH are some advice about that spells
I can not understand the need for content for levels 13 to 20, What is the problem with the current rules?
and please do not tell me that the problem is things like: scry, teleport, time stop, wish, etc... because if that's the problem then your problem is not the rules are the spellcasters. And remember if a player can then GM can also. By the way in ELH are some advice about that spells
There are three things I'm looking for wrt 13-20th level play:
1) A taste of high level - I would like to be persuaded that epic level play can be fun and I see this as a good step.
2) Rules broadening characters rather than deepening them. It seems to me that the rules for 12-20 level play are 'just like low levels but better' and in my mind characters of such power should be qualitatively different from low level characters. I'd like to see Paizo's take on how a rogue may found a thieves guild and drive his competitors out of the market, how a cleric can spread the word and found a new church or a new sect of a current church, rules covering building up a merchant empire, influence/politics rules, stuff like that. It seems to me that the skill system is asked to do an awful lot and I wouldnt mind betting that, if Paizo turned their minds to it, they would be able to create some interesting, playable and flavorful mechanics to support these kinds of themes in a more in-depth way.
3) Help as a GM. Part of the reason I dont like high level play is because I suck at running high level games. I dont make good high level adventures and I'm not always across the rules enough to anticipate problems. (One of my all time favorite passages from Paizo is the Gamemastery Guide comments about "things which can break the game" - those few pages did wonders for me, however obvious they are to other people). To be quite honest, I have more excellent 1st level adventures from Paizo than I could ever need (not that I dont want more) - high level play is harder for me and there does seem to be a historical bias against the upper levels (presumably since the demand for those is significantly lower).
Epic me, please.
Screw it. I wasn't really going to pick a side, but give me Mythic rules. I'm going to want to roll my 36th level Monk again someday...
I forsee ... rules for monks that allow 36 levels but only if you take Vow of Poverty ...
I'm in favor of this, but I'd like to see more 12-20 products first.
Baby steps, my friends.
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I want epic; I'm patient though; don't need it for another 2 years yet.