I know where you're coming from with classes you don't like. I can't ever see myself playing a ninja, samurai, or gunslinger.
But I used to say that about the alchemist and witch. Hate the flavour of the standard alchemist and witch, especially the alchemist. The idea of some guy carrying around these chemicals he just happens to be able to mix on the fly within 3 seconds perfectly so they blow up was a huge suspension of disbelief that I didn't think I could get over.
Then, just for the heck of it, I tried a witch/alchemist (vanilla witch, mindchemist alchemist archetype). I refluffed the alchemist stuff as different manners of witch's brew concoctions and focused hard on making a debuffing machine. Debuffing builds in general never interested me, so this was a really big brussel sprouts experiment all around.
The game started at 7th level, and my witch totally "pwned" the pair of huge magma elementals the group started against. Within a few rounds, she had the main damage dealer enlarged, and both elementals had -4 Dex, -2 AC, -2 to attacks, reduced to half speed, and one of them pinned to the ground completely. Probably one of the more enjoyable battles I've had in a PbP game.
I'm hoping we run into all the other deadly sins out there, and she fails her saves against all of them. Who wouldn't want to see Sophy overcome with lust? The only question is, which of the party members would be her target? And how upset would Victor be if it wasn't him? ;)
Mmmmm...lust. <drools>
On a "serious" note, if it's not Victor, he will probably explode in a jealous rage and go ape(you-know-what) on whoever it is until there is nothing left of him except for a bloody pulp. (Of course, if it's Kern, then Victor would gladly accept death, as either way, he wins.) :)
Now speaking of witch, THAT is one class I've wanted to try. Mainly because I want to use the spell: vomit swarm. THAT would just be totally cool. I mean, come on, spewing a swarm of bugs from your mouth? How is that not cool?!
Speaking of cavaliers (which I also don't like) - the samurai alternate class (which I *do* like) gets a really cool archetype in Dragon Empires Primer.
Also a great witch archetype, and bard one too. I'm so-so about the ranger one.
In my experience, when played well, the bard can easily be the most important member of a party. I have a friend who's a master at the bard and he has saved more lives with that class more times than any other one character class I've seen. It's amazing how effectively versatile they can be.
Joana has mislead all of you. Her street performer bard was the most effective character has been pivotal in every battle she was in. She didn't do the most damage, but her actions not only prevented a TPK, but also helped to keep a house from falling over a cliff and onto a crowded neighborhood.
Well, she's only been in two combats, and the first one all she did was get killed; only DM ex machina retconned her out of that. The second one, she had one well-timed spell that prevented the bad guy from casting, but her main contribution was to run to the door and yell for help from an NPC. Which admittedly turned the tide of the battle but had nothing to do with her own mechanics. :)
Wander, you're right in that Inspire Courage all by itself is one of the most powerful effects in the game. I just find it insanely boring to play. Everyone else in the party loves the bard with IC, but I can't stand being it. I'm too much of an attention whore to enjoy playing a support role. The street performer archetype replaces IC, which is why I gave it a spin, but it's definitely a step down in the power department.
Bard and inquisitor are actually a couple of classes that sound fantastic from a flavor standpoint, but I find the mechanics underwhelming. I'd love to play an inquisitor-type character, but every time I try to work one up, the class abilities don't seem to match up very well with my conception of what I think the inquisitor should do.
Maybe this strikes your fancy: the Dragon Empires Primer "Lotus Geisha" archetype (for bard) - a master of seduction, the lotus geisha's primary change in class ability is replacing "Versatile Performance" (which I imagine you like) with "Enrapturing Performance" - which essentially allows you to use your bardic performances on a single target. If it is an ally, that ally gains the usual benefits increased by +1. If it is an enemy, the DC is increased by +2 (for example for fascinate, suggestion or frightening tune). She also gains Spell Focus (enchantment) at level 1, and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) at level 5 instead of bardic knowledge and lore master.
Just out of interest, what do you consider exciting mechanics?
Actually, I'm not a big fan of Versatile Peformance as written. Unless you're creating a character at a higher level, there's too much waste of skill points. By the time you reach 20th level, a big percentage of the skill points you've allocated aren't even being used any more because you're using your Perform skill instead. Plus, by handing them out every four levels, you're forcing the bard to have several types of performance they're good at, most likely chosen not because they fit the character concept but to avoid Versatile Performance overlap.
That said, Enrapturing Performance doesn't sound like something I'd jump at, either. Fascinate and Suggestion virtually never get used in actual play because the rest of the party has already gone into combat. (I have a bard in the Second Darkness game I've been running in RL, and he's used Fascinate/Suggestion exactly twice in eleven levels, once when he was separated from the rest of the party and once when they were trying to sneak in somewhere without someone sounding the alarm. He couldn't have used Enrapturing Performance either time, because the bad guys came in pairs.) Giving one ally a bigger bonus isn't any more exciting to me than giving all my allies a smaller bonus. It still means I'm a support character. The only reason I gave Street Performer a try is that it replaces Inspire Courage with an ability that basically says Look at me! Look at me! Look at me! and ignore the rest of those boring people over there doing boring things.
Not a fan of the enchantment school, either. You still have to deal with anyone you've charmed after the spell wears off, so all you've done is postpone and complicate the encounter. I still remember 2e charm that lasted days to weeks, so the 3.x version seems like a complete waste of time.
Exciting mechanics? Flashy things, like magic missiles and fireballs. Things that allow me to affect not just one guy I'm fighting but the whole battlefield. Things that make it clear that my character has actually done something. (In the case of my Street Performer, she actually was crucial to the boss battle. Only she got absolutely no credit for it IC; as far as her colleagues are concerned, she's still a waste of space, as she never actually hurt the bad guy. And the PCs aren't aware that her hideous laughter actually prevented him from casting -- you can't prove a negative -- so it didn't look like she accomplished anything to them.) Buffing and debuffing is boring to me.
Once again, I know that all the stuff I enjoy is mechanically inferior and that the buff/debuff role is really valuable. I just don't have any fun doing it.
Just took me 20 minutes to edit and update Melon's attack. Something is not kosher with my net access right now. Fails and then fails some more.
Regarding the enrapturing performance: you can use it to give yourself a bigger bonus; so you are better at doing whatever you do to help in combat (rapier, bow, ?).
Really? I am way fond of AOE evocations. Fireball is the thing of legends! I'll take a cool fireball over a haste any day (in part because my monk can do his own "haste" anyway, and has evasion to help along with the pyrotechnicals).
But, as already stated, I'm not a big fan of being in combat. :)
Giving a bard a +2 to attack instead of the rest of the party (which I'm assuming will have some combat-focused characters) a +1 is a net minus to the group. Now if the bard is fighting alone for some reason, sure, it's handy. But, like using Fascinate/Suggestion vs. a single target, too nichey to come up more than a few times in a standard campaign.
Really? I am way fond of AOE evocations. Fireball is the thing of legends! I'll take a cool fireball over a haste any day (in part because my monk can do his own "haste" anyway, and has evasion to help along with the pyrotechnicals).
Well, read all the Guides to spellcasters and such threads, and they'll be happy to point out how blaster wizards and evokers are a complete joke, optimization-wise. :)
hahaha - I know the evoker hate they have; but a blaster might not be optimized, but its (a) fun, and (b) obviously contributes meaningfully.
So where's Corinna's burning hands and wand of magic missile? ;)
She's not an evoker. I ran an evoker once (although she only made it to 2nd level before the campaign ended) and didn't want to repeat a character. Plus, it doesn't really fit her personality and average charisma; she's not flashy.
Would have been a lot more useful at this stage in her career, though.
You don't have to throw the heat to have an impact. Obviously this group doesn't need two illusionists, but you can't deny Gilfroy had major contributions at the battle on the bridge, smashing the goblins' ambush with two cantrips and a Bluff check in a showy fashion. I don't know if he's even inflicted a single point of damage, but I haven't ever felt useless.
I'm no wizard fan, but I don't understand why there's hate for an Evoker. That or Transmutation would be the way I would go if I played a wizard.
Evoker's blow things up! That's just greatness! So, now I'm curious why there is hate for Evoker's? (I don't read the threads. Too much complaining. Matter of fact, I have them all shut down.) :)
I'm no wizard fan, but I don't understand why there's hate for an Evoker. That or Transmutation would be the way I would go if I played a wizard.
Evoker's blow things up! That's just greatness! So, now I'm curious why there is hate for Evoker's? (I don't read the threads. Too much complaining. Matter of fact, I have them all shut down.) :)
Excerpt on why blasting is for stupid people who don't know how to build wizards:
The first point is that in 3.0, blast spells became in inefficient way to do damage. Look at a fireball for example. Cast by a 5th level wizard it does 5d6 damage...but not really, saving throws can reduce that by half, evasion can eliminate it entirely, and improved evasion will at least cut it in half. Then you take into account fire resistance (AFTER the save), which will very commonly reduce it further by 5, 10, 20, or even offer full immunity...and fire resistance and immunity is common. In the end, that Fireball will do 20 points of damage if you are lucky, more likely, anywhere from 5 to 10 damage. So how many creatures that you fight at level 5 can take that? Yep...all of them, while laughing at you. Now how much damage does a Haste spell do? Well, you would need to take one average attack from every party member for every round of duration and add them together. The number will vary, but it will dwarf the damage of a fireball spell. You don't get the glory, but you did the right thing.
Then the second point is a tactical one. HP damage in Pathfinder does NOT decrease your ability to fight. The big bad monster with 1 HP has just as deadly attack as the big bad monster with 100 hp. "Softening" up the enemy with a blast spell may or may not change the time it takes the rest of the party to drop the enemy, but it does nothing to ensure their safety during that time. Giving your allies a tactical or mechanical advantage prevents party deaths. Throw a blast when you have nothing better to do, but never throw one when you have one of your 3 jobs to do.
I'm not saying you should never do pure blast. In fact, my own wizards usually have a blast or two at hand. I'm just saying that blasting is something you do after you've ensured tactical advantage in the combat. Blasting in combat should be....what comes after tertiary?
The "three jobs" he mentions are battlefield control, debuffing, and buffing. So, interesting, boring, and even more boring.
You don't have to throw the heat to have an impact. Obviously this group doesn't need two illusionists, but you can't deny Gilfroy had major contributions at the battle on the bridge, smashing the goblins' ambush with two cantrips and a Bluff check in a showy fashion. I don't know if he's even inflicted a single point of damage, but I haven't ever felt useless.
Well, Corinna does. :P
When you can cure and Channel Positive Energy, you always have something to do in a fight, though. Most of the combats Douena has been in, she's never even drawn her weapon, but between healing and Bit of Luck, I've never felt short of options playing her. It was kind of a running joke her first level that Bit of Luck rarely worked -- either the first roll was high enough or both rolls were abysmal -- but she always felt like she had something interesting to do.
That whole discussion about the ineffectiveness of a blaster is why I don't spend time on optimization threads. I'm not playing D&D to get the best numerical advantage. I just want to have fun. Blasting can be fun. So can conjuration and buffing (for me). The one wizard character I ever really enjoyed playing was a 3.5 wizard with a vow of non-violence. All he ever did was buff people and counter.
But that's just me.
Yeah, the problem with the whole "evokers are crap" argument is that it's only true if you're playing in a group in which everyone is optimizing their characters to the fullest extent. But if people aren't worried about making the best, most-optimized character ever, then evokers work just fine. And they can be lots of fun.
That whole discussion about the ineffectiveness of a blaster is why I don't spend time on optimization threads. I'm not playing D&D to get the best numerical advantage. I just want to have fun. Blasting can be fun. So can conjuration and buffing (for me). The one wizard character I ever really enjoyed playing was a 3.5 wizard with a vow of non-violence. All he ever did was buff people and counter.
But that's just me.
Totally agree. That actually sounds like a fun wizard to play. I have an RL cleric that did nothing but cast buff/protective/healing spells. He was pretty much a non-factor in combat because the rest of the party was combat enough. I always enjoyed it, though.
I can understand why you feel like Corinna is useless. Mainly because she is. :)
(I tried to come up with something intelligent and wise to say to help you, but, I ain't that intelligent and wise. Sorry, Joana.) ;)
Those d6s do love rolling 1s and 2s...
Those d6s do love rolling 1s and 2s...
You must have accidentally picked up Douena's channel dice. ;)
I see as she's more unskilled or inexperienced. Right now she doesn't think like an adventurer. I figure that given time, she'll come into her own. I'd suggest Malan as a tutor in combat magics if he could ever manage to stay upright.
That's the plan. I just keep thinking that eventually she'll do something that actually works and things will click, but she just keeps failing over and over again. That Acid Dart might have been her moment if it weren't for the shooting-into-melee penalty.
If Malan could do something combat-related with the spells in her spellbook, he'd be quite the tutor.
I can understand why you feel like Corinna is useless. Mainly because she is. :)
You'd better watch out or she'll arcane mark you! :P
"Do you think we killed a type of vampire?" Melon looks up interested from her search for left-overs. "Maybe Tevyn and Malan are slowly turning into one of these creatures - Tevyn might have never found one in these swamps because that one was only recently turned!"
I knew Melon was trying to channel Douena in a sort of personal boundaries trespassing kind of way.
I knew Melon was trying to channel Douena in a sort of personal boundaries trespassing kind of way."Do you think we killed a type of vampire?" Melon looks up interested from her search for left-overs. "Maybe Tevyn and Malan are slowly turning into one of these creatures - Tevyn might have never found one in these swamps because that one was only recently turned!"
You just try to organize a date with Ameiko behind Melon's back - tiaras will be the least of your worries ;) hahahaha
Just because, I went back and looked at all of Corinna's actions in combat. Out of 20 rounds of combat, she has:
and
That's pathetic. You'd think she'd succeed at accomplishing something at least once in twenty rounds just by dumb luck.
It also proves that Corinna's been acting under a star of great misfortune. Her combat track record is clearly statistically improbable; which is not a reflection on her build at all then.
...though for the sake of her own pride, maybe she should prepare a magic missile when she has a chance. (And run up against the only skeleton in existence with shield cast.)
...though for the sake of her own pride, maybe she should prepare a magic missile when she has a chance. (And run up against the only skeleton in existence with shield cast.)
Not in her spellbook. Only conjuration spells.
Hm, what are the odds of rolling 10 d20 with no results above 13?
I believe the percentage chance of rolling 13 or less is 65%. Therefore, doing it ten times in a row equals 0.65^10, which equals a 1.35% chance, which, given a normal distribution over enough trials, is still less than three standard deviations from the mean.
The probability is about 1.35%. So not very likely, but not so unlikely that seeing it happen is a phenomenal event. :)
Edit: Ninja'd by Nazard.
Remind me to never get into any form of a mathematical duel with you fellas. :)
So, Joana, why conjuration? Why not TRANSMUTATION!!!! Or, whatever else.
So, Joana, why conjuration? Why not TRANSMUTATION!!!! Or, whatever else.
As I recall, it was process of elimination. Evocation would have been my first choice, but I'd already run an evoker. Plus, I already had the concept of an academic wizard forced out of the ivory tower, and an evoker would already have the adventuring temperament. Conjuration seemed to be the next school down with spells I like to cast. Abjuration and divination are too passive; enchantment seems to match up with a higher Cha than Corinna would have; I don't like using illusions because they're too subjective and prone to a lot of DM adjudication; necromancy's too evil; and transmutation's powers are more fitting to a wizard who plans to be in combat, plus I don't like all the shaping/polymorphing. (One of the reasons I don't like druids -- I have no interest in wildshape.)
You should try running a character who has absolutely no power, has an infinite amount of intelligence and charisma as your only weapon, which, somehow, makes you absolutely impossible to defeat in any given situation.
And possibly wear a bowtie. 'Cause bowtie's are cool. ;)
Personally I'm not fond of Conjuration - for the same reason I don't like the summoner class. Is always a headache with 4 times more friendlies than hostiles, and it takes forever to go through 1d4+1 rats or whatever.
At the table, I 'd agree. One of the reasons I don't like PCs with mounts, animal companions, familiars, or figurines of wondrous power is that we always end up forgetting to roll for them. In a PbP setting, the pace is so much slower, it shouldn't make a difference, particularly as long as summonees go on the summoner's initiative: it's just one post with extra rolls in it.
(Summoners, the base class, I dislike because I've never seen one that wasn't overpowered. If it's a PC, it overshadows the rest of the party, and if it's a bad guy, it's too strong for the CR, in my experience.)
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Yeah, the problem with the whole "evokers are crap" argument is that it's only true if you're playing in a group in which everyone is optimizing their characters to the fullest extent. But if people aren't worried about making the best, most-optimized character ever, then evokers work just fine. And they can be lots of fun.
You can optimise an evoker, it just takes a hell of a lot more work and thought than most other casters. And its something you have to pretty much dedicate your feats and traits to from level 1.
Even then... you only start to see payoff around level 5.
Sorry for the random thread intrusion, I just hear that evocation is useless etc. a lot and its not necessarily true :).
No worries about the intrusion. :)
I agree with you, really. I actually rather enjoy taking combinations that are generally considered "bad" and making them work.
No worries about the intrusion. :)
I agree with you, really. I actually rather enjoy taking combinations that are generally considered "bad" and making them work.
Hello!! Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge, anyone?
No worries about the intrusion. :)
I agree with you, really. I actually rather enjoy taking combinations that are generally considered "bad" and making them work.
Ditto!
Hey, Wander, I got my case of minis today. The "human" ranger looks just like Tevyn's avatar. He's even got his hood up to hide his ears. :)
Hey, Wander, I got my case of minis today. The "human" ranger looks just like Tevyn's avatar. He's even got his hood up to hide his ears. :)
I got mine today too. I haven't seen the ranger yet though...I'll have to take a look at it!
Hey all! So sorry for the slowness of late. It's been a crazy month. However, the craziness is about to end. I actually have a day off on Monday! Yay! In fact, all of next week is really light, so I can get things moving again. The main problem has been that I just haven't been able to get the maps for the next section ready. Once I have them, there will be no further delays.
Again, sorry for the slowness. Things will return to normal very soon!
The incident doesn't see to have melted Gilfroy's suspicions any.
I vote we make Tevyn our leader and give him the power to issue orders to everyone! Gilfroy would like that. ;)
(Sorry; inside joke from another thread.)
I took a look at the Ranger mini the other day, and you're right, Joana. That one's perfect for Tevyn. I kinda wish I were playing him in a table game just so I could use it.
I vote we make Tevyn our leader and give him the power to issue orders to everyone! Gilfroy would like that. ;)
Tevyn's first order would be for Gilfroy to make his hair less outlandish so it wouldn't attract so much attention in the jungle. I'm sure Gilfroy would really like that. :)
Can we walk in two at a time? If so, maybe this: Malan and Melon. Rajah and Tevyn or Gilfroy and Tevyn. Then Gilfroy and Corinna or Rajah and Corinna. Depending on where Gilfroy prefers.
Otherwise; Malan, Melon, Tevyn, Rajah or Gilfroy, then Corinna. Is that cool with all of y'all? I'm just throwing it out there. Not sure what everyone's preference is. I was thinking Gilfroy behind Tevyn moreso than myself with all the guidance he slaps on people. But either way, it matters little to me.
The cave entrance is wide enough to walk in two at a time if you wish.