And you're doing a good job of it. :P
Honestly, not joking at all, the thought of possibly having to share a wagon with Melon is a huge barrier to my coming up with any female character to go on this trip. She's actively off-putting and creepy as heck, and it makes me less able to warm up to Ameiko that this is her "best friend."
I mean, speaking as an actual woman, I'm skeeved. Restraining order territory, not "let's share a wagon with no personal space for months on end."
I mean, speaking as an actual woman, I'm skeeved. Restraining order territory, not "let's share a wagon with no personal space for months on end."
Me too. Speaking as a guy, there's no way I'd want to be cooped up with her for weeks on end in a wagon. I'd be every bit as repulsed if Melon were male, for that matter.
I've been seeing it as more a matter that Ameiko is Melon's best friend than the other way around. If it turned out that Ameiko considered Melon to be the same way, well then Tevyn might start considering turning his affections to someone more appropriate.
I get the low charisma point but I think Melon's coming across more as someone with a 5 or 6 charisma than an 8. At least, in my experience.
You could've used her looks for her Charisma.(At least in my opinion) With her personality, you should be somewhere around the 5 range. Some serious dumpstatting.
And to further run my mouth, I'm gonna comment on what Joana said about her and Ameiko being best friends. I can't really see Melon being a best friend to Ameiko. Especially considering how polite and proper Ameiko is. I just don't see it. Like at all. Not even close. No way no how. It's like putting a rabid dog and an angry cat in the same room, and saying they're friends. Makes zero sense.
I guess I could see Melon thinking, "Well, I'm Ameiko's best friend." While Ameiko's thinking, "Yeah. That's Melon. I'm not sure why she constantly hangs around me."
Edit: Hah! Edged out by the Wander Weir. ;)
Don't worry. If it comes to it, Gilfroy will bunk with her, if only to keep Rajah away. :)
As for your problem coming up with a female character that would bunk with Melon, here's a solution. Don't. Try a male character.
Me too. Speaking as a guy, there's no way I'd want to be cooped up with her for weeks on end in a wagon. I'd be every bit as repulsed if Melon were male, for that matter.
Did you read Wander's post? +1 on the entirety of it, by the way.
I don't care if Joana runs a troll. It doesn't change the fact that Melon is still quite disturbing.(And I'll leave it at that, just to be nice)
Nah. I don't like playing men. I know from personal experience that the number of men who can believably play female characters is a lot lower than the number of men who think they can believably play female characters. I'm not interested in being unintentionally humorous or offensive. This AP feels like a more dramatic plot than a wild and zany one, and I don't feel qualified to delve into the psyche of a man's soul.
I'll just bow out if it comes to that. I'm in other games with everyone here, so I won't "miss" anyone.
I know from personal experience that the number of men who can believably play female characters is a lot lower than the number of men who think they can believably play female characters.
THIS is the absolute truth. You cats who think you can play chicks, I can count on 2 MAYBE 3 fingers of those that can. I'm in several pbp's with guys playing chicks, and the majority of 'em are, "meh". I can say that Navior is one of those that pulls it off quite well. A real classy job there, Navior. Kudos.
Did you read Wander's post? +1 on the entirety of it, by the way.
Thanks!
For the record, my opinion as stated was the player's opinion, not Tevyn's opinion. Tevyn's fine with Melon as long as she doesn't start getting all touchy-feely with him. As far as he can tell, pretty much everyone's a freak and he's content to treat everyone the same in that regard.
The only interest I've ever had in playing female characters is in having access to their avatar pics (or the various art available for offline playing as well). I do my best when I'm dealing with an NPC as a DM but I know it's not to my strength and I have no desire to make a fool of myself. I did it just once briefly in a pbp that lasted about a week and a half and I'm fine with not doing it again.
I know from personal experience that the number of men who can believably play female characters is a lot lower than the number of men who think they can believably play female characters.THIS is the absolute truth. You cats who think you can play chicks, I can count on 2 MAYBE 3 fingers of those that can. I'm in several pbp's with guys playing chicks, and the majority of 'em are, "meh". I can say that Navior is one of those that pulls it off quite well. A real classy job there, Navior. Kudos.
Fortunately I am not burdened with trying to play a believable girl. Too much time is wasted trying to adhere or measure up to some quasi-standard of behavior that is in its own way as demeaning to women as any of the poorly played female characters. I want none of that, I think too often people get bogged down with what is/is-not suitable for a girl/guy to do - and that completely ruins the chance to explore a character. Some characters are good at empathy and sympathy, others aren't - Melon is in the later category.
I mostly play guys, but I do play a paladin girl (Jemini) in a different pbp; who's worlds distinct from Melon - and would be... let's say socially acceptable in this group. I don't have Melon be who she is because I think that's how girls behave (or should behave or anything). It is the personality that I've decided for her, simple as that.
Now don't let it end there, we're going no a whole journey - and for Melon it will be a journey of "finding herself" going from vastly scattered interests to a focused person. That comes along with changes in how Melon behaves (a growing-up if you will). I expect that to be settled around level 6 or 7. For now I'm trying for "crude but has heart in right place".
So in that context:
Lore. Dude. Must you always be so disgusting? Seriously. Is this what we have to constantly look forward too?
Though I'm flattered that it is addressed at me as a player, it is something that The Blue Rajah would do much better by addressing Melon in-character in suitable times of heart-to-heart.
It's a perspective fallacy. There's few guys that roleplay guys well. Just because they are male doesn't make them good roleplayers that represent maleness well in their characters. Likewise, it is wrong to think female gamers roleplay girls correctly. "She's a girl, of course she's roleplaying a girl right" - would be a rubbish argument as it supposes that players can roleplay well in the first place.
I think rather than saying "this character isn't representing their gender well", it is better to ask "what makes this character tick the way (s)he does?"
...needless to say, there are plenty of examples of guys living out their adolescent fantasies when playing a girl. That is a distinct issue.
I know from personal experience that the number of men who can believably play female characters is a lot lower than the number of men who think they can believably play female characters.THIS is the absolute truth. You cats who think you can play chicks, I can count on 2 MAYBE 3 fingers of those that can. I'm in several pbp's with guys playing chicks, and the majority of 'em are, "meh". I can say that Navior is one of those that pulls it off quite well. A real classy job there, Navior. Kudos.
Why, thank you, Javell! I appreciate the compliment.
That said, I think the question of how well people can play cross-gender characters is side-stepping the real issue, and that's the fact the some people find Melon disturbing. And from the comments here, it's not just characters finding her actions creepy; it's players too. And that means it's an issue that needs to be addressed.
I don't like telling people how to play their characters, but if players are being creeped out by a character's actions, then I have to step in. Melon needs to be toned down.
Now don't let it end there, we're going no a whole journey - and for Melon it will be a journey of "finding herself" going from vastly scattered interests to a focused person. That comes along with changes in how Melon behaves (a growing-up if you will). I expect that to be settled around level 6 or 7. For now I'm trying for "crude but has heart in right place".
The problem is, level 6 or 7 can be a looooong time in pbp. After over a year and a half of Serpent's Skull, the characters are only now getting close to level 5. That's a very long time for people's discomfort regarding Melon to fester.
And I address the following to everyone: There comes a point when "That's not what my character would do" just doesn't cut it. You, as a player, create how your character ticks and sometimes, you need to tweak those decisions a little bit. This game needs to be fun for everyone. If your character is creeping the other players out, adjust that character's actions so that the character is still fun for you but doesn't creep the other players out. If your character doesn't have a reason to travel with the group, create a reason. Most of the time, these only need to be small changes, so small that if the "That's not what my character would do" line hadn't been brought out first, no one else would even notice the change. Most of your character is in your head. Other people only see the actions of that character and create their impressions based on those actions. That leaves a lot of leeway for what actions you can take.
People frequently compliment me on my characters and NPCs, so I'm going to give what I consider my number-one trick to creating believable and interesting characters: Don't create a plan. Create a background and create goals. But do not decide in advance that your character is going to do this and this and this and is going to develop in exactly this way. Or if you do, be willing to change that plan at the drop of a hat because 9 times out of 10, other things happen that make that plan impossible, such as other players being creeped out by your character before she has a chance to blossom into the beautiful person she is inside.
Okay, that's enough ranting from me.
Let's get back to playing and having fun. :)
...That said, I think the question of how well people can play cross-gender characters is side-stepping the real issue, and that's the fact the some people find Melon disturbing. And from the comments here, it's not just characters finding her actions creepy; it's players too. And that means it's an issue that needs to be addressed.
I don't like telling people how to play their characters, but if players are being creeped out by a character's actions, then I have to step in. Melon needs to be toned down.
Now don't let it end there, we're going no a whole journey - and for Melon it will be a journey of "finding herself" going from vastly scattered interests to a focused person. That comes along with changes in how Melon behaves (a growing-up if you will). I expect that to be settled around level 6 or 7. For now I'm trying for "crude but has heart in right place".
The problem is, level 6 or 7 can be a looooong time in pbp. After over a year and a half of Serpent's Skull, the characters are only now getting close to level 5. That's a very long time for people's discomfort regarding Melon to fester.
And I address the following to everyone: There comes a point when "That's not what my character would do" just doesn't cut it. You, as a player, create how your character ticks and sometimes, you need to tweak those decisions a little bit. This game needs to be fun for everyone. If your character is creeping the other players out, adjust that character's actions so that the character is still fun for you but doesn't creep the other players out. If your character doesn't have a reason to travel with the group, create a reason. Most of the time, these only need to be small changes, so small that if the "That's not what my character would do" line hadn't been brought out first, no one else would even notice the change. Most of your character is in your head. Other people only see the actions of that character and create their impressions based on those actions. That leaves a lot of leeway for what actions you can take.
People frequently compliment me on my characters and NPCs, so I'm going to give what I consider my number-one trick to creating believable and interesting characters: Don't create a plan. Create a background and create goals. But do not decide in advance that your character is going to do this and this and this and is going to develop in exactly this way. Or if you do, be willing to change that plan at the drop of a hat because 9 times out of 10, other things happen that make that plan impossible, such as other players being creeped out by your character before she has a chance to blossom into the beautiful person she is inside.
Okay, that's enough ranting from me.
Let's get back to playing and having fun. :)
An absolute +1.
For the moment, presume Corinna has continued on home, so I don't hold up the discussions. About to leave the house.
For the moment, presume Corinna has continued on home, so I don't hold up the discussions. About to leave the house.
Sure thing. Have a good trip! Enjoy the Canyon!
+1 to above.
A prime example of that would be Malan, actually. The character was coming across as grating, even nastier than Dax originally intended, but a few minor personality shifts, and he still retains his aloof flavour and certainly isn't anybody folks would care to follow into battle and certain death, but he's a guy Gilfroy likes to have by his side (or at least his front).
Plus he makes a great tripping hazard for the enemy!
By the way, if there's stuff about Gilfroy that bothers people, let's get it out in the open now. I realize he might have come across pretty strongly about that whole Tevyn/Rajah accusing him of being a thief (in his own mind) episode. He was always meant to be volatile and quick tempered, then quick to forget, but if that's not working, let me know now. It's much more important that we all have fun then I stay true to some preconceived notion of who my character is and to hell with the rest of the PCs.
Gilfroy isn't bothering me. I understand where he's coming from and I enjoyed his reaction to Tevyn's overreaction. I don't think we need to have everything be rainbows and unicorns in the group. Some conflict is good as long as it doesn't fester into a cancer.
Have fun on your trip, Joana!
Be safe, Joana!
And +1 to Navior. Melon will take it to heart.
As per Gilfroy: Rajah's taking level in paladin, so, not sure how that's gonna affect Gilfroy. I will say this, I really don't want to spend post after post fighting with him, if he decides to continue with the irritation of me being sanctimonious. I've been trying to tone it down, but being a paladin, there's only gonna be so much I can do. I got no problem with him not liking Rajah, I just really don't want to battle him constantly about it.
You see what happened with Aago. How I messed that up by constantly being a chump. I should've done that a lot different. Big time mistake by me. I'm doing my best to avoid that again.
Anyhow, that's the one bad thing about running a Lawful good pc.(Paladin in particular.) I'm running a paladin in another thread and we encountered the exact same scenario. It lead to an OOC discussion, just like this one. It was talked out and settled, so no big deal. But Paladin's are tough to run because of how most players just get irritated with them due to this fact.
Oh, it's neither the lawfulness or goodness of Rajah that bother Gilfroy, just the "I believe that this is the thing everybody else should believe and shame on you all for not living up to my high standards" part of Rajah.
I was starting to have trouble imagining why Gilfroy would have been friends with Rajah in the first place if this is what he's like. Then I just decided that Gilfroy has little flashes of irritation and quickly forgets them, so most of the time he can just shake his head at Rajah's arrogance, but other times he flares up, only to calm down again, hence the "I'm mad at you now, but by tomorrow I'll be over it" speech.
Really, he was just mad because his very good friend Rajah ganged up with Tevyn (a complete stranger) to call him down for something. It wasn't something sanctimonious, he just flat out felt betrayed by a friend he assumed would support him, even if he were wrong, just out of the principle of support your friends.
Aaaaand it is upon us! (Well not you guys, I assume most of you are still a couple of hours away from Friday - but it will reach you too! Oh for sure!).
Behold! National Cleavage Day 2012 on tenletter! :D
I don't know...I just don't get much out of cartoon characters with cleavage.
Oh, it's neither the lawfulness or goodness of Rajah that bother Gilfroy, just the "I believe that this is the thing everybody else should believe and shame on you all for not living up to my high standards" part of Rajah.
I was starting to have trouble imagining why Gilfroy would have been friends with Rajah in the first place if this is what he's like. Then I just decided that Gilfroy has little flashes of irritation and quickly forgets them, so most of the time he can just shake his head at Rajah's arrogance, but other times he flares up, only to calm down again, hence the "I'm mad at you now, but by tomorrow I'll be over it" speech.
Really, he was just mad because his very good friend Rajah ganged up with Tevyn (a complete stranger) to call him down for something. It wasn't something sanctimonious, he just flat out felt betrayed by a friend he assumed would support him, even if he were wrong, just out of the principle of support your friends.
Rajah's intent is not to make others think the same way he does. Never has been. It apparently came across that way, that's why I've been trying to tone it down. But he will stand up for what he believes. And I honestly don't recall ever calling Gilfroy a thief. To me, it seemed more like a big misunderstanding on Gilfroy's part.
Like I said, we can easily know each other, but we don't have to be friends. At least, you don't have to like Rajah. He's still gonna be polite to you--as if you're friends--whether you hate him or not.
Okay, Melon will do her shopping and the like when we got the loot distributed.
I've added a page to the website for the caravan statistics, so that they can easily be kept track of by everyone.
Masterwork cold iron wakizashi: 170 gp
Magical wakizashi: 875 gp if not repaired first, 1170 gp if repaired first
Masterwork shurikens: 20 gp for all 6
Masterwork chain shirt: 125 gp
So there are two questions before us at this point: 1. Can we get the wakizashi fixed? And 2. Does anyone want the chain shirt? Tevyn could actually use the chain shirt but he'd only take it if no one else wanted it.
Everything else going for sale sounds good to me. Then I presume we split it 5 ways since Corinna got so offended in sharing in the reward of the discovery like a commoner.
I've added a page to the website for the caravan statistics, so that they can easily be kept track of by everyone.
Oh, forgot to mention that Ameiko will be providing 2000 gp of initial financing for the caravan.
I don't care if you take the chain shirt, Tevyn.
Gilfroy doesn't need a chain tent, so he's not interested.
To say nothing of the fact that the weight of such a thing would probably kill him.
Any thoughts from anyone else on the caravan? If no one else has anything to say, I'll go with Tevyn's suggestion.
As for the chain shirt, it's looking like Tevyn gets it.
I haven't had a chance to review the caravan rules yet, but Tevyn's suggestions seem like good ideas. What resources are available for purchase for the caravan in Sandpoint? Can we get another wagon, horses, carriage-mounted ballistae, airship, etc?
Regarding caravan building, I/Melon won't push our ideas; but I'd suggest emphasis on speed (i.e. caravan feats that increase speed as well as extra horse trains). I favor the higher speed as it allows faster progress (and horse train can double as emergency rations!)
Regarding stats: I'd prefer to put all eggs in one basket. Since we'll have 4 "heroes" all stats essentially go up by +4 to a base of 5; I'd put emphasis on a single stat that we really feel strongly about. Perhaps Defense, which could then be 8, or Mobility. There's an added benefit here: with a higher base score in a stat we qualify for some better feats early (such as "Faster" or "Expert Travelers").
Also, keep in mind that the caravan should be designed as a level 2 caravan (since we're level 2 now).
I haven't had a chance to look on them myself. But, I'm kinda like Wander in the sense of balance. But there again, I don't know. Lorekeeper might have a good case.
I'll take a look as soon as I can. But if you want to go ahead with a decision, no biggie.
As far as the loot, I feel like we should still split it 6 ways. I just don't feel right for taking Corinna's share. But that's just me.
And what is the total amount we are suppose to be splitting? That way, I can determine how much we are all suppose to get.
As far as the loot, I feel like we should still split it 6 ways. I just don't feel right for taking Corinna's share. But that's just me.And what is the total amount we are suppose to be splitting? That way, I can determine how much we are all suppose to get.
OOC, I agree with you. But Corinna's response was so strong that Tevyn wouldn't want to risk offending her again.
As far as the total amount, it depends on whether or not we can get that broken sword fixed.
OOC, I agree with you. But Corinna's response was so strong that Tevyn wouldn't want to risk offending her again.
Yeah, I didn't think about that. I can understand that.
As far as the total amount, it depends on whether or not we can get that broken sword fixed.
Ah. Gotcha.
We can still let her know that a share is set aside for her if she wished to claim it as spoils from her 'grand adventure' or reward for returning Ameiko's lost family history and heirlooms. If she turns them down, we call it a group fund to be used while on our journey.
That works for me.
As for the Caravan allocations...well, I already made my suggestions. Lorekeeper's ideas are good ones and since he's actually running the AP he probably knows better than I do, but my conservative gaming nature gets nervous about putting all my eggs in one basket. :)
I haven't had a chance to review the caravan rules yet, but Tevyn's suggestions seem like good ideas. What resources are available for purchase for the caravan in Sandpoint? Can we get another wagon, horses, carriage-mounted ballistae, airship, etc?
Ballistae and airships? No. :)
But wagons and horses are certainly available, as are people to hire for various jobs. All the wagons in the Player's Guide are available for purchase, with the exception of the armoured wagon and royal carriage (you wouldn't be able to afford those anyway). There are currently three wagons in the caravan and you are limited to 5 wagons total (unless you take the Extra Wagons feat). You can also buy anything on the Caravan Equipment List in the Player's Guide, except a Ballista. Sandpoint just doesn't have any of those.
Currently, you have two drivers (Bevelek and Vankor) and will need a third. Sandru can fill that role, but that will leave him unavailable for any other duties.
As Lorekeeper rightly pointed out, this is a level 2 caravan (something I had forgotten, too), so you'll be able to choose 2 feats for the caravan. However, Lorekeeper is a bit off on the effective +4 bonus to all stats. Heroes only grant a bonus to Attack (Offence), Security (Mobility), and Resolve (Morale) checks, and not AC (Defence). As such your Defence score is still effectively at a base of 1 (not counting the 3 points you have to distribute). Also, as the bonus is applied to secondary statistics, not the primary ones, you DON'T qualify more quickly for various feats, as those feats require minimum primary stats.
Navior is correct yes, the Hero bonuses are "partial" - and obviously don't count towards your base stats, having at least 3 (and sometimes 5) in a particular stat is required for some of the sexy feats.
But! :D ...there are ballistae for wagons (see player's guide, page 21, bottom right). At 500gp its cheap even. Obviously it isn't a siege-level ballistae - and personally I'm not a fan of wagon-mounted ballistae.
I don't know how Navior will adjust combat/caravan rules, but from my experience GM'ing Jade Regent there's two concerns for caravans: feeding people (consumption can quickly get out-of-hand); and after combat repairs take a lot of supplies, it's not uncommon to have your caravan limp along for a while hoping to find a village or something.
Now, say for instance Malan and Melon were to take up the Guard position. Would their individual +1 bonus to the Attack score, stack?
Can we hire someone else to be a driver? Instead of using Sandru?
Also, what feats do you all think we should roll with?
But! :D ...there are ballistae for wagons (see player's guide, page 21, bottom right). At 500gp its cheap even. Obviously it isn't a siege-level ballistae - and personally I'm not a fan of wagon-mounted ballistae.
Except I mentioned above that you can't get ballistae in Sandpoint. (This is an entirely GM-fiat ruling, I admit. Ballistae just don't seem the kind of thing one would find in Sandpoint. You could commission one to be made, I suppose, but that would take quite a long time.)
I don't know how Navior will adjust combat/caravan rules...
I'm not entirely sure yet either, but it will probably be a modification to how the presence of the PCs affects the outcome of encounters. Whenever I have a moment (which isn't that often, alas), I'm slowly making my way through the threads about the issues and taking note of what other people have been doing. If whatever I decide to do invalidates any decisions the group makes regarding the caravan (feat choices, etc.), I will allow retroactive changes. However, that hopefully won't be necessary.
Can we hire someone else to be a driver? Instead of using Sandru?
Yes, you definitely can, and I would recommend doing so.
Good. Then I think we should do that. I also think we should purchase another Covered Wagon. We're gonna need extra people, so we might as well get another wagon.
An attempting to understand the comsumption business, a single unit of Stores = 10 units of provisions. So if our comsumption = 4, that would mean during two turns of resting, we would have 2 left for the next night. And if we don't replinish our Stores before then, we're in a world of hurt for the next night. Is this correct?
If so, buying another supply wagon as well might be a good idea.
That's if it's even possible to buy such before we leave.
Someone please help me understand this:
Hero: A hero is a highly-trained character capable of performing a variety of roles, from offense to defense. Each hero grants a caravan a +1 morale bonus on Attack, Security, and Resolve checks, to a maximum of +4. The morale bonuses granted by heroes do not count toward the maximum +5 circumstance bonus on each derived statistic’s checks granted by other travelers performing jobs.
Requirement: Only PCs can serve a caravan as a hero, but doing so does not count as a job role—a PC can effectively serve as a hero and any one other job.
So, each of us provide this bonus? So, being 6 of us, that would essentially be +6? I know you can't go above the +4, but, if you could, would this be right?
Seeing how they are all morale bonuses, I would guess they shouldn't stack. And if that's the case, how the heck do you get up to +4?
Edit: Okay. Looking back on Lore's posts, it looks as if it does stack. Which is cool. It seems weird that all those morale bonuses stack, but, there's no other way to get the +4.
So, I guess that answers that.
Okay, I just read this:
Consumption: This value indicates the amount of provisions that your caravan consumes every day. Your caravan’s consumption equals the total number of travelers in your caravan plus the total of all the wagons’ consumption values, modified further by any appropriate
bonuses or penalties.
So, having read that, with our total being 4 for the wagons, and 12 of us(pc's + npc's + 1 more if we hire another driver) that would be 17. Which means, out of our Stores, we need to have 17 provisions for everytime we rest, minimum. Am I reading this right? If so, we ARE going to need another supply wagon just to hold enough dang food.
I like Lore's idea on Mobility, but I'm still with Wander on the whole divide the points bit. But I also see Lore's point on the feats issue. You need a minimum of 3 in most of them, to get some good ones. In the words of Vinny Barbarino, "I'm so confused."
Morale(Resolve) is going to be important. That's the last thing we need is to get beat up by our own people. We NEED to seriously avoid that.
Do we only get the 3 points at first level? That's not an every level type deal, is it? If it's not an every level type thing, is taking a feat the only way to increase this?
Looking at feats, I think Efficient Consumption is gonna be practically necessary. We can go with whatever, but Lore's not kidding on keeping people fed. That can seriously become an issue.
Now as far as repairs, will mending take care of that mostly?
Speaking of which, if I declare myself as "Healer" for the day, does that mean I can do nothing to help with repairs? If mending works, that is. I also have the Craft(carpentry) skill. But either way, it appears I can only choose to do either/or, not both. I can't be the healer and a wainwright or whatever. Is this correct?