So does split form (at 16, right?) grant the eidolon a skill set and feat set while active...?
How does split form work exactly?At level 20, you use the normal eidolon rules to figure out what your 20th-level eido's stats would be if you weren't a synthesist. When you split, you become just-you and the eidolon-suit becomes eidolon-if-you-were-not-a-synthesist.
Seems so based on what SKR said. You essentially develop all the eidolon's stats based on what a normal summoner would get. That includes skills, feats of its own, and mental ability scores.
However, that same phrase that seems to be the only way to justify letting Skilled work for the synthesist seems to also indicate that the synthesist would get her own copy of Increased Ability Score (Intelligence) if the eidolon took that evolution (or would get to "use" the eidolon's copy i.e. gain the benefit from it herself as well).It's basically a ruling to prevent players from cheesing out an extra +2 to the caster's casting ability score by selecting the evolution. Them's the breaks.
what are they actually "cheesing" out? Synthesists max out at 6th lvl spells, currently if you tried to make an offensive caster synthesist, you would not have an effective melee character, and you would also not have an effective caster. You get fewer spells than full casters, your save dc's are lower, and your spell list is lower. If you could atleast buff your charisma using the ability score increase evolution, then you atleast be able to hand out decent save dc's. With your charisma 8 points higher than a sorcerers, at lvl 20, your 6th lvl spells would have a dc 1 higher than a 9th lvl spell. hardly a game breaker here.
This is hardly worthy of a nerf. It just means that evolutions that were never used before will continue to never be used now.
I am hardly seeing the balance issue. what would a boost to charisma or wisdom break? Synthesists already have super high will saves, thus they do not really benefit from further increasing wisdom. And charisma would have only served to help them be offensive casters. something they are already at a handicap for.
Ah. I thought it was a poor rules interpretation based on how the rules are written, but I definitely agree that it's a good balance decision.
I felt the same way, honestly. Ultimately I decided not to bother because my own arguement pretty much nailed it. Why fight for it when it's not really worth it anyways?
I think a huge wisdom would be far more usefl than charisma, but in the end I would personally pick more dex than more wisdom. I would simply focus on wisdom with level ups, tomes, and a magic item. 4 more to wisdom based skills and will save aren't as good as 4 more touch AC, reflex save and initiative.
That's a lot of work. At low levels I gotta figure out the summoner's stats, and then the stats while "synthesized."
At higher levels, I need to know the summoner's stats, the synth-form stats, the summoner's split form stats, AND the base eidolon's stats.
If you know anything about summoners, they are one of the hardest classes to "get right." The complexity is such that I just can't imagine someone making a perfect synthesist past 16th-level on their first try.
what are they actually "cheesing" out? Synthesists max out at 6th lvl spells, currently if you tried to make an offensive caster synthesist, you would not have an effective melee character, and you would also not have an effective caster.However, that same phrase that seems to be the only way to justify letting Skilled work for the synthesist seems to also indicate that the synthesist would get her own copy of Increased Ability Score (Intelligence) if the eidolon took that evolution (or would get to "use" the eidolon's copy i.e. gain the benefit from it herself as well).It's basically a ruling to prevent players from cheesing out an extra +2 to the caster's casting ability score by selecting the evolution. Them's the breaks.
I don't think you've actually seen what a synthesist can do if you think they can't make an effective melee character.
No, you won't have an effective primary caster, but you have much higher survivability than a Wizard of Sorcerer, so you shouldn't have the same DCs as they do.
You get fewer spells than full casters, your save dc's are lower, and your spell list is smaller. If you could atleast buff your charisma using the ability score increase evolution, then you atleast be able to hand out decent save dc's. With your charisma 8 points higher than a sorcerers, at lvl 20, your 6th lvl spells would have a dc 1 higher than a 9th lvl spell. hardly a game breaker here.
A well-rounded class doing something better than the classes whose only strength is that thing - that is a balance breaker.
Not only would the level 6 spells be at a DC 1 higher than a full caster's level 9 spells, but the synthesist's level 1 spells would be at the same DC as the Wizard's level 5 spells. That is in fact balance breaking.
I am hardly seeing the balance issue. what would a boost to charisma or wisdom break? Synthesists already have super high will saves, thus they do not really benefit from further increasing wisdom. And charisma would have only served to help them be offensive casters. something they are already at a handicap for.
Ah. I thought it was a poor rules interpretation based on how the rules are written, but I definitely agree that it's a good balance decision.
Their saving throws do still matter. And yes, making their spell DCs on par and in fact better than the Wizard/Sorcerer's highest level spells is unbalanced, because a synthesist is not a full caster and has many other strengths.
The comparison of the synthesis vs druid has been floating in my head for a while. While the synthesis may not be able to bump his casting ability with evolutions he is still a closer version of the 3.5 druid than the druid is now. The synthesis can deal with the MAD of having both high Str and High caster ability while not ditching everything else. Yes the summoner only has 6 spell levels but a lot of the very good wizard spells are in there. Even Treantmonk would agree that the summoner's spell list is pretty dang good. The spell DC's may be worse because of the lower level but you have a higher starting stat to help make up for it. Also remember that the druid does not have alot of spells per day either unless they ditch their animal companion. Heck druids have to resort to at least a little bit of blasting, something that no one is claiming the summoner should do. I don't think that you can have an awesome spell DC but I do think that you can play the synthesis a little more like a 3.5 druid than the druid.
I have not tried this yet. Has anyone taken a look at the math or tried playing a synthesis that melee's and throws down the save spells?
I don't think you've actually seen what a synthesist can do if you think they can't make an effective melee character.No, you won't have an effective primary caster, but you have much higher survivability than a Wizard of Sorcerer, so you shouldn't have the same DCs as they do.
If you spend nearly 1/3 your evolution points to make your DCs as good as a Wizard or Sorcerer (never mind that your spells aren't as good as theirs for an offensive caster), then no, you're not going to be a very effective melee combatant. Either your offense or your defense is going to suffer for it; there's generally enough points to have a good offense and a good defense with your Eidolon if you spend pretty much everything on them. If you spend 8 points on a stat that isn't in any way relevant to melee combat, you're going to be significantly behind.
EDIT: And I have to laugh at "level 1 spells with level 5 DCs is broken!". It's just a ridiculous statement. There are very, very, very, very few level 1 spells where the DC matters at level 20, and I don't think the Summoner gets any of them.
You can make large biped with 7 primary natural attacks (one being a 1.5x STR bite) and 38 STR by using only 10 out of a maximum possible 31 evolution points at level 20. In other words, you'd still be able to be competent in melee and have plenty of points left over for increased ability score (Cha) x4 if it was allowed.
And yes, there are low-level spells whose saves actually matter. Being able to use a persistent (from a lesser rod) grease spell to get the enemy to drop his weapon, for instance. It's unlikely to work as is, but it would actually have a decent chance of success with the +8 CHA. Glitterdust is another low level spell - giving it the saving throw of a level 6 spell is powerful (considering you're only expending level 2 slots).
Even with 30 Charisma, the DC on a 1st level spell is only 21. A 20th level Fighter is going to have a Reflex save of 12 as a bare minimum (6 base, +1 from 12 Dex ie 10+ioun stone, +5 resistance). That's a 40% maximum success rate for a standard action that doesn't really change the course of the battle much at all (any Fighter who doesn't have a second weapon that is nearly as good, if not as good, as his primary is dumber than a box of rocks). It's a waste of an action when the Summoner could instead use gate, maze, mass charm monster, dominate monster, wall of stone, or other, much more powerful and useful spells.
By level 20, which is what we're talking about, 1st level spell slots are less useful than the standard actions they represent. You have far more spells prepared/available than you have combat actions per day in 99% of cases by mid levels, let alone level 20, even as a Summoner.
Maxed out charisma at level 20 would be 36, not 30. 20 starting, 5 from levels, 5 from a book, and 6 from a headband. With spell focus and GSF, the DC for a level 1 spell is 26. You'll get persistent spell on it without changing the slot with a rod. With that taken into account, the fighter with +12 reflex (which is admittedly very poor) has an 87% chance of failing his save, a 97% chance if you add in the +8 CHA you think synthesists should have access to.
Admittedly 12 is a low save. The poor save for a CR20 is supposed to be 17. Against +17, the DC 26 persistent grease will have a 64% chance of affecting the enemy. With the +8 CHA you want to give synthesists, the +17 save would fail 84% of the time.
In any case, these spells are not completely irrelevant at level 20, especially not in a universe where synthesists walk around with 44 CHA at level 20.
Making an enemy drop his weapon or fall prone can create a decided combat advantage, especially in concert with the rest of the team's actions. But grease is one of the less useful spells, I'll admit. Glitterdust's effect remains powerful though, as most enemies are screwed if they're blind, and it's at a DC of 27. With Persistent spell, that's not bad against enemies that aren't casters. Heck, I might even go with Spell Perfection (Glitterdust) at level 15, which would boost the DC up to 29 and allow for a free metamagic feat applied to it (quicken, or persistent to save on rods?). With the +8 you want to give synthesists, that mere level 2 spell could be up to DC 33.
While the DCs as they are make low-level spells unattractive, your +8 charisma would make synthesists the only class whose low-level spells are actually offensively viable.
You can make large biped with 7 primary natural attacks (one being a 1.5x STR bite) and 38 STR by using only 10 out of a maximum possible 31 evolution points at level 20. In other words, you'd still be able to be competent in melee and have plenty of points left over for increased ability score (Cha) x4 if it was allowed.
Might want to check your math on the evo points.... IIRC large size alone costs 4 points and the str and con bumps cost twice as much to get, 4 points for every +2. That is 20 evos for a +16 str at 18th (1,6,12,18). Out of 23 base class evo points, for a (16+16) 32 str, you spent 20. That leaves you 3 points to play with. Which would make it 6 evo points to play with at 20.
You could get more points by playing the right race as well as by repeated feat selection (which means you aren't taking useful combat feats, making you a worse combatant in many ways) and your AC is horrible unless you sink all the rest of you evo points into it.
You can make large biped with 7 primary natural attacks (one being a 1.5x STR bite) and 38 STR by using only 10 out of a maximum possible 31 evolution points at level 20. In other words, you'd still be able to be competent in melee and have plenty of points left over for increased ability score (Cha) x4 if it was allowed.
Might want to check your math on the evo points.... IIRC large size alone costs 4 points and the str and con bumps cost twice as much to get, 4 points for every +2. That is 20 evos for a +16 str at 18th (1,6,12,18). Out of 23 base class evo points, for a (16+16) 32 str, you spent 20. That leaves you 3 points to play with. Which would make it 6 evo points to play with at 20.
You could get more points by playing the right race as well as by repeated feat selection (which means you aren't taking useful combat feats, making you a worse combatant in many ways) and your AC is horrible unless you sink all the rest of you evo points into it.
Base STR: 16
Ability score increases: 3Book of STR: 5
Belt of STR: 6
Large: 8
That's a strength of 38 with no ability score increase evolutions spent on strength.
Edit: Actually, I forgot the +8 STR you get just from being a level 20 eidolon. So that's 46 STR with no ability score increase evolutions spent on STR.
For reference, the 10 points were:
4 Large
1 Claws (legs)
2 Bite and bite 1.5x STR
2 Limbs (arms)
1 Claws (Arms)
But it makes a nice point. Who needs all that STR. I think you could very easily be a synthesis summoner who spent evolutions in STR and then bumped your Cha. You have full BAB, a good Str, and a good Cha. You may not be the fighter when it comes to smacking things but your a spellcaster too. I always get the feeling when reading the synthesis threads that people forget that and just want to play a multi-armed eidolon.
druids have similar spell dc's, can have a similar str/survivability, can wear armor, have a better spell list, and still have their pet.
Druids are not the combat beasts that they were. I doubt they want to reintroduce it -> hence...No cha bumps
Druids do not have similar Save DC. Druids have to choose. Be melee or be spellcaster. They just can not pull off both anymore. A Druid has to start with a Str of 18 and always bump it to go melee. And as a result, their Wis goes down the drain (starting ~13 is usual). The other choice is a high Wis and then Str is down the drain (starting with a 7). As a result caster druids don't melee, they hide as tiny birds in the sky.
Druids do have a more robust spell list (considered an inferior list when compared to cleric or wizard list) and more spells per day that is true (still lags behind other 9 lvl spell casters though). But a summoner is no slouch. They may have a small spell list but it is chock full of goodies. You get most of the best spells for a wizard. Cast a make the game easy spell and then go beat some stuff down.
Druids may or may not have a pet. This is a tough choice for a druid. Because they can either melee or can't. If they go the melee route they usually stick with the pet (flanker). However, if they go spellcaster alot of druids ditch the pet for a domain. Why? Because compared to other full spellcasters they do not have as many spells per day and may run out before the day is up.
I completely understand the no bumping of Cha for a synthesis. They went through all the trouble of neutering the druid in pathfinder. Spellcasters with full BAB, high Str and primary caster stats can be a force to recon with.
w/ 44 str, you have upwards of a +36 or so to hit and you do d8 +30 + d6 energy on a bite and d6+22+d6 energy on a claw attack. So you are only going to be effective against mooks and you do not bypass much of any DR since you likely got the enhancement bonus from gmf or an AoMF.
Wait, the enhancement from an AoMF doesn't go through DR? Greater magic fang specifies that its bonus doesn't let the weapon go through DR higher than magic. The AoMF does not, and further AoMF seems to be actually equivalent to real weapon enhancement bonuses (lets you get special abilities etc). So I'm pretty sure this character is going through all DR except /- and /epic.
Anyway, this character has the ability to FULL ATTACK from 100 feet away (he flies, so he probably has a charging lane) with power attacks that hit an average CR 20 95% of the time even when he doesn't charge. His six claws do 1D6+30+1D6 and his bite does 1D8+42+1D6. That's 270.15 damage per round, from a starting position up to 100ft away. That's more than a sword-and-board fighter is going to achieve when standing right next to the enemy, and the synthesist probably has just as much AC as that fighter.
I haven't looked at level 20 DPR lately for other classes, but I'm sure he's going to be behind an optimized two-handed fighter, two-weapon fighter, archer. But he also has more AC than any of those classes, AND he has good spellcasting powers (remember, this build is WITH the +8 CHA).
I think this shows that even if he was allowed to take +8 CHA, he could be a very effective melee combatant in addition to having nearly the highest spell DCs in the game (there are sorcerer bloodlines that put the sorc 1 higher for only spells of a specific subschool of enchantment).
15 BAB
17 STR
5 AoMF
1 cracked pale green ioun stone
1 weapon focus
-4 power attack
-1 large
=+34, +36 while charging
Furthermore, you picked up neither detection evolutions, energy resistance evolutions,no fast healing, no spell resistance(which might be nice considering other party members can only partially heal you anyway), no reach, nor tactical evolutions for this guy. Rogues and monks are likely going to outdamage you(this guy isn't sounding like old codzilla to me).
First, those ever-so-useful evolutions like resistances etc. Fighters don't get them, and neither does anyone else as a class ability. Note that you can blow a 2nd level spell on the fly for immunity to a particular energy type for minutes/level (lesser evolution surge). The fighter is super jelly. Darkvision is also par for the course for senses - while the synth could get blindsight or see in su darkness, that would just have been an advantage he'd have over other classes.
Rogues might outdamage him if they get a full attack of sneak attacks (perhaps by being greater invisible the whole battle thanks to Invisible Blade), but they're a class that's built on having good damage output in that particular scenario.
Monks probably will not have this much damage output, at least not without optimization.
We're talking about the synthesist being able to push out 270 DPR while also being a caster with a primary casting stat of 44!
You can get all 7 primary natural attacks, all 5 points into improved natural armor, large, pounce, and if you wanted to buy it the +8 to CHA. You'd essentially be the best AC tank in the game, you'd have respectable DPR to go along with it, AND you'd have the highest normal spell DCs in the game (ignoring the sorcerer bloodlines that only work on certain spells). That's just not reasonable. If you want to do a whole bunch of things well, you're not going to be the master of every domain, and +8 CHA puts the synthesist dangerously close to that (good damage output and ability to pounce, AC that's probably best in the game, a bunch of utility spells, and save DCs higher than anyone else in the game). It's just too much.
Behold....SynthZilla!
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is this synthesist supposed to be an unoptimized example? Perhaps you should redo your example then and come back with a properly optimized version.
This is a synthesist with 44 CHA. It's not optimized specifically for melee combat. If it was, it would have multiple 1.5x bites and at least 2 higher STR, and it wouldn't be trying to be a pseudo-full caster. Also, more feats that would help the melee part of the build, like Rhino Charge.
Here, I'll stat one up real quick.
31 points (half-elf)
4 Large
1 bite 1.5x
2 Limbs (Arms) [for being able to cast and hold stuff]
1 Claws (Feet)
8 (4 heads)
8 (4 more 1.5x bites)
1 pounce
4 STR +2
1 Improved Damage (Bite)
1 Improved Natural Armor
That's about as optimized as a synth build is going to get for pure damage output. Note that I don't use the energy attacks evolution, since so many things just resist the whole packet.
This leads to a melee attack pattern (with power attack) of:
2 Claws +35 (+37 while charging) 1D6+31, 5 Bites +35 2D6+44
That's a DPR against an average CR20 (AC 36) of 323.19. Given that the CR20 enemy has an average HP of 440, that's pretty good.
AC can still be around 52, which is enough that a CR20 enemy only hits on a 20, even after a charge.
Furthermore, your hit chance will be quite a bit lower than even the shield spec'd fighter.
Wow, the shield spec fighter has more than a 95% chance to hit on all attacks? Crazy. And here I thought you couldn't get any better than that.
I hope you caught that. Since all the synthesist's attacks are at full BAB, they all have a 95% chance to hit. You literally can't have a better chance to hit than that. Ah, but I see you'te trying to say the synthesist is ineffective against higher-AC enemies. The Shield spec fighter has a much lower average attack bonus, so against high AC enemies it's in fact his DPR that drops more swiftly (until the AC gets so high that the fighter's last iteratives only hit on a 20).
Average attack bonus matters more than highest attack bonus.
Many fighters can get their hit chance up around 50 to 55 without too much difficulty.
Please, show me that.
Without buffs (which the synthesist could use just as well), here's what a fighter can have:
20 BAB
13 STR (36 STR is max for a fighter)
5 enhancement
1 competence (Ioun stone)
2 focus and greater focus
6 weapon training (+2 from gloves of dueling)
-6 power attack (if we're comparing apples and apples)
= 41
So the Maxed out STR single-weapon fighter (sword and boards and TWF don't start with 20 STR, so we're pretty much talking about Two-handed guys) is attacking at +41/+36/+31/+26. Because he has iteratives, that ends up being lower than the synthesist's attack rolls: 33.5 average vs. 34 or 36 while pouncing for the +8 CHA synthesist. And that's a maxed out single-class fighter. His non-power attack average attack roll is 1.5 higher than the synthesist's, but it also hurts the fighter's damage more than the synthesist's.
Also note that a synthesist has a great many more combat options due to being a spellcaster. He can drop greater invisibility and he'll be attacking at a bonus 2 higher and against FFAC. He does a whole lot of utility stuff the fighter wishes he could. And he has a lot better saves than the fighter. You said that the Synthesist has to worry about being banished - but the synthesist is a whole lot less vulnerable to save or suck spells in general than the fighter. The synthesist probably has at least a +22 on will saves, so he's a lot better off in that department than the other frontliners.
Furthermore, you are already dropping feats and gold on both melee and casting.
Out of 880k, only ~300k is needed to max out melee (+5 AoMF, +6 belt of STR, +5 Book of STR, Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone). Another ~175k maxes out CHA. Another 29k maxes out saving throws. Another 50k gets a deflection ring. There's still another 330k to work with for general stuff.
Also, I spent 3 feats out of 10 on melee: power attack and two weapon focuses. A lot of summoner spells ignore SR, so you don't even need spell penetration. 7 feats is enough for the summoner's spellcasting.
That's a DPR against an average CR20 (AC 36) of 323.19. Given that the CR20 enemy has an average HP of 440, that's pretty good.
Just for comparison, I'll knock out what's essentially the highest DPR you can get on a single-class two-handed fighter. Two-weapon fighters can probably get slightly more than this, but not by much and I'm less familiar with building them.
Relevant feats
Improved Crit
Weapon Focus + greater
Weapon Specialization + greater
Power attack
On all attacks but the first, he gets 2x STR on his attacks instead of 1.5x. Also, on all attacks he gets +4/-1 ratio for power attack, so +24/-6.
He'll have a +5 weapon, +6 weapon training (gloves of dueling), and the same Ioun stone I've been using on the other builds.
+5 Fauchard +41 1D10+58 and +5 Fauchard +36/+31/+26 1D10+65
All attacks have 15-20/x3 crit range and all threats automatically confirm.
That's an unbuffed (just like the synthesist) DPR of 387.475. When he doesn't start right next to the enemy, though, it's only a DPR of 109.275, while the +8 CHA synthesist can full attack in most instances. The fighter is better in one particular scenario (offensively when he starts out right next to the enemy), but he's worse in every other regard (ability to self-buff, offense when he's further away from the enemy, HP, AC, reflex saves, will saves, synthesist has evasion, social scenarios [we're talking about 44 CHA here!]). Also in his favor, the fighter will have about 1-3 higher of a fort save than the synthesist.
The synthesist is already very good at being more than a jack at all trades. It doesn't need the ability to combine being one of the best melee tanks with the best offensive casting. It's enough that he's good at everything and great at some things.
2. I meant an optimized caster oriented synth that attempts to span both casting and melee. IE, as good at melee as you can get while keeping the bonuses to casting stats.
Alright. I've shown that even blowing points on a +8 CHA (if it was allowed), a synthesist can still make an offensively good and defensively great melee combatant. That's not balanced, when a level 20 monk or rogue or fighter is basically just good at melee combat up close, and even going all in on casting a synthesist can hold their own in the front lines with these guys.
2a. the reason why I mention an optimized caster oriented synth is because how good they are at both will require a mixed expenditure of feats, items, and evolutions.
And I showed that there's enough to get Large and 7 primary attacks and do good melee damage even when you go for +8 CHA. 3 feats out of 10 on melee leaves plenty of room for casting feats, and 300k out of 880k on melee leaves plenty of room too.
3. Also so far all your example synths have poor fortitude saves. not the most impressive tank if he falls to save or dies.
Greater shielded meld leads to the synthesist having saves close to what the fighter has, so there's not much of a difference. Actual save or dies that I know of need multiple types of saves anyway, and most save or sucks target will (good luck fighter tank!)
What save or die spells are you referring to?
In any case, it would probably be more useful to discuss this at a level besides level 20, since level 20 play really isn't balanced to begin with and very few games actually happen at that level.
Its very simple. They will never allow the synthesis to take evolutions to bump Cha or any spell casting ability. It makes the synthesis too close to the old 3.5 druid. Paizo went out of their way to separate the druids ability to melee and spell cast effectively. It can not be done to great effect any more. They are not going to reverse course and bring that back no matter how hard you want it. A character should never be allowed to be both a very effective melee and a very effective spellcaster. It is overbalancing and leads to Druid/Codzillas. Hence my earlier joke.
Behold....SynthZilla!
..... Maybe, IDK, have not seen one in play yet, but I AM trying my hardest to make one.
Its very simple. They will never allow the synthesis to take evolutions to bump Cha or any spell casting ability. It makes the synthesis too close to the old 3.5 druid. Paizo went out of their way to separate the druids ability to melee and spell cast effectively. It can not be done to great effect any more. They are not going to reverse course and bring that back no matter how hard you want it. A character should never be allowed to be both a very effective melee and a very effective spellcaster. It is overbalancing and leads to Druid/Codzillas. Hence my earlier joke.
The spell like abilities are fine. However, where does it say you can up your charisma with evolutions, I thought they were restricted to physical stats!?!?
You basically walked into a discussion of what the synthesis would be like if you COULD bump Cha. The gist is that Omelite and I (mostly him backing things up with great examples of builds that include Cha bumps) agree that bumping Cha makes the synthesis way to powerful. Hence my Synthzila comment. Thepuregamer on the other hand sees no problem with this.
Its very simple. They will never allow the synthesis to take evolutions to bump Cha or any spell casting ability. It makes the synthesis too close to the old 3.5 druid. Paizo went out of their way to separate the druids ability to melee and spell cast effectively. It can not be done to great effect any more. They are not going to reverse course and bring that back no matter how hard you want it. A character should never be allowed to be both a very effective melee and a very effective spellcaster. It is overbalancing and leads to Druid/Codzillas. Hence my earlier joke.
There's so much offensive power behind summoners and synthesists that I don't see a need for any of the handful of save based spells on the summoner list, so they can keep the cha bump. After reading up on the faq and looking over how I would build one, there's not enough points in my designs for it anyways.
I'm really happy with the way synth has turned out...now I just need to get into a game and play one, I'm dying to.
I created a summoner(synthesist) 8/magus 8 build. See the full stats here in this thread.
Do synthesists double up on hit points from constitution increasing items?
For example, my 8th-level summoner has 50 hp, as does his eidolon (who only has 6 HD).
When fused, he has 50 hp and 50 temporary hp. That much is clear.
But what if he puts on a belt of mighty constitution +4? The belt continues to function while fused. That is also clear.
Does the fused synthesist end up with...
...66 hp and 50 temp hp...
...66 hp and 62 temp hp...
...50 hp and 62 temp hp...
...while wearing the belt?
I'm thinking the second one, but I'm looking for confirmation.
Yeah I just made a preliminary eidolon evolution and feat build. If you could check mine and tell me what you think please.
Does the SUMMON EIDOLON spell allow me to wear the eidolon as a suit after it has been dismissed? Or does it actually bring about the eidolon as a separate creature?
If it is the latter, is it possible to summon the eidolon while fused with it?
Does the SUMMON EIDOLON spell allow me to wear the eidolon as a suit after it has been dismissed? Or does it actually bring about the eidolon as a separate creature?
If it is the latter, is it possible to summon the eidolon while fused with it?
You re fuze when you cast the spell, though you can no longer touch creatures with protection spells up and it is susceptable to dispel magic. It also lasts clvl mins, ofcourse.
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Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?Just as a Str11 character wearing a belt of strength +2 bumps him to Str13 and allows him to take Power Attack, you can do this. You just couldn't use the feat without the belt/eidolon-suit.
What happens when a synthesist gains inherent bonuses to physical stats before he has split form? Is his eidolon suit's stats increased or his own or both?If you apply the inherent bonus to the summoner's physical ability score, that ability score is replaced by the eidolon's ability score. So if you want to apply an inherent bonus to your eidolon-suit's physical ability score, use the item/spell/etc. while fused so it applies the bonus to the eidolon's ability score.
The comparison you make to a belt/eidolon suit is weird. Is an eidolon suit considered an adjustment? or do his stats completely replace a summoners? ex. humanoid eidolon suit +6 str, +2 dex, +2 con ? I had a grasp on it as their physical stats completely replace the summoner's ones.
what happens to a summoner's saves. ex. a 1st level summoner with a 14 con , and his eidolon suit with a 13 con. is his fort save adjusted down 1 while wearing the eidolon suit?
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and can a synthesist in a quadruped or serpentine form eidolon still cast spells? it says he can use all his abilities. just checking that he can still cast.
The FAQ was changed from the original ruling. Your eidolon must now have hands before you can wield items / cast spells with somatic components..
Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).
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but that goes against what they printed in Ultimate Magic. what happened to a summoner has access to all his abilities ? spellcasting is a HUGE ability to block by form. require evolution points to be spent on. its evolution tax.
do they restrict you on vocal components too? or can you take natural spell to cast spells while fused in quadruped or serpentine form to bypass somatic components?
especially since the FAQ contradicts itself :
Yes, but the fused character's natural attacks are still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level. For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 natural attacks per round, whether those natural attacks are from the eidolon, the synthesist, or a combination of the two.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe
I don't understand how they can say its an eidolon suit, and you can't cast while you're inside it in one breath, but in another they'll let you make attacks of your own during a combat, and stack those with the eidolon.
I also don't get the armor restriction. the book says you get your gear. and you get the eidolons armor bonuses and natural armor bonuses. it doesn't say you use the eidolon's natural armor and armor. RAW it should allow you to use whatever light armor you're wearing, and add the eidolon's natural armor bonus to your AC.
medium and heavy armor are out b/c they would still incur spell failure chance with summoner spells.
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nevermind. i see wearing regular armor would exacerbate the eidolon's already high AC problems.
i would still like to know if a fused eidolon can wear bracers of armor. or if the summoner were wearing them , if they would function for the fused eidolon. it seems like it should, its not any better bonus than just casting mage armor, and its sinking gp into defense to get a more consistent bonus than extended mage armor.