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One Synthesist Summoner Thread to rule them all


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Omelite wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Omelite wrote:
This is absolutely false. No one has 40 AC by level 10.
Casters do. My normal human fighter had AC 30 by level 10.

Casters have less AC than fighters. They get Mage Armor, the shield spell if they waste an action on it, DEX, and deflection ring/natural amulet.

Please, stat me up a caster who has 40AC at level 10. I'd love to see it.

Quote:
Quote:
That's an absolute non-sequitur. If you're taking 30 damage a blow, that means having high AC is important. High AC stops enemies from hitting at all.
Exactly what I said. The question isn't "how high is AC 40?"; the question is "How do I get AC 40 so the enemies don't kill me in two rounds."
You don't need AC 40 to not get killed in 2 rounds. As you said, a fighter can get away with 30. I really hope you're not saying that fighters are incapable of handling combat. Enemies only hit him about half the time. A caster's main defense isn't AC, it's not being right next to the enemies and having the tanks absorb the blows.

1) Why don't you do it yourself, optimizing is a good learning experience. 1st clue "hybrid" 2nd clue "doesn't require full caster levels to get 8-9th level spells."

2) Maybe in an MMO, this a table top. There is no such thing as a "tank" unless your gm is being nice or hasn't got a clue. Intelligent creatures don't see the big tin can and go mindlessly right to them after the guy 10' behind fireballed the living snot out of them. The closest you will see to a tank is a battlefield control type with reach and a narrow hallway. Otherwise the "tank" gets ignored and walked past.


Skylancer4 wrote:


1) Why don't you do it yourself, optimizing is a good learning experience. 1st clue "hybrid" 2nd clue "doesn't require full caster levels to get 8-9th level spells."

2) Maybe in an MMO, this a table top. There is no such thing as a "tank" unless your gm is being nice or hasn't got a clue. Intelligent creatures don't see the big tin can and go mindlessly right to them after the guy 10' behind fireballed the living snot out of them. The closest you will see to a tank is a battlefield control type with reach and a narrow hallway. Otherwise the "tank" gets ignored and walked past.

The only kind of caster who can get 40AC by level 10 is a Cleric/Holy Vindicator.

It's simply not possible to get 40AC by level 10 with a wizard or sorcerer by level 10, or really even to get close.

By tank I meant a person who is capable of absorbing blows, and who typically engages the enemies in melee combat. A sorcerer/wizard stays further back from the enemies (who are usually in melee).

Talking to you guys I'm wondering if you're even playing the same game I am. 40AC is nowhere near standard at level 10, especially for casters who stay in the back. And while it's not possible to literally compel the enemies to attack you like in WoW and the like (except with antagonize), engaging enemies in melee combat usually lowers the chances that they'll get to the party's backline archers/casters.


Even with holy vindicator, I would like someone to show how the lvl 10 cleric/vindicator is getting to 40 ac. I am seeing something like 10 base +11 armor(2 enhancement) +4 shield(2 enhancement) +2 deflection +2 na +1 dex +5 sacred= 35 and I just spent 25k out of 62k on just armor class. What are we gonna do next? fight defensively and use combat expertise all the time? defender weapons cost more gold and you still have to attack with them.


The AC is too high is not just a synthesist issue. It is really a general summoner issue. The Eidolon's natural AC progression is way too high. They need to cut it in half or at least get rid of the improve natural armor evolution.


Omelite wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Omelite wrote:
This is absolutely false. No one has 40 AC by level 10.
Casters do. My normal human fighter had AC 30 by level 10.

Casters have less AC than fighters. They get Mage Armor, the shield spell if they waste an action on it, DEX, and deflection ring/natural amulet.

Please, stat me up a caster who has 40AC at level 10. I'd love to see it.

Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.

I'm sure someone else could do better.

Quote:


You don't need AC 40 to not get killed in 2 rounds. As you said, a fighter can get away with 30.

Maybe with 20 Con and a Cleric standing behind them

Quote:
I really hope you're not saying that fighters are incapable of handling combat.

From experience, yes, I am. A creature with a +20 to hit is going to have multiple attacks and doing 20 to 40 damage a blow. The max possible HP for a fighter with 20 Con is what, 150? Great, let's assume the opponent does 30 damage a blow and misses 50% of the time. They can go ~10 rounds with a CR appropriate creature for their party. Hopefully the max so they opponent can be killed. Technically less than 10 rounds because the opponent will have at least 2 attacks a round in a full round action and while the secondary will have less chance to hit, they can still do it. Gods forbid there is MORE than one opponent.

Quote:
Enemies only hit him about half the time. A caster's main defense isn't AC, it's not being right next to the enemies and having the tanks absorb the blows.

A caster, by medium to high levels, is a better frontline tank than the fighter.


Gignere wrote:
The AC is too high is not just a synthesist issue. It is really a general summoner issue. The Eidolon's natural AC progression is way too high. They need to cut it in half or at least get rid of the improve natural armor evolution.

A normal summoners eidolon doesn't have as much AC as a synthesist by far, because it costs a great deal of cash to get both the AC of the summoner and eidolon up. While it's true that an eidolon standing between melee enemies and the summoner is a little daunting, that's kind of the specialty of the summoner. Any archers or casters can still rip into the 'squishy summoner'.

It's my opinion that a synthesist pretty much does a melee fighters job better, but that's just me. A normal summoner has alot more utility, like holding off spell casting to counter spells, performing ride checks to deflect hits, and casting buffs/heals while big E wrecks faces.

Cartigan wrote:

Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.

I'm sure someone else could do better.

How much of that is up during the suprise round...?


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Calypsopoxta wrote:


How much of that is up during the suprise round...?

Not relevant to the point.

Calypsopoxta wrote:


It's my opinion that a synthesist pretty much does a melee fighters job better, but that's just me.

A melee Fighter was always the worst person at melee by mid levels.

Well besides the Monk.


Cartigan wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:


How much of that is up during the suprise round...?
Not relevant to the point.

When we're throwing phrases around like "you need a 40 AC to not be dead in 2 rounds" I'd say it's pretty relevent.


Calypsopoxta wrote:
Gignere wrote:
The AC is too high is not just a synthesist issue. It is really a general summoner issue. The Eidolon's natural AC progression is way too high. They need to cut it in half or at least get rid of the improve natural armor evolution.

A normal summoners eidolon doesn't have as much AC as a synthesist by far, because it costs a great deal of cash to get both the AC of the summoner and eidolon up. While it's true that an eidolon standing between melee enemies and the summoner is a little daunting, that's kind of the specialty of the summoner. Any archers or casters can still rip into the 'squishy summoner'.

It's my opinion that a synthesist pretty much does a melee fighters job better, but that's just me. A normal summoner has alot more utility, like holding off spell casting to counter spells, performing ride checks to deflect hits, and casting buffs/heals while big E wrecks faces.

Cartigan wrote:

Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.

I'm sure someone else could do better.
How much of that is up during the suprise round...?

No a few posts up someone statted up an Eidolon level 10 not a synthesist with nothing spent on defense gear and got 36 ac without any shield bonuses.

He goes on to post that a synthesist would have 4 additional shield ac from his abilities. However the normal eidolon has the same because the summoner can cast shield on the friggin Eidolon without wasting actions.


Cartigan wrote:


Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.
I'm sure someone else could do better.

lol trolling.

cartigan wrote:
A caster, by medium to high levels, is a better frontline tank than the fighter.

A general statement like this is not going to be easily accepted after your previous example of how a wizard gets awesome ac. If you had said a divine caster by mid to high lvls was a better tank than a fighter and you offered up a definition of what you mean by tank than I could see lines of agreement. Though in terms of survival a fighter should still be pretty good, just not sure if a fighter is going to be able to keep enemies away from their targets by mid to high lvls.


Gignere wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:
Gignere wrote:
The AC is too high is not just a synthesist issue. It is really a general summoner issue. The Eidolon's natural AC progression is way too high. They need to cut it in half or at least get rid of the improve natural armor evolution.

A normal summoners eidolon doesn't have as much AC as a synthesist by far, because it costs a great deal of cash to get both the AC of the summoner and eidolon up. While it's true that an eidolon standing between melee enemies and the summoner is a little daunting, that's kind of the specialty of the summoner. Any archers or casters can still rip into the 'squishy summoner'.

It's my opinion that a synthesist pretty much does a melee fighters job better, but that's just me. A normal summoner has alot more utility, like holding off spell casting to counter spells, performing ride checks to deflect hits, and casting buffs/heals while big E wrecks faces.

Cartigan wrote:

Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.

I'm sure someone else could do better.
How much of that is up during the suprise round...?

No a few posts up someone statted up an Eidolon level 10 not a synthesist with nothing spent on defense gear and got 36 ac without any shield bonuses.

He goes on to post that a synthesist would have 4 additional shield ac from his abilities. However the normal eidolon has the same because the summoner can cast shield on the friggin Eidolon without wasting actions.

Where in my post did I say anything about a normal summoners eidolon AC not being high. I said the item budget(slots included) allowed a synthesist to have a much greater AC. I don't think an eidolon with a 36 AC at level 10 is a problem. I do recognize that a synthesist can get an even larger AC and have no "squishy summoner" to bypass it with, with my implication being that this is a synthesist 'problem' if any, and not a general summoner problem.


Calypsopoxta wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:


How much of that is up during the suprise round...?
Not relevant to the point.
When we're throwing phrases around like "you need a 40 AC to not be dead in 2 rounds" I'd say it's pretty relevent.

Only if you are misconstruing the argument on purpose. This isn't "YOU NEED 40AC WHEN THEY JUMP OUT AND ATTACK YOU WHEN YOU DON'T SEE IT COMING!"; this is "need 40AC to survive a single, normal, see-it-coming combat."

A Fighter just can't do that. By mid levels a monster either misses you or beats your to death handily - when you aren't getting destroyed utterly by spells.


thepuregamer wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.
I'm sure someone else could do better.
lol trolling.

Lol AC-generated-from-Core-only-spells

cartigan wrote:


A general statement like this is not going to be easily accepted after your previous example of how a wizard gets awesome ac.

You mean my previous statement where I showed the Wizard just generated +21 AC against evil creatures, in addition to DR 10/Adamantine, a 50% miss chance, and an overlapping 50-80% miss chance?


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Rounds per lvl: displacement and haste
Minutes per lvl:shield, protection from evil, cat's grace, monstrous physique, and mirror image.
hours per lvl: mage armor and stoneskin.

This example is 100% bs because:
1. you are spending 10 spells to do it.
2. only 2 of those buffs are going to last all day.
3. 6 of them you are only going to have up for 10 minutes. which basically means that you are not going to have them up all day or at the beginning of the first encounter.
4. 2 of them are only going to be around for 10 rounds.

So 2 rounds of every encounter you are definitely buffing your ac and 6 more rounds of most encounters, you are also buffing your ac. I am not sure if your party is going to know you are even there.

So yes cartigan, you are currently being a super troll.


Calypsopoxta wrote:
Where in my post did I say anything about a normal summoners eidolon AC not being high. I said the item budget(slots included) allowed a synthesist to have a much greater AC. I don't think an eidolon with a 36 AC at level 10 is a...

Like I posted for most encounters the normal Eidolon will have 40 AC. 40 AC is high since CR approriate creatures needs a 20 to even hit the Eidolon. Also by level 10 a normal summoner can devote all his defense slot for the Eidolon if he so chooses, because he can cast Marionette Possession and basically gain all the benefits of a Synthesist with none of the drawbacks.

Have the Eidolon carry the suspended body in a big bag of holding, the summoner cant even be targetted.


Cartigan wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:


How much of that is up during the suprise round...?
Not relevant to the point.
When we're throwing phrases around like "you need a 40 AC to not be dead in 2 rounds" I'd say it's pretty relevent.

Only if you are misconstruing the argument on purpose. This isn't "YOU NEED 40AC WHEN THEY JUMP OUT AND ATTACK YOU WHEN YOU DON'T SEE IT COMING!"; this is "need 40AC to survive a single, normal, see-it-coming combat."

A Fighter just can't do that. By mid levels a monster either misses you or beats your to death handily - when you aren't getting destroyed utterly by spells.

A well built fighter does just fine as part of a balanced team. A poorly built fighter with a poorly played team deserve what they get from their GM. Either you misconstrued the argument, or you're a troll.

The argument here is whether a caster can pack a 40 AC at all at level 10 in a single, normal, see-it-coming combat. I asked for the surprise round to allow for "these spells are permanent, cast frequently" ect. to build a defense against a preposterous number of rounds casting defensive spells. If the caster does manage to survive through all of their self buffing, the fight will have ended with them not having contributed much aside from the attacks they did receive.

On top of that, I see nothing in your stack of buffs that trumps a fighters potential AC. Only the displacement/mirror image effects even stand a chance, but once again, the argument here is AC, not survivability. If you want to go for survivability, those spells specifically counter your argument of "Of course by level 10, you have 40 AC or you get your face beat in", which doesn't seem to include magical concealments and misdirections.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gignere wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:
Where in my post did I say anything about a normal summoners eidolon AC not being high. I said the item budget(slots included) allowed a synthesist to have a much greater AC. I don't think an eidolon with a 36 AC at level 10 is a...

Like I posted for most encounters the normal Eidolon will have 40 AC. 40 AC is high since CR approriate creatures needs a 20 to even hit the Eidolon. Also by level 10 a normal summoner can devote all his defense slot for the Eidolon if he so chooses, because he can cast Marionette Possession and basically gain all the benefits of a Synthesist with none of the drawbacks.

Have the Eidolon carry the suspended body in a big bag of holding, the summoner cant even be targetted.

"You project your soul out of your body and into the body of a willing creature. This possession is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. The target’s soul shares its body with you; it is helpless but can still use its senses. You and the target’s soul can communicate telepathically as if using a common language.

You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and natural attacks (such as a bite or sting). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural abilities.

As a standard action, you can return to your own body, ending the spell. While your soul is possessing the target, your body is helpless. If the host body is slain, you return to your own body if it is within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is slain). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain."

So basically every hour and a half you pull "yourself" out of the bag of holding to recast this spell. That is, until you run out of 3rd+ level spells. You aren't considered adjacent to your eidolon, so no shield ally. You get your single round of actions. You get whatever your aspect granted you in number of attacks (this could possibly work out). You get half the hit points of a synthesist (not in the same plane so you can't feed it hit points). To make this all completely infeasible, all of the eidolons evolutions are [Ex] or better...won't work. This is all assuming you don't suffocate in the bag of holding, or die before you place yourself in the bag as combat begins if you didn't have it going, since you have no defensive items whatsoever.

You're better off just putting yourself in an adamantine coffin on its back with breather holes...


Calypsopoxta wrote:
A well built fighter does just fine as part of a balanced team.

You mean a balanced team that buffs his AC, to-hit, and damage?

Quote:
The argument here is whether a caster can pack a 40 AC at all at level 10 in a single, normal, see-it-coming combat. I asked for the surprise round to allow for "these spells are permanent, cast frequently" ect. to build a defense against a preposterous number of rounds casting defensive spells.

All but one of those spells are at LEAST minutes per level.

Quote:
On top of that, I see nothing in your stack of buffs that trumps a fighters potential AC.

Please provide a Fighter's "potential" AC at level.


10 Base AC
10 Armor (Mithril Full Plate +2)
6 Shield (Mithril Tower Shield +2)
2 Deflection (Ring of Protection +1)
2 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor +2)
5 Dexterity (16 Base +Buff or Potion to 20)
1 Dodge (Dodge Feat)

36 AC, 18k Gold left.


Is that a ring of protection 1 or 2?


Cartigan wrote:

Is that a ring of protection 1 or 2?

My bad, it's a +2. I had it budgeted as such.


Cartigan wrote:

Is that a ring of protection 1 or 2?

Partially made up for by Mithral Full Plate +2 being AC 11 unless I've missed something.


KrispyXIV wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Is that a ring of protection 1 or 2?

Partially made up for by Mithral Full Plate +2 being AC 11 unless I've missed something.

Bleh, yeah I had it in my head full plate added 8 and not 9, so 37 AC.

He could further be hasted to 38 and shrunk to 39, use combat expertise, fighting defensively...but then we're getting a little carried away...


KrispyXIV wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Is that a ring of protection 1 or 2?

Partially made up for by Mithral Full Plate +2 being AC 11 unless I've missed something.

It should be.

However, I find having a tower shield and 20 Dex unlikely.

Moreover, a Tower Shield is wooden, not metal (per any description I can find). Neither a Fighter's class ability nor Darkwood increase the max dex on the shield. So drop armor by 2 for a Mithral +2 Heavy Steel Shield.

Quote:
He could further be hasted to 38 and shrunk to 39, use combat expertise, fighting defensively...but then we're getting a little carried away...

Reducing your ability to hit and do damage is not the direction you want to go to stay alive.


Cartigan wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Is that a ring of protection 1 or 2?

Partially made up for by Mithral Full Plate +2 being AC 11 unless I've missed something.

It should be.

However, I find having a tower shield and 20 Dex unlikely.

Moreover, a Tower Shield is wooden, not metal (per any description I can find). Neither a Fighter's class ability nor Darkwood increase the max dex on the shield. So drop armor by 2 for a Mithral +2 Heavy Steel Shield.

Quote:
He could further be hasted to 38 and shrunk to 39, use combat expertise, fighting defensively...but then we're getting a little carried away...
Reducing your ability to hit and do damage is not the direction you want to go to stay alive.

I'd like a link to anywhere that implies a tower shield is wooden and only such. Additionally, the fighers 7th level grants a +2 maximum dex bonus to any armor they use. Shields are armor. The tower shield actually has a +6 max, the full plate is at 5.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Calypsopoxta wrote:


I'd like a link to anywhere that implies a tower shield is wooden and only such.

"This heavy wooden shield..."

Quote:
Additionally, the fighers 7th level grants a +2 maximum dex bonus to any armor they use. Shields are armor.

Shields are technically shields. The class ability needs to be qualified.


Cartigan wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:


I'd like a link to anywhere that implies a tower shield is wooden and only such.

"This heavy wooden shield..."

Quote:
Additionally, the fighers 7th level grants a +2 maximum dex bonus to any armor they use. Shields are armor.
Shields are technically shields. The class ability needs to be qualified.

Ahh, the flavor text description. Oh well, point made regardless. Fighter AC > Caster AC. Caster isn't getting 40 AC any time soon once a battle begins, if at all. 40 AC isn't the only way to survive a fight at 10th level, especially since a CR 11 creature has a +19 to hit at best. Eidolons have a lot of AC. Synthesists have more.

If this was a big problem, it would have been solved a year ago. It's a strong class and the archetype is arguably stronger(or at least tougher). Let the GM decide if he lets the character in or not.

I would much rather be getting some FAQ updates out of this thread than discussing the balance issues involved with the class.


Calypsopoxta wrote:


Ahh, the flavor text description.

Like I said, "per any description I could find." That is the only one I found.

Quote:
Oh well, point made regardless. Fighter AC > Caster AC. Caster isn't getting 40 AC any time soon once a battle begins, if at all.

The caster can have a flat 23 AC. If he knows the battle is coming, that can be bumped up +13. 36 AC. On minute per level spells. Plus the other magics. (Bracers of Armor +5, 18 Dex, Ring of Force Shield)

Quote:
and the archetype is arguably stronger(or at least tougher).

No, it isn't. That is a foolhardy statement already addressed much earlier in this thread.


Cartigan wrote:


Shield (+4 shield) + Mage Armor (+4 armor) + Haste (+1 dodge) + Protection from Evil (+2 deflection) + Cat's Grace (+2 Dex) + Monstrous Physique III [Diminuitive] (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +4 size) = +19 armor, +21 against Evil creatures. Let's add Displacement, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin for things better than armor.
I'm sure someone else could do better.

You counted wrong: Base 10 + 4 Shield + 4 Armor + 1 Dodge + 1 NA +4 Size= 24. 26 vs Evil (Protection from evil)

Then you forgot Ioun Stone Dusty Rose (+1 insight), Amulet of NA +2 (as an enhancment bonus stacks with Base from MP 3 spell)= raises AC to 27, 29 vs evil.
You also forgot the actual Dex bonus of Mr. Mage (Base 16?) Add in 2 cast's grace + 3 MP 3 = +8.
35 Armor class, 37 vs evil.

Done.


Cartigan wrote:
Calypsopoxta wrote:


Ahh, the flavor text description.

Like I said, "per any description I could find." That is the only one I found.

Quote:
Oh well, point made regardless. Fighter AC > Caster AC. Caster isn't getting 40 AC any time soon once a battle begins, if at all.
The caster can have a flat 23 AC. If he knows the battle is coming, that can be bumped up +13. 36 AC. On minute per level spells. Plus the other magics. (Bracers of Armor +5, 18 Dex, Ring of Force Shield)

Bracers of armor does not stack with mage armor. My point is ultimately that a fighter can achieve the same or better AC with less prep/rounds spent self buffing. The arguement would be better served applying only what buffs/gear the other cannot use.

Cartigan wrote:
Quote:
and the archetype is arguably stronger(or at least tougher).

No, it isn't. That is a foolhardy statement already addressed much earlier in this thread.

Troll. Done here.


Calypsopoxta wrote:


Bracers of armor does not stack with mage armor.

Yeah, it does. Notice how I subtracted 8 from my original calculation?

My point is ultimately that a fighter can achieve the same or better AC with less prep/rounds spent self buffing. The arguement would be better served applying only what buffs/gear the other cannot use.

Quote:


Troll. Done here.

I will take two separate characters with two separate sets of attacks over a single one with a total number of attacks limited by level any day.

Contributor

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I've talked to Jason and updated the FAQ about share spells. To sum up: yes, a regular summoner is able to cast humanoid-only spells on his eidolon (duh); yes, a synthesist can too because it doesn't alter share spells.

There is a bit of weirdness about the synthesist and enlarge person that Jason wants to think about for a bit because of the "eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist" rule. Basically, if you're Medium and the eidolon is Medium, should it be assumed that the spell affects you "both," or is it a weird case where the summoner "outgrows" the Medium eidolon. Likewise, if you're Medium and the eidolon is Large, you already have the Large benefits, so turning into a Large summoner inside a Large eidolon-shell shouldn't have any effect. Anyway, he's going to let that "roll around in the old rock tumbler," as he puts it.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I've talked to Jason and updated the FAQ about share spells. To sum up: yes, a regular summoner is able to cast humanoid-only spells on his eidolon (duh); yes, a synthesist can too because it doesn't alter share spells.

There is a bit of weirdness about the synthesist and enlarge person that Jason wants to think about for a bit because of the "eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist" rule. Basically, if you're Medium and the eidolon is Medium, should it be assumed that the spell affects you "both," or is it a weird case where the summoner "outgrows" the Medium eidolon. Likewise, if you're Medium and the eidolon is Large, you already have the Large benefits, so turning into a Large summoner inside a Large eidolon-shell shouldn't have any effect. Anyway, he's going to let that "roll around in the old rock tumbler," as he puts it.

In the case of the synthesist, wouldn't Enlarge Person affect both since the summoner cannot be targeted separately from his eidolon. So the relative size of the eidolon and the summoner remains the same.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I've talked to Jason and updated the FAQ about share spells. To sum up: yes, a regular summoner is able to cast humanoid-only spells on his eidolon; yes, a synthesist can too because it doesn't alter share spells.

Thank you.

Quote:
There is a bit of weirdness about the synthesist and enlarge person that Jason wants to think about for a bit because of the "eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist" rule.

That at least presents an interesting conundrum, especially since Share Spells is changed from OGL.

Contributor

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Omelite wrote:
DeSt wrote:

Haven't found that issue with search.

Synthesist being Humanoid doesn't have any proficiencies with natural weapons, correct?

Common sense dictates that the ruling will be that yes, they're proficient.

A creature is always proficient with its natural weapons, even if it gains those natural weapons from something other than its original race: barbarian rage power, magic spell, magic item, class ability, or whatever. So a synthesist using his eidolon-suit's natural weapons is proficient with them.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I've talked to Jason and updated the FAQ about share spells. To sum up: yes, a regular summoner is able to cast humanoid-only spells on his eidolon (duh); yes, a synthesist can too because it doesn't alter share spells.

Thank you.

Quote:
There is a bit of weirdness about the synthesist and enlarge person that Jason wants to think about for a bit because of the "eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist" rule.

That at least presents an interesting conundrum, especially since the change to Share Spells from OGL. However, Gignere makes an equally interesting point on a synthesist being a single creature.

Contributor

FAQ about max attacks updated, with more info added about summoner's limbs vs. eidolon's limbs and the requirements and limitations of having extra or too few.

Contributor

Gignere wrote:
In the case of the synthesist, wouldn't Enlarge Person affect both since the summoner cannot be targeted separately from his eidolon. So the relative size of the eidolon and the summoner remains the same.

That is how *I* think it should work, yes.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
FAQ about max attacks updated, with more info added about summoner's limbs vs. eidolon's limbs and the requirements and limitations of having extra or too few.

Thank you! Haha I can make Saint Seiya now. Synthesist/Monk. This time the ruling is much clearer and consistent with the normal Eidolon.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
FAQ about max attacks updated, with more info added about summoner's limbs vs. eidolon's limbs and the requirements and limitations of having extra or too few.

yeah that is a bit better. Before it was like the synthesist got to continue using his own limbs in addition to his eidolon's limbs but he was limited to a max number of attacks.

If I read it correctly now, the synthesist is limited by the eidolons natural attack limit and he can only use the eidolons arms basically(it sounded like you said he can only use his arms if his eidolon has arms which translated to me that he basically can only use the eidolon's limbs while fused).

This is preferable to me since the synthesist was already taking an offensive hit by losing a whole extra set of actions in every round. To then limit all his attacks seemed like a bit of overkill.

Contributor

FAQ about synthesist and swallow whole

FAQ about synthesist and aspect/improved natural armor


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

FAQ about synthesist and swallow whole

FAQ about synthesist and aspect/improved natural armor

Ok just a couple more questions:

Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?

What happens when a synthesist gains inherent bonuses to physical stats before he has split form? Is his eidolon suit's stats increased or his own or both?

Contributor

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Gignere wrote:
Can you use the fused physical stats to qualify for feats? Or must the synthesist use his own stats?

Just as a Str11 character wearing a belt of strength +2 bumps him to Str13 and allows him to take Power Attack, you can do this. You just couldn't use the feat without the belt/eidolon-suit.

Gignere wrote:
What happens when a synthesist gains inherent bonuses to physical stats before he has split form? Is his eidolon suit's stats increased or his own or both?

If you apply the inherent bonus to the summoner's physical ability score, that ability score is replaced by the eidolon's ability score. So if you want to apply an inherent bonus to your eidolon-suit's physical ability score, use the item/spell/etc. while fused so it applies the bonus to the eidolon's ability score.


Gignere wrote:
What happens when a synthesist gains inherent bonuses to physical stats before he has split form? Is his eidolon suit's stats increased or his own or both?

I would wager that, like racial bonuses, inherent bonuses to stats affect only your scores and not the replacement scores you get from the eidolon.

To give the eidolon inherent bonuses you'd have to cast consecutive wishes on it after you get Split Forms.

I'd wager that I've just been ninja-corrected by SKR


Yeah, I would like to know about the feats as well. I would hope they would be treated as virtual feats are.

I would say all bonuses barring ones from leveling up carry over to the summoner only, and not the twin form eidolon.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

FAQ about synthesist and swallow whole

FAQ about synthesist and aspect/improved natural armor

Any chance you guys are re-examining the Skilled/Increased Ability score ruling at all? There were a few posts about the inconsistency in the current ruling a while back in the thread, and they might have gotten lost in the wall of posts.

Here's essentially what the problem is:

The skilled evolution gives the Eidolon a +8 racial bonus on a certain skill. Taking Skilled (Linguistics) would ordinarily have no effect on the synthesist, since the synthesist does not use the eidolon's skills - the only way this seems to be justified is via the "the synthesist gains use of the eidolon's evolutions" clause, which lets the synthesist gain the benefit from the Skiled evolution herself, applying the bonus to her own skill rather than the eidolon's.

However, that same phrase that seems to be the only way to justify letting Skilled work for the synthesist seems to also indicate that the synthesist would get her own copy of Increased Ability Score (Intelligence) if the eidolon took that evolution (or would get to "use" the eidolon's copy i.e. gain the benefit from it herself as well).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How does split form work exactly? Does the eidolon gain skills and feats when it is split? If so, how are they determined? At 20th-level? Or should I have been tracking them since level 1 (though they are largely useless till I gain split form)?

Does the synthesist lose the eidolon's physical ability scores, saves, temporary hit points, etc. while split?

It seems vague all around and in need of clarification.

Contributor

Omelite wrote:
However, that same phrase that seems to be the only way to justify letting Skilled work for the synthesist seems to also indicate that the synthesist would get her own copy of Increased Ability Score (Intelligence) if the eidolon took that evolution (or would get to "use" the eidolon's copy i.e. gain the benefit from it herself as well).

It's basically a ruling to prevent players from cheesing out an extra +2 to the caster's casting ability score by selecting the evolution. Them's the breaks.

Ravingdork wrote:
How does split form work exactly?

At level 20, you use the normal eidolon rules to figure out what your 20th-level eido's stats would be if you weren't a synthesist. When you split, you become just-you and the eidolon-suit becomes eidolon-if-you-were-not-a-synthesist.

Ravingdork wrote:
Does the synthesist lose the eidolon's physical ability scores, saves, temporary hit points, etc. while split?

Yes, though "both have the same evolutions" and "effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon." So you lose out on the phys scores, saves, temp hp, but you both have the evolutions, your "team" has two creatures' worth of actions, can basically double the effect of some buffs (if you had stoneskin when fused, you both have that, etc.).


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Omelite wrote:
However, that same phrase that seems to be the only way to justify letting Skilled work for the synthesist seems to also indicate that the synthesist would get her own copy of Increased Ability Score (Intelligence) if the eidolon took that evolution (or would get to "use" the eidolon's copy i.e. gain the benefit from it herself as well).

It's basically a ruling to prevent players from cheesing out an extra +2 to the caster's casting ability score by selecting the evolution. Them's the breaks.

Ravingdork wrote:
How does split form work exactly?

At level 20, you use the normal eidolon rules to figure out what your 20th-level eido's stats would be if you weren't a synthesist. When you split, you become just-you and the eidolon-suit becomes eidolon-if-you-were-not-a-synthesist.

Ravingdork wrote:
Does the synthesist lose the eidolon's physical ability scores, saves, temporary hit points, etc. while split?
Yes, though "both have the same evolutions" and "effects and spells currently targeting the fused synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon." So you lose out on the phys scores, saves, temp hp, but you both have the evolutions, your "team" has two creatures' worth of actions, can basically double the effect of some buffs (if you had stoneskin when fused, you both have that, etc.).

So does split form (at 16, right?) grant the eidolon a skill set and feat set while active...?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Omelite wrote:
However, that same phrase that seems to be the only way to justify letting Skilled work for the synthesist seems to also indicate that the synthesist would get her own copy of Increased Ability Score (Intelligence) if the eidolon took that evolution (or would get to "use" the eidolon's copy i.e. gain the benefit from it herself as well).
It's basically a ruling to prevent players from cheesing out an extra +2 to the caster's casting ability score by selecting the evolution. Them's the breaks.

Ah. I thought it was a poor rules interpretation based on how the rules are written, but I definitely agree that it's a good balance decision.

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